From the surface (not saying it will happen), it sounds like the city "can" be left holding their d___ks if the whole thing falls apart in the future (Lease doesn't get renewed, team leaves, City ends up with the bill for initial investment of lot J and upkeep)
(01-12-2021, 11:22 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]So why did they vote it down? Was it that bad of a deal for the city?
The sticking points are they clearly don't like mayor Curry and I mean they hate his guts. LOL. Another thing was the breadbox loan and the mayor and Shad Khan created this deal with secrecy and without transparency. Let's be real, this city love to stay in the old days of Jacksonville and they don't want involved in the mind and Hearts when it comes to evolving the city into something special.
(01-12-2021, 11:29 PM)jaglyn Wrote: [ -> ]From the surface (not saying it will happen), it sounds like the city "can" be left holding their d___ks if the whole thing falls apart in the future (Lease doesn't get renewed, team leaves, City ends up with the bill for initial investment of lot J and upkeep)
Exactly.
(01-12-2021, 11:29 PM)jaglyn Wrote: [ -> ]From the surface (not saying it will happen), it sounds like the city "can" be left holding their d___ks if the whole thing falls apart in the future (Lease doesn't get renewed, team leaves, City ends up with the bill for initial investment of lot J and upkeep)
I mean okay, but in the even in situation that the Jags leave Jacksonville, wouldn't the city still want to develop downtown?
I feel like a lot of people are missing the point. If the city and people don't think downtown development is important or will work no matter what, then okay do something elsewhere.
But if they want downtown developed, you will have to take on some risk no matter. Any developer will expect some greasing and "favors" because downtown Jax has not shown the momentum to drive that on its own.
Dang man, Khan finna pack up and move the team when we gonna finally get a real qb.
(01-12-2021, 11:30 PM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ] (01-12-2021, 11:22 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]So why did they vote it down? Was it that bad of a deal for the city?
The sticking points are they clearly don't like mayor Curry and I mean they hate his guts. LOL. Another thing was the breadbox loan and the mayor and Shad Khan created this deal with secrecy and without transparency. Let's be real, this city love to stay in the old days of Jacksonville and they don't want involved in the mind and Hearts when it comes to evolving the city into something special.
What do you mean 'staying in the old days of Jacksonville'? With all due respect, the old days were full of secret deals without ANY transparency. I say this as a 41 year resident of this city. Khan is reverting back to the old days when deals were hidden and payoffs were big. Why do that if he's such a transparent forward thinking businessman? I don't blame city council for not wanting to get screwed over by this guy. Get your own NFL biz together, and deal in good faith and then maybe this can move forward. You can build 'something special' without screwing over the taxpayers of Jax. Hes got plenty of $.
The team is seriously at risk of leaving now IMO. Unfortunately we do not have the revenue or even the regional fanbase that other small metro teams like New Orleans or Buffalo or Las Vegas have which makes them sustainable
We would lose the Florida Georgia game as well. That would go back to Campus or go to Atlanta. Theres no way that game is coming back annually to play in an empty white elephant stadium without the NFL.
Answers on a postcard for the other billionaires lining up to invest in Jacksonville. Downtown still looks the same as it did in the early 90s whilst other similar sized cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Orlando, Austin have all grown hugely.
The real problem with the deal is it's not big enough. The needs to be stadium renovation and lease extension in there, too. At least covering the stadium is a must, September days in the direct sun are absolutely heat stroke inducing.
It's disappointing for sure. Khan and Lamping tend to be forward thinking business men and while I do understand some of the concerns, the city council has always been pretty backwards and reactionary.
Winning solves everything. I've stated before that the timing for this proposal is bad. We've ended a season of record breaking loss which serves as a crown jewel to an era of loss (2017 aside). Couple that with a city government which operates in a state of political self-preservation and you have a bad mix. However, in this case, I can't blame them for being skeptical and I would be willing to bet Khan understands that.
Build the franchise to win. Create some headlines about the Jacksonville Jaguars other than what a woeful and chronic losing team it is and then revisit Lot J. It's a little tough for the city council members to look their constituents in the eye if they voted to obligate a quarter billion of their tax dollars to a team which is considered a chump franchise by the football world.
I want Lot J. I want stadium upgrades. But it's not difficult to understand why now is not the time to put this on the table. Next year, maybe. The year after, definitely, if the Jags have proven themselves to be a sustainable franchise on the rise.
(01-13-2021, 07:33 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Winning solves everything. I've stated before that the timing for this proposal is bad. We've ended a season of record breaking loss which serves as a crown jewel to an era of loss (2017 aside). Couple that with a city government which operates in a state of political self-preservation and you have a bad mix. However, in this case, I can't blame them for being skeptical and I would be willing to bet Khan understands that.
Build the franchise to win. Create some headlines about the Jacksonville Jaguars other than what a woeful and chronic losing team it is and then revisit Lot J. It's a little tough for the city council members to look their constituents in the eye if they voted to obligate a quarter billion of their tax dollars to a team which is considered a chump franchise by the football world.
I want Lot J. I want stadium upgrades. But it's not difficult to understand why now is not the time to put this on the table. Next year, maybe. The year after, definitely, if the Jags have proven themselves to be a sustainable franchise on the rise.
I agree. The one thing that hurt was to here lamping say flat out “lot j is dead”.
I know that is obvious but to me that send the message they have no plans to revisit this. He did add they they are moving on to their plans for the ship yards.
Just my opinion, but I think a lot hinged and started on the lot j development. Step one develop around the stadium(lot J). Step two: expand to surrounding areas(ship yard). Step three: new stadium and renew lease.
Leaping straight to ship yards is just asking to get shot down again. Even if you ignore the obvious issue around the ship yard land, the river it’s self in that area is trash. Anyone who goes out in a boat goes from sisters creek to ft George or south through Palm valley to st auggy. Why would the city develop the marina that literally only draws people during football season and even that is on weekends.
To me, this is the first step in us ending up not funding a new stadium and possibly losing our team.
Sounds pessimistic but it just seems that way IMO.
(01-13-2021, 03:36 AM)staropramen Wrote: [ -> ]The team is seriously at risk of leaving now IMO. Unfortunately we do not have the revenue or even the regional fanbase that other small metro teams like New Orleans or Buffalo or Las Vegas have which makes them sustainable
We would lose the Florida Georgia game as well. That would go back to Campus or go to Atlanta. Theres no way that game is coming back annually to play in an empty white elephant stadium without the NFL.
Answers on a postcard for the other billionaires lining up to invest in Jacksonville. Downtown still looks the same as it did in the early 90s whilst other similar sized cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Orlando, Austin have all grown hugely.
I think the owner put the cart ahead of the horse. His first priority should have been to turn the Jags into a winning culture. Upgrading this franchise has not been his first priority it has been brining in more money through side ventures.
(01-12-2021, 11:30 PM)leopold332002 Wrote: [ -> ]The sticking points are they clearly don't like mayor Curry and I mean they hate his guts. LOL. Another thing was the breadbox loan and the mayor and Shad Khan created this deal with secrecy and without transparency. Let's be real, this city love to stay in the old days of Jacksonville and they don't want involved in the mind and Hearts when it comes to evolving the city into something special.
Admittedly I don't know all the details around this project. Besides hating a political rival, their main complaint was that this was one of those "you have to approve it to know what's in it" kind of deals? Is it true the city doesnt know how much money they'd have to put in to the Lot J project, or how the revenue would be distributed, or the tax implications for Shad, etc... ? What were the unknown questions that the city was not made aware of that made them hesitant to vote yes? Seems pretty odd. If the issue was the city was putting up all the cash and Shad was getting all the profit, I could understand something like that.
(01-12-2021, 01:04 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (01-12-2021, 01:01 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ]That's just the thing, we could be in a pandemic lockdown for at least another year or two from what I've been reading.. And with TLaw coming to town, that could provide the economic boost to this franchise that could make Khan rethink London.. It's all about the revenue..
But, assuming no more pandemic at some point, is it possible that Lot J can bring in enough extra revenue on game days that Khan would no longer want to play games in London?
I'm asking a specific question. Can Lot J bring in enough extra revenue on game days that Khan would no longer want to play games in London?
I don't think that's the end point. When the shield decided they wanted to make London a yearly thing, Khan jumped at the opportunity, not only because seats weren't selling here, but the prospect of developing a second fanbase would only increase the potential revenue streams. Even if we end up with a waitlist for tickets in Duval, I don't foresee Khan abandoning London; We may not play the bulk of our schedule there, but I absolutely believe the notion of a home and road game played back-to-back is the future if the team wants to keep playing there.
Double bonus, game in London and a different event at the stadium/complex to keep Lot J pumping revenue into the pockets. Why wouldn't he opt for that?
I think the only way we get out of London is a new stadium lease that requires a full 10-game schedule to be played in the stadium, and I doubt Khan would sign off on that deal.
EDit: having read the rest of the forum, it appears this discussion is moot anyhow, move along, nothing to see here.
This town is absolutely allergic to progress.
It originally rejected the stadium proposal that brought the Jaguars here in the first place.
Shaking my head in dismay.
The following councilmembers voted against the Lot J proposal:
Council President Tommy Hazouri
Danny Becton
Matt Carlucci
Randy DeFoor
Garrett Dennis
Al Ferraro
Joyce Morgan
Anyone listening to Matt Carlucci on 1010xl right now? He is one of the council members that voted no. He isn't doing a good job of explaining his opinion. But he did say that the Jags and Curry weren't sharing any of the details of the build. Weren't showing a pro forma. No idea how much the construction costs were. Weren't showing any of the feasibility studies. Etc.... If true, that is peculiar. I'd be hesitant to vote yes as well if I had no idea what the financials were. But to be honest I have a hard time believing that was kept a secret. I'm going to ask around to see if that was true.
Al Ferraro lived in my old neighborhood. Owns Ferraro lawn service. Ran a good campaign at the time, seemed like a good guy. Now he is responsible for the inevitable move of the team.
(01-13-2021, 09:30 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Anyone listening to Matt Carlucci on 1010xl right now? He is one of the council members that voted no. He isn't doing a good job of explaining his opinion. But he did say that the Jags and Curry weren't sharing any of the details of the build. Weren't showing a pro forma. No idea how much the construction costs were. Weren't showing any of the feasibility studies. Etc.... If true, that is peculiar. I'd be hesitant to vote yes as well if I had no idea what the financials were. But to be honest I have a hard time believing that was kept a secret. I'm going to ask around to see if that was true.
I listened to it, although I didn't hear him bring Curry's name up, but I might have missed it.
He did explain the Jaguars were not responding to his inquiries about costs and other things, which threw red flags for him. Perfectly understandable. I also liked his idea that Lot J and stadium upgrades should have been negotiated in the same package. He supports the idea of a dome over the stadium, which is exactly what it needs. Several times he reiterated his ardent support for keeping the Jaguars here and said he bears the scars for supporting them in the past. His main concern with this deal is the lack of transparency from the Jaguars and the development company (whose name escapes me right now).
The most important assertion he made is the Jaguars are not leaving because Lot J didn't pass.
He's a politician, so take it for what it's worth.
(01-13-2021, 09:18 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (01-12-2021, 01:04 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]But, assuming no more pandemic at some point, is it possible that Lot J can bring in enough extra revenue on game days that Khan would no longer want to play games in London?
I'm asking a specific question. Can Lot J bring in enough extra revenue on game days that Khan would no longer want to play games in London?
I don't think that's the end point. When the shield decided they wanted to make London a yearly thing, Khan jumped at the opportunity, not only because seats weren't selling here, but the prospect of developing a second fanbase would only increase the potential revenue streams. Even if we end up with a waitlist for tickets in Duval, I don't foresee Khan abandoning London; We may not play the bulk of our schedule there, but I absolutely believe the notion of a home and road game played back-to-back is the future if the team wants to keep playing there.
Double bonus, game in London and a different event at the stadium/complex to keep Lot J pumping revenue into the pockets. Why wouldn't he opt for that?
I think the only way we get out of London is a new stadium lease that requires a full 10-game schedule to be played in the stadium, and I doubt Khan would sign off on that deal.
EDit: having read the rest of the forum, it appears this discussion is moot anyhow, move along, nothing to see here.
Khan has the team play in London to earn the revenue to contribute to the league profit sharing plan. He does it out of necessity because he can't raise the money here. That's what happens when we have a crappy team playing in a crappy stadium. People show up in London because watching American football is a novelty. Were they subjected to the same losing team week after week, Wembley would be a ghost town.