Let’s see how the players who have gone over to the LIV like their choice when it increases to 14 events next year, plus any majors they play in. The ones who have taken the money upfront will be obligated for every tournament.
I’m enjoying this drama. I don’t know why but I find it all intriguing. I like golf but it needs a shakeup every once in a while.
(07-06-2022, 07:42 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-06-2022, 02:45 PM)KingIngram052787 Wrote: [ -> ]It seems inherently unfair (and maybe against employment laws) to do that to independent contractors. If they were employees of the TOUR, then I would tend to agree more with you.
Either way, what's best for golf is best for the TOUR, and in my opinion that is allowing the players to float and do as they wish.
Quote:... the PGA Tour, like any other employer or organization, has the discretion to enact rules of conduct of its members, employees and independent contractors. One of the provisions in the PGA Tour Player Handbook and Tournament Regulations is that each PGA Tour member acknowledges the commissioner, the tour’s policy board and the appeals committee have the authority to permanently ban a member from playing in a tour co-sponsored, approved or coordinated tournaments if the member violates its regulations. The handbook also provides that a player ceases to be a member of the PGA Tour if, in the judgment of the policy board, the member commits a serious breach of the Tournament Regulations, the PGA Tour’s Code of Ethics, or otherwise conducts himself in a manner unbecoming of a professional golfer.
One such regulation generally prohibits tour players from playing in events when there is a PGA Tour-approved or sponsored event taking place at the same time. Per the handbook, players who reach the 15-event minimum (which a member must meet as a condition of their membership voting rights) are eligible for three conflicting-event releases per season, which is why so many tour players were allowed to play in the Saudi Invitational. However, the regulations also state such requests can be denied. In short, the PGA Tour likely has the discretion to decide that joining a competing tour is a serious breach of its regulations.
It's all in the rules they signed up for when they joined the tour.
Whether you think it's fair or not - it's right there in the fine print.
I understand what their rules say, it doesn't make it legal (potentially, I'm not an employment law expert, but I think that's the whole point they're getting at) which was my point. Though, I do think it's also unfair. I'm also a big golf fan and want to see them coexist because it's best for golf, so also for selfish reasons.
Also, with how strict anti-trust regulations are getting, I could see them having potential issues there. I know for a fact when it comes to OWGR points, that governing body is very concerned about that, along with the fact that Monahan is a member of that governing body. Will he recuse himself from that vote when the time comes given he has a large conflict of interest? It seems like things are going to get very interesting...
The problem the PGA tour has with LIV golfers wanting to go back and forth is that it basically makes LIV a parasite on the organism that is the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour is a huge organism, with a feeder league (Korn Ferry Tour), a senior tour, volunteers, sponsors, a TV contract, a full schedule of tournaments, etc. LIV doesn't have any of that. Right now, LIV just has 8 tournaments. So if the PGA Tour allows LIV to poach their top players, by throwing huge sums of money at them, but then allows those players to come back and forth between the two leagues, then at some point, when LIV has year round events that conflict with the PGA Tour schedule, the parasite that is LIV will kill its host, the PGA Tour. So this is an existential threat to the PGA Tour. And allowing the players to jump back and forth between tours is just giving LIV the oxygen to thrive until the point where the PGA Tour is dead.
And since the PGA Tour is headquartered here, and has their biggest tournament here, why are we not ALL supporting the PGA tour in this conflict?
Two leagues enter, one league leaves!
![[Image: tina.jpg]](https://deadshirt.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/tina.jpg)
(07-07-2022, 11:29 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]The problem the PGA tour has with LIV golfers wanting to go back and forth is that it basically makes LIV a parasite on the organism that is the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour is a huge organism, with a feeder league (Korn Ferry Tour), a senior tour, volunteers, sponsors, a TV contract, a full schedule of tournaments, etc. LIV doesn't have any of that. Right now, LIV just has 8 tournaments. So if the PGA Tour allows LIV to poach their top players, by throwing huge sums of money at them, but then allows those players to come back and forth between the two leagues, then at some point, when LIV has year round events that conflict with the PGA Tour schedule, the parasite that is LIV will kill its host, the PGA Tour. So this is an existential threat to the PGA Tour. And allowing the players to jump back and forth between tours is just giving LIV the oxygen to thrive until the point where the PGA Tour is dead.
And since the PGA Tour is headquartered here, and has their biggest tournament here, why are we not ALL supporting the PGA tour in this conflict?
LIV is here and here to stay, at least for quite some time. With that in mind, they need to be able to co-exist, or else golf and tournaments like the PLAYERS are going to be worse off.
(07-07-2022, 11:29 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]The problem the PGA tour has with LIV golfers wanting to go back and forth is that it basically makes LIV a parasite on the organism that is the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour is a huge organism, with a feeder league (Korn Ferry Tour), a senior tour, volunteers, sponsors, a TV contract, a full schedule of tournaments, etc. LIV doesn't have any of that. Right now, LIV just has 8 tournaments. So if the PGA Tour allows LIV to poach their top players, by throwing huge sums of money at them, but then allows those players to come back and forth between the two leagues, then at some point, when LIV has year round events that conflict with the PGA Tour schedule, the parasite that is LIV will kill its host, the PGA Tour. So this is an existential threat to the PGA Tour. And allowing the players to jump back and forth between tours is just giving LIV the oxygen to thrive until the point where the PGA Tour is dead.
And since the PGA Tour is headquartered here, and has their biggest tournament here, why are we not ALL supporting the PGA tour in this conflict?
You seem to be all about competition and free markets in many of your other posts, why not now?
(07-07-2022, 01:53 PM)KingIngram052787 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-07-2022, 11:29 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]The problem the PGA tour has with LIV golfers wanting to go back and forth is that it basically makes LIV a parasite on the organism that is the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour is a huge organism, with a feeder league (Korn Ferry Tour), a senior tour, volunteers, sponsors, a TV contract, a full schedule of tournaments, etc. LIV doesn't have any of that. Right now, LIV just has 8 tournaments. So if the PGA Tour allows LIV to poach their top players, by throwing huge sums of money at them, but then allows those players to come back and forth between the two leagues, then at some point, when LIV has year round events that conflict with the PGA Tour schedule, the parasite that is LIV will kill its host, the PGA Tour. So this is an existential threat to the PGA Tour. And allowing the players to jump back and forth between tours is just giving LIV the oxygen to thrive until the point where the PGA Tour is dead.
And since the PGA Tour is headquartered here, and has their biggest tournament here, why are we not ALL supporting the PGA tour in this conflict?
LIV is here and here to stay, at least for quite some time. With that in mind, they need to be able to co-exist, or else golf and tournaments like the PLAYERS are going to be worse off.
The viability of LIV to succeed comes down to its ability to land other sponsors. In today's hypocritically woke world, the Saudis will be used as a cudgel at every opportunity to squelch player acquisition and obtain broadcast rights. The problem is trying to find a benefactor who is willing to share billing with the Saudis. The Saudis have the money to float the league indefinitely, but adverse opinions may prevent it from going mainstream.
LIV is here for the next few years and gauging from the fan draw of the first two events, it has real potential to be here for the long term. Now that the DP Tour has crawled up the PGA's [BLEEP] to protect itself from the LIV boogie man, it's entirely up to the legal proceedings in the coming months and years to decide just how big of a footprint it will have.
(07-07-2022, 10:47 AM)KingIngram052787 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-06-2022, 07:42 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]It's all in the rules they signed up for when they joined the tour.
Whether you think it's fair or not - it's right there in the fine print.
I understand what their rules say, it doesn't make it legal (potentially, I'm not an employment law expert, but I think that's the whole point they're getting at) which was my point. Though, I do think it's also unfair. I'm also a big golf fan and want to see them coexist because it's best for golf, so also for selfish reasons.
Also, with how strict anti-trust regulations are getting, I could see them having potential issues there. I know for a fact when it comes to OWGR points, that governing body is very concerned about that, along with the fact that Monahan is a member of that governing body. Will he recuse himself from that vote when the time comes given he has a large conflict of interest? It seems like things are going to get very interesting...
They aren't a corporate employer.
The PGA operates under non-profit status like the NFL used to do
Players are not subject to "employee" type legalities. They don't have a players union that I'm aware of.
They signed up for what they signed up for. There is no legal objection or recourse to refute the league's rules.
A sports league demanding its members give a certain level of commitment to its own competitions ahead of other leagues is in no way illegal.
(07-08-2022, 09:35 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-07-2022, 10:47 AM)KingIngram052787 Wrote: [ -> ]I understand what their rules say, it doesn't make it legal (potentially, I'm not an employment law expert, but I think that's the whole point they're getting at) which was my point. Though, I do think it's also unfair. I'm also a big golf fan and want to see them coexist because it's best for golf, so also for selfish reasons.
Also, with how strict anti-trust regulations are getting, I could see them having potential issues there. I know for a fact when it comes to OWGR points, that governing body is very concerned about that, along with the fact that Monahan is a member of that governing body. Will he recuse himself from that vote when the time comes given he has a large conflict of interest? It seems like things are going to get very interesting...
They aren't a corporate employer.
The PGA operates under non-profit status like the NFL used to do
Players are not subject to "employee" type legalities. They don't have a players union that I'm aware of.
They signed up for what they signed up for. There is no legal objection or recourse to refute the league's rules.
A sports league demanding its members give a certain level of commitment to its own competitions ahead of other leagues is in no way illegal.
You don't have to be an employee or be part of a union to have employment law issues when classified as an independent contractor. I know this for a fact.
I do not know if there are specific issues with the PGA Tour and how they operate, it just seems odd to me to limit independent contractors from competing elsewhere if they're also maintaining their Tour status (or in Phil's case, have earned a lifetime status).
You say they're doing nothing wrong, yet this is all going to court. You may be correct, but it's not as black and white as you're making it out to be.
I know the DP Tour and PGA Tour are different and in different countries, but Ian Poulter just won his lawsuit against the DP Tour to play in the Scottish Open after they banned him from playing in it and fined him 100,000 Euros.
(07-12-2022, 11:19 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2022, 11:02 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34230611
Says the golf BILLIONAIRE…
I know you and I differ on this, but I just don't want professional golf to be completely under the control of Saudi Arabia. Especially since it requires a massive subsidy, and no one knows when they will get tired of doing that and decide to spend their money elsewhere. The PGA Tour will continue no matter who is the President of the United States, but if MBS gets assassinated or dies of cancer, the next ruler of Saudi Arabia could decide he doesn't like golf and doesn't want to pay out billions for guys to hit a little white ball.
(07-12-2022, 03:08 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2022, 11:19 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Says the golf BILLIONAIRE…
I know you and I differ on this, but I just don't want professional golf to be completely under the control of Saudi Arabia. Especially since it requires a massive subsidy, and no one knows when they will get tired of doing that and decide to spend their money elsewhere. The PGA Tour will continue no matter who is the President of the United States, but if MBS gets assassinated or dies of cancer, the next ruler of Saudi Arabia could decide he doesn't like golf and doesn't want to pay out billions for guys to hit a little white ball.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocating, or even speculating about the possibility, for Saudia Arabian control of golf. My point is Tiger Woods can express skepticism about players going to the LIV because he has talent, and money, oozing out of his pores. Everyone else isn't as blessed. Here is a chance for some of these guys to cash in with a big enough payday to set them for life. Or the opportunity to win more than they conceivably could on the PGA tour.
(07-12-2022, 05:20 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2022, 03:08 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I know you and I differ on this, but I just don't want professional golf to be completely under the control of Saudi Arabia. Especially since it requires a massive subsidy, and no one knows when they will get tired of doing that and decide to spend their money elsewhere. The PGA Tour will continue no matter who is the President of the United States, but if MBS gets assassinated or dies of cancer, the next ruler of Saudi Arabia could decide he doesn't like golf and doesn't want to pay out billions for guys to hit a little white ball.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocating, or even speculating about the possibility, for Saudia Arabian control of golf. My point is Tiger Woods can express skepticism about players going to the LIV because he has talent, and money, oozing out of his pores. Everyone else isn't as blessed. Here is a chance for some of these guys to cash in with a big enough payday to set them for life. Or the opportunity to win more than they conceivably could on the PGA tour.
Yeah I can't blame the bad or old players for taking a payday. But that's exactly what LIV is made up of and why nobody really cares about it.
(07-12-2022, 11:19 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2022, 11:02 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34230611
Says the golf BILLIONAIRE…
*Perkins Waitress Bangin' Golf Billionaire.
(07-12-2022, 10:06 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2022, 05:20 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think I've ever heard anyone advocating, or even speculating about the possibility, for Saudia Arabian control of golf. My point is Tiger Woods can express skepticism about players going to the LIV because he has talent, and money, oozing out of his pores. Everyone else isn't as blessed. Here is a chance for some of these guys to cash in with a big enough payday to set them for life. Or the opportunity to win more than they conceivably could on the PGA tour.
Yeah I can't blame the bad or old players for taking a payday. But that's exactly what LIV is made up of and why nobody really cares about it.
Or it could be the all out media and monopoly offensive against it.
Had a chat with a friend on this yesterday.
We both agreed in the end that the majors will likely have to individually decide whether or not to grant worthy LIV players exemptions to play their tournaments.
Some of you may be able to clarify, but I'm pretty sure three of the four majors are not "run by" or officiated by the PGA. Therefore allowing those tournaments' boards the ability to independently decide how to handle the situation. It may be all 4 fall under this type of situation, but I'm not as certain about the Masters.
*The Open is R&A operated.
*USGA runs the US Open.
*PGA of America (not the PGA tour) runs the PGA Championship. There is a distinction, though it may not matter in the end.
*The Masters is the one I know less about in terms of governance. Is it strictly the Augusta Nat'l GC board controlling it? If so, probably not gonna' be a welcoming place for LIV players.
Anyway - those majors could ostensibly allow LIV players to compete somehow despite the PGA's final stance - whatever it may be.
(07-13-2022, 11:36 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Had a chat with a friend on this yesterday.
We both agreed in the end that the majors will likely have to individually decide whether or not to grant worthy LIV players exemptions to play their tournaments.
Some of you may be able to clarify, but I'm pretty sure three of the four majors are not "run by" or officiated by the PGA. Therefore allowing those tournaments' boards the ability to independently decide how to handle the situation. It may be all 4 fall under this type of situation, but I'm not as certain about the Masters.
*The Open is R&A operated.
*USGA runs the US Open.
*PGA of America (not the PGA tour) runs the PGA Championship. There is a distinction, though it may not matter in the end.
*The Masters is the one I know less about in terms of governance. Is it strictly the Augusta Nat'l GC board controlling it? If so, probably not gonna' be a welcoming place for LIV players.
Anyway - those majors could ostensibly allow LIV players to compete somehow despite the PGA's final stance - whatever it may be.
Regarding the majors, you are correct. Also, the Masters is technically an invitational, so they can almost control who they do and do not invite.