Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

No brainer. Decent backup if it comes down to it and opens any number of possibilities come draft day. If anybody thinks they know what the Jags are targeting, they're drunk.

(03-28-2018, 09:55 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 09:27 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]So if the player you pick is a need it cant be BPA?  Fournette was a need and BPA, Ramsey, was a need and BPA, Fowler was a need and BPA, Jack and Cam were also needs and BPA

Pulled this from a dated article:

Quote: DRAFTING NEEDS: If any team could preach drafting "best player available" in every round, it would be Jacksonville, which has numerous holes. But Bradley acknowledges the draft is more about filling needs. "Is it really best available?" he said. "We say 'best available,' but is it? No, need obviously plays into it. I think it's best available if someone's there and it's like, 'Are you kidding me? He's here?' Then you have those conversations of, 'We've got to take this guy.'"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf...b/8774215/

Take that FWIW. But that is coming from someone who was in the draft meetings and debates and sat in the war room with Caldwell.

Both BPA and need factor into it for every GM. Some claim they are BPA, some claim they draft for need, but mostly they try their best to combine the two. 

Interestingly, Shack Harris claimed to be a BPA, but his 1st round picks were never BPA, always need. Caldwell claimed to be a needs drafter, but LT was the Jags most solid position when he drafted Joeckel.

(03-28-2018, 10:12 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 09:55 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]Pulled this from a dated article:


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf...b/8774215/

Take that FWIW. But that is coming from someone who was in the draft meetings and debates and sat in the war room with Caldwell.

Both BPA and need factor into it for every GM. Some claim they are BPA, some claim they draft for need, but mostly they try their best to combine the two. 

Interestingly, Shack Harris claimed to be a BPA, but his 1st round picks were never BPA, always need. Caldwell claimed to be a needs drafter, but LT was the Jags most solid position when he drafted Joeckel.

The idea is to find the medium where BPA meets a need. That’s why I always find it funny when BPA proponents always feel the need to justify why drafting 5 DT’s in a row makes sense. I think Caldwell has done a decent job at finding that balance.

(03-28-2018, 10:03 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 09:52 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know, I'm more of the belief that them covering all bases now, it sets them up to let the board fall how it may and they can take the BAP. Maybe it's QB, maybe it's TE, maybe a Guard, maybe OT, maybe WR, maybe LB. I don't think any of those positions are completely out of the question at #29. I think they've worked themselves into the perfect spot with FA and they don't have to worry about bundling up picks in order to get that "one guy".

Now, I'm not saying that's not the case, they very well could be eyeing one, or two certain guys and are going to go after them hard. My feeling is just that they covered all bases so they could go anywhere they want at #29 and truly take the BAP.

That could certainly be the case as well and I haven’t ruled that out as of yet. I just don’t get that feeling based on the history of our front office. Caldwell historically has never been the “sit back and let the draft come to him” kind of guy. He’s traded up multiple times to get “his guy”. I think he’s traded back a grand total of once since being here. Couple this with the fact that the feeling around the building is that we are going “all in” for this year and it wouldn’t shock me in the least if we are aggressively targeting someone who they believe can tip the scales in our favor. They understand that if we move up, it will cost us a good portion of our picks, but that’s ok - because the vast majority of our needs were filled in FA.

Hes never really had to sit back and wait for the draft to fall to him in the 1st round though. Now that we'll be picking at the end of the 1st, it's much harder to try and predict who might still be there at #29, rather than top 5.

Yea he has did some moving up, but moving up a few spots into the 2nd/3rd/4th isn't nearly as big, or costly as moving up into the high-mid 1st round though.

One thing that's definitely for sure, it's going to be a very interesting draft.

Being traded to a team like Jacksonville,coming to the state of Florida, the guy probably feels like he just won the lotto

For sure. Backup for a perennial loser in Cleveland...

Or backup for an ascending team next to the beach..

A lot more motivation to make this team.

(03-28-2018, 06:42 PM)PF* Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 05:58 PM)Jagsfan32277 Wrote: [ -> ]Yup, with his accuracy and dink and dunk,  he fits the Jaguars philosophy, run the football, no turnovers,ball control, play excellent defense and special teams.  Now that the Jaguars got their 2nd QB, no need to waste the 29th draft pick on some experiment developmental rookie garbage tier qb.  Expect the Jaguars to draft BAP road grader nasty o-linemen and nasty BAP defensive players so the Jaguars can be the new bullies of the NFL.

Your best post ever in your checkered career.

Low bar

Seems to me he's a younger, cheaper, more mobile, more accurate version of Henne. It would be nice to have a starting caliber QB as a backup but most teams don't have that. Until and unless we get one, don't waste time wringing your hands over the backup QB. Wring them over something meaningful like the loss of Colvin.

(03-28-2018, 02:59 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 02:48 PM)BklynJag Wrote: [ -> ]I'd rather have Manziel

Going on a little Twitter rampage about Kessler being better than Blake?

Sure take a spoiled brat that showed his work ethic during his time with the Browns.  Spending more time parting instead of working on his future as an NFL quarterback. Just the type of player you want in your locker room right! Wrong! Just another post that shows your football acumen.

(03-28-2018, 03:41 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 03:20 PM)Dumptruck Wrote: [ -> ]Immobile, noodle arm, and regularly concussed. But it is a conditional 7th so kind of a wash. Hopefully this doesn’t move the needle as far as needing a QB2 somewhere in the draft.

He's not immobile.

Agreed. He's by no means a prototypical mobile QB, but he's elusive enough in the pocket to buy time when necessary.

Watching some footage of him throwing, he definitely lacks some velocity, but looks pretty smart and not terribly inaccurate.

If you need to move the ball downfield with the solid run game and a back-up at QB, he looks capable of hitting those shallow crossers,  quick in- routes, or comebacks.  Wouldn't trust him on the out routes and I'd limit the deep stuff to single coverage targets in PA.

Could be a solid back-up.

---

As several have mentioned, predicting the Jags early draft picks is going to be a total crap shoot now.
They have so many ways to go after covering their backsides at several positions in free agency.
QB2, WR, TE, and OL all saw some help with new acquisitions.

RG seems glaring to many of us, but how do Cough-Well really feel about Cann?  
TE could certainly use help, but does the ASJ add give them flexibility to wait a while before taking one? Could be.
LB is a mystery. Could definitely use depth, but do they like Blair Brown at SAM? Do they want another stub backer early?
WR could be left alone, or it could have another bigger body added to shore up the X spot.
RB could easily be ignored until the late rounds, or they could grab a stud spell-back to make #27 part of 1,2 punch.
CB could use depth and competition at nickel. But when?  
SS is an interesting spot to look toward. Church is no spring chicken. Do they look to the future at safety this soon?
DE  Is Fowler truly a consideration to trade as some speculate?  Do they look to draft his replacement? 

So many options.

Time to draft Will Hernandez and mike gesicki in rounds 1 and 2..

(03-29-2018, 09:37 AM)chris hill Wrote: [ -> ]Time to draft Will Hernandez and mike gesicki in rounds 1 and 2..

I could get behind this.

(03-28-2018, 09:48 PM)VondyP Wrote: [ -> ]you know what good teams do? trade for Browns QBs

The good ones trade for them.

The great ones just pick them up in free agency.

Kessler reminds me of a less polished Chad Pennington. limited arm but very accurate; on a bad team (Browns & Jets respectively) it's hard to shine, but with the right roster (Pennington in Miami) can be effective (like 11-5 and winning the division ... even though Brady was out it's still impressive).

Kessler has a 6:3 TD:INT ratio in the NFL & a career 64% completion %. That's actually pretty solid considering he was on the talent devoid Browns and never had the benefit of throwing to Josh Gordon.

He's no threat to Blake's job (barring a training camp multi-week meltdown). But if he were to be forced into action, he'd hand the ball off 30 times, run play action and convert a few third downs. He seems to go through reads well and take what the defense gives him. Doesn't take unneccessary risks, wont carry the team but won't give the game away .. in other words perfect game manager for a backup QB.

Obviously he's limited by his arm strength, he can't make every throw and that might lead to the Safeties creeping up on him to clog passing lanes. He could also use some more polish on his footwork; he can buy time but loses some of his trademark accuracy when he's throwing on the run or under pressure in the pocket (Garroppolo had similar problems coming out in the draft). I'm curious to see how he'll perform with a better Oline, a good running game for support, and better pass catchers than he had in Cleveland. IDT he's a long term answer and if he's under center for the season we'll need Fournette to have a 2k season in order to contend. But if he's called to come in for a game or two, I can see him managing us effectively to scrape out some gritty wins!

Bottom Line; kid was a 2016 3rd rounder, was a 3 year starter in the Pac-12, and has 10+ starts in 2 years with solid stats everywhere but the W column (but hey it's the Browns..) for a conditional 7th rounder next year in 2019 I'd say it's a no risk move that gives us incredible flexibility in the draft this year! ... He can't be worse than Henne lol.

Lmao, I love how you guys think we are/were gonna draft Lamar Jackson.. We got Mr. Old fashioned TC calling the shots no way he allows Caldwell to draft that guy. Coughlin is going to go for the stereotypical pocket passer if we draft a QB.

(03-28-2018, 10:17 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 10:12 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]Both BPA and need factor into it for every GM. Some claim they are BPA, some claim they draft for need, but mostly they try their best to combine the two. 

Interestingly, Shack Harris claimed to be a BPA, but his 1st round picks were never BPA, always need. Caldwell claimed to be a needs drafter, but LT was the Jags most solid position when he drafted Joeckel.

The idea is to find the medium where BPA meets a need. That’s why I always find it funny when BPA proponents always feel the need to justify why drafting 5 DT’s in a row makes sense. I think Caldwell has done a decent job at finding that balance.

Anti-BAP people always hit you with the BOMBASTIC five OTs in a row or now five DTs in a row.

Taking the best player available regardless of position is not like that mythical stuff.

BAPRP is predicated upon the truth you want to draft the absolute best football players to be on your side. Just like in the school yard, you know which kids can play football and which ones might be better at Chess. So you pick the best football players you can and hope the Chess guy lands on the other captain's team. If you want to shock that system by picking the Chess kid, just remember you by-passed a guy who in ten minutes of school yard play is gonna tackle you so hard he knocks the breath out of you. 

Perhaps then BAPRP might make sense? Probably not.

Scouts observe players. They grade players based upon their talent, skills perfection, and athleticism. Higher grading players at the top. Less talented at the bottom. The NFL helps teams that are lousy by inverting the draft order so that bad teams have access to top quality players. It's a no brainer that teams destitute of talent will hopefully grab the best talent the college ranks. It works until a lousy team fools itself into thinking, "we ain't so bad," and they continue to ignore higher caliber talent for what players they identify as filling a need.

This "needs" drafting leads a team to decline drafting a highly talented football player at one position for a significantly less talented player they usually claim fills a team need or provides "depth" at a position they deem to be talented enough.

Drafting the best player available regardless of position stimulates competition within the team. The ONLY way a team gets better is through spirited competition battles for starting players. Once a team becomes competitive from within that team reaches a point where they can begin to compete within their division. Winning a division leads to the playoffs, etc. When the team is talent-ladened they become Super Bowl contenders on a year in year out basis.

As mentioned, scouts grade players. On almost every draft board there are "clusters" of players who draw the same draft grade. This can be exactly the same grade or it can be near enough to the same scouting score that a team may consider drafting a 6.8 with the same conviction of cluster-busting a gaggle at 6.9 or 7.0, but probably not a 6.7 or lower. If there is one player at 7.1, however, you draft that player regardless of what position he plays. 

Eddie Edface OG 7.3
Will McBilly DT 7.1
Tom Tosser QB 6.3
Cash Money CB 5.9

If you "need" a OG, take Eddie. If you "need" a DT, take Billy. If you need a QB, you take either OG or DT because they are much more talented than the QB. If you "need" a CB, you do NOT draft Cash Money. That's over-drafting to fill a need and it does two things. First it cheapens the value of the draft pick the NFL has given you. Second, your team is less talented than if you take Eddie or Will. Cash Money has a value of a third round pick. Drafting him takes a first round pick and devalues it significantly. If Cash moves along in three years all you can possibly do is trade him away for a far less valuable draft pick. 

If you view value boards which share the scouting grades at any typical grade such as 6.2 you will find more than two players earned that grade, but they play diverse from each other. You might see a OT, OT, OG, CB, LB, or QB at the same grade, or, a grade near enough. Well? If you have just drafted a 7.4 QB in the first round, you can draft a second QB in this round, if you need two, or you have the flexibility to avoid drafting FIVE OTs in a row due to the fact that scouting grades almost always spawn small clusters of equally talented players at diverse positions.

Taking the best player available regardless of position isn't a plague, it's the most logical approach to filling out a roster. As Vic Ketchman always said, "Why would I not want the most talented player I can find on my team? I don't care what position he plays, I want talented football players." I probably read that twenty times before I realized he is correct.

(03-29-2018, 01:04 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2018, 10:17 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]The idea is to find the medium where BPA meets a need. That’s why I always find it funny when BPA proponents always feel the need to justify why drafting 5 DT’s in a row makes sense. I think Caldwell has done a decent job at finding that balance.

Taking the best player available regardless of position isn't a plague, it's the most logical approach to filling out a roster.

Then why does it almost never happen?  Especially with early picks?  

Because every GM in the league understands that need must meet value.  You take the best player available that's best suited to positively impact your team. 

The more talented and complete your roster is  -- the more the sliding scale leans toward BAP/Value.
The more depleted your roster is  - the more the sliding scale leans toward need.  

90% (if not all) of the picks in the first three rounds of the NFL draft will be some combination of BAP and Need.  Not solely one or the other. 

And, no it is not "logical" to draft pure BAP.
 Not unless you just won the superbowl and have no holes to fill on your roster.  Rare exceptions occur but every GM addresses need with their draft picks whether they'll admit it or not.

(03-29-2018, 11:06 AM)NJ JagsFan Wrote: [ -> ]Lmao, I love how you guys think we are/were gonna draft Lamar Jackson.. We got Mr. Old fashioned TC calling the shots no way he allows Caldwell to draft that guy. Coughlin is going to go for the stereotypical pocket passer if we draft a QB.

I feel like you are saying something else and I just can't quite put my finger on it. Oh wait...

(03-29-2018, 01:14 PM)Setsuna00 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-29-2018, 11:06 AM)NJ JagsFan Wrote: [ -> ]Lmao, I love how you guys think we are/were gonna draft Lamar Jackson.. We got Mr. Old fashioned TC calling the shots no way he allows Caldwell to draft that guy. Coughlin is going to go for the stereotypical pocket passer if we draft a QB.

I feel like you are saying something else and I just can't quite put my finger on it. Oh wait...

While that may indeed be an issue for some people legitimately - and it sucks that it is - the post you quoted is in no way racist. 

He said "Coughlin is going to go for a stereotypical pocket passer."  

If Lamar Jackson were caucasion as the day is long and named Brent McDonaldson, he would still not be considered a stereotypical pocket passer.