(03-29-2018, 08:21 AM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ] (03-28-2018, 03:41 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]He's not immobile.
Agreed. He's by no means a prototypical mobile QB, but he's elusive enough in the pocket to buy time when necessary.
You just traded for a guy who would be A. J. McCarron's back up in Cleveland if it weren't for the NFL office voiding the trade between the Browns and Bengals this past November.
.gif "Laughing")
You can't trade him back to Cleveland, can you?
(03-29-2018, 01:25 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 01:14 PM)Setsuna00 Wrote: [ -> ]I feel like you are saying something else and I just can't quite put my finger on it. Oh wait...
While that may indeed be an issue for some people legitimately - and it sucks that it is - the post you quoted is in no way racist.
He said "Coughlin is going to go for a stereotypical pocket passer."
If Lamar Jackson were caucasion as the day is long and named Brent McDonaldson, he would still not be considered a stereotypical pocket passer.
Thank you, no idea how that could have been taken out of context to be considered racist lol... All I'm going to say is Donovan McNabb and Tebow.
Kind of a shame I even need to defend myself for the comment I made.
(03-29-2018, 01:29 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 08:21 AM)FBT Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed. He's by no means a prototypical mobile QB, but he's elusive enough in the pocket to buy time when necessary.
You just traded for a guy who would be A. J. McCarron's back up in Cleveland if it weren't for the NFL office voiding the trade between the Browns and Bengals this post November.
You can't trade him back to Cleveland, can you?
So what you're telling me is we got a backup QB? Weird. I mean, I know the jaguars were looking to bring in a backup QB, so it's crazy that we traded a conditional 7th rounder for exactly what we were looking for. Right?
(03-29-2018, 01:13 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 01:04 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ]Taking the best player available regardless of position isn't a plague, it's the most logical approach to filling out a roster.
Then why does it almost never happen? Especially with early picks?
Because every GM in the league understands that need must meet value. You take the best player available that's best suited to positively impact your team.
The more talented and complete your roster is -- the more the sliding scale leans toward BAP/Value.
The more depleted your roster is - the more the sliding scale leans toward need.
90% (if not all) of the picks in the first three rounds of the NFL draft will be some combination of BAP and Need. Not solely one or the other.
And, no it is not "logical" to draft pure BAP.
Not unless you just won the superbowl and have no holes to fill on your roster. Rare exceptions occur but every GM addresses need with their draft picks whether they'll admit it or not.
Better franchises take the best available player. Two Super Bowls in Baltimore. A pair of Super Bowls for Tom Coughlin.
https://www.news4jax.com/sports/sams-com...uars-draft
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - To figure out what the Jaguars are going to do, the best barometer is what they’ve done in the past. And you can go back to when Tom Coughlin was last making the decisions in Jacksonville.
“You want to take the best player available,” he said last week discussing how the Jaguars will make the decisions in 2017. “At least in the first three rounds. That’s how great organizations have been built. Ideally ‘best player’ and ‘need’ meet when it’s your time.”
After winning three games last year, “need” is a relative term for the Jaguars since it appears they ‘need’ everything. With the fourth selection in the draft, Coughlin said, “We think we’ll get a good football player.” And he’s right, but the draft is always fraught with potholes.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d8...e-together
"You typically go for the best-available player, and in this situation, we've been able to match up a need with the best-available player," Coughlin told NFL Network on Saturday. "So it's worked out well for us in that capacity. It doesn't always work that way, especially as you well know, when you're waiting to pick 32nd."
What Tom is saying is BAP has flexibility so that you may have options.
(03-29-2018, 02:14 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 01:13 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Then why does it almost never happen? Especially with early picks?
Because every GM in the league understands that need must meet value. You take the best player available that's best suited to positively impact your team.
The more talented and complete your roster is -- the more the sliding scale leans toward BAP/Value.
The more depleted your roster is - the more the sliding scale leans toward need.
90% (if not all) of the picks in the first three rounds of the NFL draft will be some combination of BAP and Need. Not solely one or the other.
And, no it is not "logical" to draft pure BAP.
Not unless you just won the superbowl and have no holes to fill on your roster. Rare exceptions occur but every GM addresses need with their draft picks whether they'll admit it or not.
Better franchises take the best available player. Two Super Bowls in Baltimore. A pair of Super Bowls for Tom Coughlin.
https://www.news4jax.com/sports/sams-com...uars-draft
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - To figure out what the Jaguars are going to do, the best barometer is what they’ve done in the past. And you can go back to when Tom Coughlin was last making the decisions in Jacksonville.
“You want to take the best player available,” he said last week discussing how the Jaguars will make the decisions in 2017. “At least in the first three rounds. That’s how great organizations have been built. Ideally ‘best player’ and ‘need’ meet when it’s your time.”
After winning three games last year, “need” is a relative term for the Jaguars since it appears they ‘need’ everything. With the fourth selection in the draft, Coughlin said, “We think we’ll get a good football player.” And he’s right, but the draft is always fraught with potholes.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d8...e-together
"You typically go for the best-available player, and in this situation, we've been able to match up a need with the best-available player," Coughlin told NFL Network on Saturday. "So it's worked out well for us in that capacity. It doesn't always work that way, especially as you well know, when you're waiting to pick 32nd."
What Tom is saying is BAP has flexibility so that you may have options.
Your article actually supports what NYC4jags is posting. The part you omitted was referring to positions that were in need by the Giants at the time they selected.
"
The Giants used that pick on Virginia Tech running back David Wilson, who will fill a hole created when Brandon Jacobs signed with the San Francisco 49ers in March.
"We just thought he was an outstanding producer who would complement our running backs very well," Coughlin said of the Giants' first-round pick.
Wilson rushed for 1,709 yards and nine touchdowns last season. He also caught 22 passes for one touchdown.
The Giants then drafted LSU wide receiver Rueben Randle in the second round, adding a player whom Coughlin and Giants director of college scouting Mark Ross called "NFL-ready."
Coughlin said the Giants' had Randle much higher on their own draft board and were surprised he still was available at No. 63.
Randle caught 53 passes for 917 yards and scored eight touchdowns last season for LSU.
"We think he's a big strong receiver who can go up and get the ball. He averaged almost 17 yards per catch in his collegiate career," Coughlin said. "Mario Manningham has moved on, and we have some outstanding young receivers here, but this will be very, very competitive."
(03-29-2018, 02:14 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 01:13 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Then why does it almost never happen? Especially with early picks?
Because every GM in the league understands that need must meet value. You take the best player available that's best suited to positively impact your team.
The more talented and complete your roster is -- the more the sliding scale leans toward BAP/Value.
The more depleted your roster is - the more the sliding scale leans toward need.
90% (if not all) of the picks in the first three rounds of the NFL draft will be some combination of BAP and Need. Not solely one or the other.
And, no it is not "logical" to draft pure BAP.
Not unless you just won the superbowl and have no holes to fill on your roster. Rare exceptions occur but every GM addresses need with their draft picks whether they'll admit it or not.
"You typically go for the best-available player, and in this situation, we've been able to match up a need with the best-available player," Coughlin told NFL Network on Saturday. "So it's worked out well for us in that capacity. It doesn't always work that way, especially as you well know, when you're waiting to pick 32nd."
What Tom is saying is BAP has flexibility so that you may have options.
Yeah, ummm, he's saying exactly what I'm saying. He's preaching BAP strategy but selecting the best available player
that meets a need - which is exactly what I said usually happens.
I even spelled out that many GMs won't admit it but clearly do it. You've handed me a perfect example of that.
Pure BAP selection regardless of need happens, but it's so rare it's practically a myth.
BAP is easier at the top of the draft, where grades can be wider between candidates.
With each successive pick, the pool of relatively equal grades gets bigger and bigger.
With grading being subjective, there will always be an argument that a player was/was not BAP solely because that sentiment is or isn't in agreement with our own. We must always be mindful of this.
(03-29-2018, 02:08 PM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 01:29 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ]You just traded for a guy who would be A. J. McCarron's back up in Cleveland if it weren't for the NFL office voiding the trade between the Browns and Bengals this post November.
You can't trade him back to Cleveland, can you?
So what you're telling me is we got a backup QB? Weird. I mean, I know the jaguars were looking to bring in a backup QB, so it's crazy that we traded a conditional 7th rounder for exactly what we were looking for. Right?
Post-season taught us we were a quarterback away. Off-season we pledged to upgrade QB. Mention A. J. McCarron's name and the flustered gator feathers started bawking and bawking. Yes. the Jaguars could have advanced the mission to upgrade QB by signing McCarron to bring the heat to Bortles' cold cold feet. Nothing doing.
So funny the mission to upgrade QB is now accomplished by bringing in a guy who would be A. J. McCarron's Brownie back-up, if the NFL hadn't nixed the Bengals gaining the Browns' second and third round picks.
So the Bortles supporters scoffed at A. J. McCarron coming to Jacksonville to compete for the starting QB job because he's not good enough to challenge Bortles. He's just a back-up.
But McCarron was good enough to cost the Browns a second and third round pick. And we were told that's just the Browns incompetent ways at QB.
So now the Jaguars are fired up their position with QBs knowing they've secured a guy who would have been McCarron's clipboard holder in Cleveland.
That's one big fat plate of crow to swallow.
Every draft pick is a combination of need/talent/fit/depth of talent/positional value.
(03-29-2018, 04:28 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 02:08 PM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]So what you're telling me is we got a backup QB? Weird. I mean, I know the jaguars were looking to bring in a backup QB, so it's crazy that we traded a conditional 7th rounder for exactly what we were looking for. Right?
Post-season taught us we were a quarterback away. Off-season we pledged to upgrade QB. Mention A. J. McCarron's name and the flustered gator feathers started bawking and bawking. Yes. the Jaguars could have advanced the mission to upgrade QB by signing McCarron to bring the heat to Bortles' cold cold feet. Nothing doing.
So funny the mission to upgrade QB is now accomplished by bringing in a guy who would be A. J. McCarron's Brownie back-up, if the NFL hadn't nixed the Bengals gaining the Browns' second and third round picks.
So the Bortles supporters scoffed at A. J. McCarron coming to Jacksonville to compete for the starting QB job because he's not good enough to challenge Bortles. He's just a back-up.
But McCarron was good enough to cost the Browns a second and third round pick. And we were told that's just the Browns incompetent ways at QB.
So now the Jaguars are fired up their position with QBs knowing they've secured a guy who would have been McCarron's clipboard holder in Cleveland.
That's one big fat plate of crow to swallow.
I was going to maybe debate with you but your head is so far inside of mccarron's [BLEEP] that it doesn't make any sense. I feel like I'm talking to a 10 year old with a crush.
(03-29-2018, 04:28 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 02:08 PM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]So what you're telling me is we got a backup QB? Weird. I mean, I know the jaguars were looking to bring in a backup QB, so it's crazy that we traded a conditional 7th rounder for exactly what we were looking for. Right?
Post-season taught us we were a quarterback away. Off-season we pledged to upgrade QB. Mention A. J. McCarron's name and the flustered gator feathers started bawking and bawking. Yes. the Jaguars could have advanced the mission to upgrade QB by signing McCarron to bring the heat to Bortles' cold cold feet. Nothing doing.
So funny the mission to upgrade QB is now accomplished by bringing in a guy who would be A. J. McCarron's Brownie back-up, if the NFL hadn't nixed the Bengals gaining the Browns' second and third round picks.
So the Bortles supporters scoffed at A. J. McCarron coming to Jacksonville to compete for the starting QB job because he's not good enough to challenge Bortles. He's just a back-up.
But McCarron was good enough to cost the Browns a second and third round pick. And we were told that's just the Browns incompetent ways at QB.
So now the Jaguars are fired up their position with QBs knowing they've secured a guy who would have been McCarron's clipboard holder in Cleveland.
That's one big fat plate of crow to swallow.
Narrator:
The Patriots current backup once held the clipboard for former Browns QB Johnny Manziel.
And Ben Roethlisberger.
And Byron Leftwich.
And Charlie Batch.
And Ryan Lindley.
And Brandon Weeden.
And Jason Campbell.
And Ryan Mallet.
And Jay Cutler.
And CJ Beathard.
And has a Super Bowl ring.
As a backup.
Backup... ...is what backup QBs do.
It's what they're for.
(03-29-2018, 04:28 PM)JUNGLE CAT 2017 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 02:08 PM)Achilles Wrote: [ -> ]So what you're telling me is we got a backup QB? Weird. I mean, I know the jaguars were looking to bring in a backup QB, so it's crazy that we traded a conditional 7th rounder for exactly what we were looking for. Right?
Post-season taught us we were a quarterback away. Off-season we pledged to upgrade QB. Mention A. J. McCarron's name and the flustered gator feathers started bawking and bawking. Yes. the Jaguars could have advanced the mission to upgrade QB by signing McCarron to bring the heat to Bortles' cold cold feet. Nothing doing.
So funny the mission to upgrade QB is now accomplished by bringing in a guy who would be A. J. McCarron's Brownie back-up, if the NFL hadn't nixed the Bengals gaining the Browns' second and third round picks.
So the Bortles supporters scoffed at A. J. McCarron coming to Jacksonville to compete for the starting QB job because he's not good enough to challenge Bortles. He's just a back-up.
But McCarron was good enough to cost the Browns a second and third round pick. And we were told that's just the Browns incompetent ways at QB.
So now the Jaguars are fired up their position with QBs knowing they've secured a guy who would have been McCarron's clipboard holder in Cleveland.
That's one big fat plate of crow to swallow.
Scoff. The Jags got a McCarron-quality back up in Kessler for just a Con7, a brilliant move.
(03-29-2018, 02:01 PM)NJ JagsFan Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 01:25 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]While that may indeed be an issue for some people legitimately - and it sucks that it is - the post you quoted is in no way racist.
He said "Coughlin is going to go for a stereotypical pocket passer."
If Lamar Jackson were caucasion as the day is long and named Brent McDonaldson, he would still not be considered a stereotypical pocket passer.
Thank you, no idea how that could have been taken out of context to be considered racist lol... All I'm going to say is Donovan McNabb and Tebow.
Kind of a shame I even need to defend myself for the comment I made.
Agreed. Tim Tebow was as white as they come and he was certainly no pocket passer. Warren Moon was black and he was a very good pocket passer. Being a pocket passer or a running QB has nothing to do with race. It has to do with ability to be someone who either stays in the pocket and makes tough throws into tight windows vs. someone with athletic ability who can run their way out of trouble. Personally, I only want pocket passers. I believe QB's throw and RB's run. With that said, I wouldn't care if we drafted a QB that looked like 2 Chainz, as long as he was a good pocket passer.
(03-29-2018, 06:00 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 02:01 PM)NJ JagsFan Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you, no idea how that could have been taken out of context to be considered racist lol... All I'm going to say is Donovan McNabb and Tebow.
Kind of a shame I even need to defend myself for the comment I made.
Agreed. Tim Tebow was as white as they come and he was certainly no pocket passer. Warren Moon was black and he was a very good pocket passer. Being a pocket passer or a running QB has nothing to do with race. It has to do with ability to be someone who either stays in the pocket and makes tough throws into tight windows vs. someone with athletic ability who can run their way out of trouble. Personally, I only want pocket passers. I believe QB's throw and RB's run. With that said, I wouldn't care if we drafted a QB that looked like 2 Chainz, as long as he was a good pocket passer.
Aren't you the guy who said McCaffrey would suck because he was white?
(03-29-2018, 05:34 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Scoff. The Jags got a McCarron-quality back up in Kessler for just a Con7, a brilliant move.
Oh no you didn't... you didn't just compare the darling AJ to the disgusting back up like Kessler.
Queue the wrath of JC17. Should be a good story incoming soon.
Jackson is good in the pocket just because he runs doesnt mean hes not good in pocket.
(03-29-2018, 08:43 PM)Jags02 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-29-2018, 09:17 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Watching some footage of him throwing, he definitely lacks some velocity, but looks pretty smart and not terribly inaccurate.
If you need to move the ball downfield with the solid run game and a back-up at QB, he looks capable of hitting those shallow crossers, quick in- routes, or comebacks. Wouldn't trust him on the out routes and I'd limit the deep stuff to single coverage targets in PA.
Could be a solid back-up.
As several have mentioned, predicting the Jags early draft picks is going to be a total crap shoot now.
They have so many ways to go after covering their backsides at several positions in free agency.
QB2, WR, TE, and OL all saw some help with new acquisitions.
RG seems glaring to many of us, but how do Cough-Well really feel about Cann?
TE could certainly use help, but does the ASJ add give them flexibility to wait a while before taking one? Could be.
LB is a mystery. Could definitely use depth, but do they like Blair Brown at SAM? Do they want another stub backer early?
WR could be left alone, or it could have another bigger body added to shore up the X spot.
RB could easily be ignored until the late rounds, or they could grab a stud spell-back to make #27 part of 1,2 punch.
CB could use depth and competition at nickel. But when?
SS is an interesting spot to look toward. Church is no spring chicken. Do they look to the future at safety this soon?
DE Is Fowler truly a consideration to trade as some speculate? Do they look to draft his replacement?
So many options.
With Church and Jerrod Wilson, I feel like the SS spot is set. We do need a backup for Gip tho at FS.
At QB, I like Kessler enough to go with just him and Bortles at the position. I don't see a dire need to get a QB in the draft unless you truly think he's capable of taking over the starting spot as early as mid-2019. Rudolph, Jackon or Falk can all maybe do as much, but I'd rather pass on them all and just go with the two QBs.
It was a list of options - not needs.
And Cody Davis is a great backup at FS.
The suggestion at SS was about drafting a premier 2019 replacement at SS not promoting a backup like Wilson.
This draft will be very interesting. Will they draft competition for Bortles or giving him one more full year chance to actually improve. WR? Backup RB maybe?
(03-29-2018, 09:24 PM)nhiverson Wrote: [ -> ]Jackson is good in the pocket just because he runs doesnt mean hes not good in pocket.
I'm not sure we should assume complementing his running ability is somehow a slight to his pocket ability.
He's very good at staying in the pocket and moving competently within it keeping his eyes downfield.
One of the things I believe is important is that he learns how to better protect himself. He can't take some of the hits he took at the next level.
That's why I think some polish while backing up Blake would be a good situation. I could see an RG3 trajectory if played too soon.