(02-20-2023, 10:05 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (02-19-2023, 12:42 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]I don't count the Cheifs first as a first, more of a super early 2nd rounder if you ask me.
Overrated was my thoughts on him. And half a season of good football dosen't exaclty prove that wrong, nor does a 25 td season.
Yawn. Stop trying to downplay your hate campaign. These are just a few of your verbatim words on Lawrence:
![[Image: cjb-clown-TL.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/hGgkX3FC/cjb-clown-TL.png)
And now, you're being nearly as stupid with your crap takes on Josh Allen.
Josh Allen is better than you think he is. Just like Lawrence is.
"He sucks" Never said that
"I have no faith" - Concerning the 2022 season I wasn't expecting much and neither were you. I'd bet less than 1% of this msg board expected a playoff run.
"He can't throw a football consistently" - Accuracy issues have been a problem for the mass majority of his time as a jaguar specifically high throws.. I could probably make a 15 minute compliation for you if I had game pass.
"Where are the t law nut huggers at" I believe I said this during a game thread whilst he was in the midst of a 5 turnover game where he looked like a lost puppy.
"He hasnt had flashes" His rookie season was abysmal and that isn't an opinion, just a fact. Making 2 or 3 highlight throws in 17 games dosen't consistute a "Flash" in my opinion. Look to the Raiders game this year (a year after I said that) if you want to see what I deem a "Flash".
"His Accuracy is garbage" It most certainly was for the majority of his rookie year.
(02-20-2023, 07:52 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (02-19-2023, 01:42 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, so let me get this straight. You are doubling down on your opinions that TL is trash and so is Josh Allen? Let's take out the chance of a miscommunication here.
Can't double down on a take I never made. But to answer your question, no I don't think half a season of good football and less than 2 tds a game average qualifies as an elite QB.. basically what i'm saying is, he made huge strides going from 12-17 to 25-8 absolutely but if he were to be in the 25 td 8 int range for the remainder of his career, he'd be more in the class of an Alex Smith in my eyes.
Josh Allen is has had plenty of time to show what he is and has been a very meh player, not worthy of his draft selection at all thusfar no.
Just an FYI, but it took Smith 8 seasons before he had a single season with as many as 20 TDs, and only three such seasons in his sixteen season career. Furthermore, it took him seven seasons to get to the playoffs.
Did you ever see Alex Smith lead a 27 point comeback?
That you'd have such a laughable lack of perspective isn't surprising.
(02-20-2023, 07:57 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (02-20-2023, 10:05 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yawn. Stop trying to downplay your hate campaign. These are just a few of your verbatim words on Lawrence:
And now, you're being nearly as stupid with your crap takes on Josh Allen.
Josh Allen is better than you think he is. Just like Lawrence is.
"He sucks" Never said that
"I have no faith" - Concerning the 2022 season I wasn't expecting much and neither were you. I'd bet less than 1% of this msg board expected a playoff run.
"He can't throw a football consistently" - Accuracy issues have been a problem for the mass majority of his time as a jaguar specifically high throws.. I could probably make a 15 minute compliation for you if I had game pass.
"Where are the t law nut huggers at" I believe I said this during a game thread whilst he was in the midst of a 5 turnover game where he looked like a lost puppy.
"He hasnt had flashes" His rookie season was abysmal and that isn't an opinion, just a fact. Making 2 or 3 highlight throws in 17 games dosen't consistute a "Flash" in my opinion. Look to the Raiders game this year (a year after I said that) if you want to see what I deem a "Flash".
"His Accuracy is garbage" It most certainly was for the majority of his rookie year.
lies, lies and more lies
You're [BLEEP] pitifully bad at this, dude.
You should stop
![[Image: Untitled-design-9.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/pTnQHPwG/Untitled-design-9.png)
(02-21-2023, 12:13 AM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]https://youtu.be/LC0KGqKuN3c
Wow! I've never seen this guy before, but I really enjoy his takes. I agree with almost everything he had to say, except for when he stated Jawaan Taylor is a better RT than Josh Allen is an edge rusher. I don't agree with that at all. I'm not a fan of Taylor. Everything else he says about Allen though, I agree 100%. It pains me to say that though, because I was a fan of Allen when he was selected and I had very high hopes for him. The way this guy explained his reasoning was also in a much more cohesive and well thought out way than I ever could have ever explained it as well. I'm gonna have to look this guy up on YouTube. Thanks for posting this.
(02-21-2023, 03:35 AM)IKhan't Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 12:13 AM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]https://youtu.be/LC0KGqKuN3c
Wow! I've never seen this guy before, but I really enjoy his takes. I agree with almost everything he had to say, except for when he stated Jawaan Taylor is a better RT than Josh Allen is an edge rusher. I don't agree with that at all. I'm not a fan of Taylor. Everything else he says about Allen though, I agree 100%. It pains me to say that though, because I was a fan of Allen when he was selected and I had very high hopes for him. The way this guy explained his reasoning was also in a much more cohesive and well thought out way than I ever could have ever explained it as well. I'm gonna have to look this guy up on YouTube. Thanks for posting this.
T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
(02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 03:35 AM)IKhan't Wrote: [ -> ]Wow! I've never seen this guy before, but I really enjoy his takes. I agree with almost everything he had to say, except for when he stated Jawaan Taylor is a better RT than Josh Allen is an edge rusher. I don't agree with that at all. I'm not a fan of Taylor. Everything else he says about Allen though, I agree 100%. It pains me to say that though, because I was a fan of Allen when he was selected and I had very high hopes for him. The way this guy explained his reasoning was also in a much more cohesive and well thought out way than I ever could have ever explained it as well. I'm gonna have to look this guy up on YouTube. Thanks for posting this.
T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
This is my take as well. Who cares if it's "more than he's worth" As you said, is paying Allen a little more than he's worth better or worse than saving that money and having no replacement? I'd rather overpay. Also, it's not my money, if overpaying him doesn't hinder us from re-signing other guys and getting better, than who cares? As I mentioned earlier, I'd rather prematurely pay/overpay and be able to maneuver the cap to our advantage than have a single year cap hit cripple us. (Though it was pointed out I may be wrong on the ability to change next year's cap hit either way)
We have a ton of money in a couple years, extend these guys we need (even if it means overpaying a bit), push the cap hits out to those years and add some out clauses. Done. Just make sure you reserve enough to sign Trevor
I would have liked to hear what kind of money he thinks Allen is worth. Saying he is not a $100 mill. gut is one thing, but does that mean he would not bring Allen back under any circumstances?
(02-20-2023, 10:26 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (02-20-2023, 07:52 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Can't double down on a take I never made. But to answer your question, no I don't think half a season of good football and less than 2 tds a game average qualifies as an elite QB.. basically what i'm saying is, he made huge strides going from 12-17 to 25-8 absolutely but if he were to be in the 25 td 8 int range for the remainder of his career, he'd be more in the class of an Alex Smith in my eyes.
Josh Allen is has had plenty of time to show what he is and has been a very meh player, not worthy of his draft selection at all thusfar no.
Just an FYI, but it took Smith 8 seasons before he had a single season with as many as 20 TDs, and only three such seasons in his sixteen season career. Furthermore, it took him seven seasons to get to the playoffs.
Did you ever see Alex Smith lead a 27 point comeback?
That you'd have such a laughable lack of perspective isn't surprising.
maybe you can sell the rights to your username!
(02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 03:35 AM)IKhan't Wrote: [ -> ]Wow! I've never seen this guy before, but I really enjoy his takes. I agree with almost everything he had to say, except for when he stated Jawaan Taylor is a better RT than Josh Allen is an edge rusher. I don't agree with that at all. I'm not a fan of Taylor. Everything else he says about Allen though, I agree 100%. It pains me to say that though, because I was a fan of Allen when he was selected and I had very high hopes for him. The way this guy explained his reasoning was also in a much more cohesive and well thought out way than I ever could have ever explained it as well. I'm gonna have to look this guy up on YouTube. Thanks for posting this.
T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
The fact of the matter is that you either pay Allen more than he's worth, or you pay a different guy more than he's worth to replace Allen.
Welcome to the business of football
If you get 18 for him. Would you take his cap savings to go get Daron Payne and draft Ojulari as his edge replacement?
(02-21-2023, 01:14 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-20-2023, 10:26 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Just an FYI, but it took Smith 8 seasons before he had a single season with as many as 20 TDs, and only three such seasons in his sixteen season career. Furthermore, it took him seven seasons to get to the playoffs.
Did you ever see Alex Smith lead a 27 point comeback?
That you'd have such a laughable lack of perspective isn't surprising.
maybe you can sell the rights to your username!
(02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
The fact of the matter is that you either pay Allen more than he's worth, or you pay a different guy more than he's worth to replace Allen.
Welcome to the business of football
Maybe Allen and his replacement are both worth more than you think.
(02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 03:35 AM)IKhan't Wrote: [ -> ]Wow! I've never seen this guy before, but I really enjoy his takes. I agree with almost everything he had to say, except for when he stated Jawaan Taylor is a better RT than Josh Allen is an edge rusher. I don't agree with that at all. I'm not a fan of Taylor. Everything else he says about Allen though, I agree 100%. It pains me to say that though, because I was a fan of Allen when he was selected and I had very high hopes for him. The way this guy explained his reasoning was also in a much more cohesive and well thought out way than I ever could have ever explained it as well. I'm gonna have to look this guy up on YouTube. Thanks for posting this.
T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
Why would Allen sign such a contract if some other team will offer him the same amount of money without a built in "out clause?"
This is a theme I see with a lot of people on this board and it's sad. Some of you are so used to being let down by this team that you are willing to settle for players that are not what we need. I don't blame you, I really don't. We've whiffed on so many players in drafts and free agency over the years that it does feel like we are cursed sometimes, but we have to get out of this loser's mentality. Just because we haven't drafted great players at key positions in the past, doesn't mean that it will never happen. We need to look at what we do have (a franchise QB and a shutdown CB,) and realize brighter days are coming and if we wanna take that next step, we can't be afraid to take some risks. Great teams have pass rushers who are able to consistently get to the opposing QB. The Eagles had 4 guys who racked up double digit sacks and the Chiefs have one of the most feared interior pass rushers in the NFL in Chris Jones. We currently have no one even close to any of the pass rushers who reached the Superbowl. We desperately need this type of player and it's time to stop settling and actively try to find a player like this.
Personally, I am more than ready to take some risks and see what we can get on the open market for Allen in a trade. I'm tired of settling. It pains me, because I say this as someone who had very high hopes for Josh Allen when we drafted him. I was wrong about him though. Sometimes players don't pan out like you expect them to. It's now time to move on and try something different. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't, but we can't be afraid to try. We finally have a franchise QB, so our window for success is limited to as long as Trevor is with us. We cannot waste any time at all.
So you think it'll be easier to find an interior pass rushing threat than it would to find a good edge rusher who can get double digit sacks? I gotta disagree. It's much easier to find a great edge rusher than an interior pass rusher, (not that either is particularly easy though.) Guys like Chris Jones, Quinnen Williams, Daron Payne and Javon Hargrave don't come along every day. Those guys are unicorns. There were 19 guys in the NFL who reached double digit sacks in the NFL last season and only 4 were interior pass rushers. I'm not super optimistic about finding a great 3 technique in this draft, that would be any better than what we have in Travon Walker, if we would just move him back to his natural 3 technique/5 technique position. We're really wasting time trying to turn him into something he isn't (3-4 OLB/4-3 DE), when we could really benefit from playing him where he belonged from the beginning (3 technique/5 technique.)
(02-21-2023, 01:42 PM)NoShoes Wrote: [ -> ]If you get 18 for him. Would you take his cap savings to go get Daron Payne and draft Ojulari as his edge replacement?
I would do this in a nano second.
I definitely wouldn't draft Ojulari as Allen's replacement. I have other edge rushers I like much better. If Isaiah Foskey would be on the board at #18, I'd be on him like a fly on crap.
(02-21-2023, 03:21 PM)IKhan't Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
Why would Allen sign such a contract if some other team will offer him the same amount of money without a built in "out clause?"
This is a theme I see with a lot of people on this board and it's sad. Some of you are so used to being let down by this team that you are willing to settle for players that are not what we need. I don't blame you, I really don't. We've whiffed on so many players in drafts and free agency over the years that it does feel like we are cursed sometimes, but we have to get out of this loser's mentality. Just because we haven't drafted great players at key positions in the past, doesn't mean that it will never happen. We need to look at what we do have (a franchise QB and a shutdown CB,) and realize brighter days are coming and if we wanna take that next step, we can't be afraid to take some risks. Great teams have pass rushers who are able to consistently get to the opposing QB. The Eagles had 4 guys who racked up double digit sacks and the Chiefs have one of the most feared interior pass rushers in the NFL in Chris Jones. We currently have no one even close to any of the pass rushers who reached the Superbowl. We desperately need this type of player and it's time to stop settling and actively try to find a player like this.
Personally, I am more than ready to take some risks and see what we can get on the open market for Allen in a trade. I'm tired of settling. It pains me, because I say this as someone who had very high hopes for Josh Allen when we drafted him. I was wrong about him though. Sometimes players don't pan out like you expect them to. It's now time to move on and try something different. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't, but we can't be afraid to try. We finally have a franchise QB, so our window for success is limited to as long as Trevor is with us. We cannot waste any time at all.
So you think it'll be easier to find an interior pass rushing threat than it would to find a good edge rusher who can get double digit sacks? I gotta disagree. It's much easier to find a great edge rusher than an interior pass rusher, (not that either is particularly easy though.) Guys like Chris Jones, Quinnen Williams, Daron Payne and Javon Hargrave don't come along every day. Those guys are unicorns. There were 19 guys in the NFL who reached double digit sacks in the NFL last season and only 4 were interior pass rushers. I'm not super optimistic about finding a great 3 technique in this draft, that would be any better than what we have in Travon Walker, if we would just move him back to his natural 3 technique/5 technique position. We're really wasting time trying to turn him into something he isn't (3-4 OLB/4-3 DE), when we could really benefit from playing him where he belonged from the beginning (3 technique/5 technique.)
(02-21-2023, 01:42 PM)NoShoes Wrote: [ -> ]If you get 18 for him. Would you take his cap savings to go get Daron Payne and draft Ojulari as his edge replacement?
I would do this in a nano second.
I definitely wouldn't draft Ojulari as Allen's replacement. I have other edge rushers I like much better. If Isaiah Foskey would be on the board at #18, I'd be on him like a fly on crap.
Every single contract has an "out" in it. Be it the structure of cap vs dead cap, performance based, etc. You can simply load the cap hit of a deal to a year you have space and then be able to cut them another year with not much on the dead cap. The player gets the same amount of guarantees regardless of that structure so for them it doesn't matter.
Even Mahomes' contract has an "out" in it after 2024. They can cut him anytime in 2025 and beyond (well kind of, his guarantees kick in the year prior each year) and instantly save $40-50 million in cap space. Obviously they won't, but it's a good example that even the best of the best have outs for the club.
(02-21-2023, 01:14 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-20-2023, 10:26 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Just an FYI, but it took Smith 8 seasons before he had a single season with as many as 20 TDs, and only three such seasons in his sixteen season career. Furthermore, it took him seven seasons to get to the playoffs.
Did you ever see Alex Smith lead a 27 point comeback?
That you'd have such a laughable lack of perspective isn't surprising.
maybe you can sell the rights to your username!
(02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
The fact of the matter is that you either pay Allen more than he's worth, or you pay a different guy more than he's worth to replace Allen.
Welcome to the business of football
That's what free agency is about.
All the more important to hit on our draft picks unlike several of our earlier picks for the last 10 years or so.
Allen is a target for Seattle. Not sure what they have that we'd want.
(02-21-2023, 03:21 PM)IKhan't Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
Why would Allen sign such a contract if some other team will offer him the same amount of money without a built in "out clause?"
This is a theme I see with a lot of people on this board and it's sad. Some of you are so used to being let down by this team that you are willing to settle for players that are not what we need. I don't blame you, I really don't. We've whiffed on so many players in drafts and free agency over the years that it does feel like we are cursed sometimes, but we have to get out of this loser's mentality. Just because we haven't drafted great players at key positions in the past, doesn't mean that it will never happen. We need to look at what we do have (a franchise QB and a shutdown CB,) and realize brighter days are coming and if we wanna take that next step, we can't be afraid to take some risks. Great teams have pass rushers who are able to consistently get to the opposing QB. The Eagles had 4 guys who racked up double digit sacks and the Chiefs have one of the most feared interior pass rushers in the NFL in Chris Jones. We currently have no one even close to any of the pass rushers who reached the Superbowl. We desperately need this type of player and it's time to stop settling and actively try to find a player like this.
Personally, I am more than ready to take some risks and see what we can get on the open market for Allen in a trade. I'm tired of settling. It pains me, because I say this as someone who had very high hopes for Josh Allen when we drafted him. I was wrong about him though. Sometimes players don't pan out like you expect them to. It's now time to move on and try something different. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't, but we can't be afraid to try. We finally have a franchise QB, so our window for success is limited to as long as Trevor is with us. We cannot waste any time at all.
So you think it'll be easier to find an interior pass rushing threat than it would to find a good edge rusher who can get double digit sacks? I gotta disagree. It's much easier to find a great edge rusher than an interior pass rusher, (not that either is particularly easy though.) Guys like Chris Jones, Quinnen Williams, Daron Payne and Javon Hargrave don't come along every day. Those guys are unicorns. There were 19 guys in the NFL who reached double digit sacks in the NFL last season and only 4 were interior pass rushers. I'm not super optimistic about finding a great 3 technique in this draft, that would be any better than what we have in Travon Walker, if we would just move him back to his natural 3 technique/5 technique position. We're really wasting time trying to turn him into something he isn't (3-4 OLB/4-3 DE), when we could really benefit from playing him where he belonged from the beginning (3 technique/5 technique.)
The bolded is rich coming from the dude who "quit" on this team after they drafted Walker. We all know it's you The O-LineMatters. You type exactly like he does and sound just like him. Maybe myself, and multiple other users are wrong and you're his long lost twin or something, but I doubt it.
(02-21-2023, 03:21 PM)IKhan't Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 09:10 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]T-Wigg is cool. His podcast is usually good. He's worth following for sure.
He's missing two things badly in this episode. He's stuck on paying a guy "more than he's worth" as if it is some important validation of his Josh Allen take.
It's not.
NFL rosters are probably anywhere from 20-40% made up of guys being paid more than they are worth.
Overpaying Allen could indeed be a problem, I'm not going to deny that. But he's too hung up on that notion.
Just bake in a team friendly out clause in the contract. Get out in 2 years if he doesn't produce. It's common language in many deals these days.
Secondly - he doesn't really address the fact that there is no actual plan to replace Allen's productivity and the Jaguars very recently endured an 8 year drought of not being able to find a pass rusher at either edge or DE position.
After a brief showing of decent pass rush from Paul Spicer and Bobby McCray - they waited EIGHT YEARS to find Yannick Ngakoue.
Are we ready to kick Allen to the curb and risk that kind of ineptitude for years on end again?
I also noticed at one point he seemed to assert that pressures/hurries from Allen didn't end up in incompletions when I can remember two such plays just from the week 18 and the LAC game. Both quite meaningful.
Anyway - Gonna be interesting to see if Allen gets a deal and if he steps up - deal or no deal.
Personally - I still 100% feel that with Williams and Campbell outside, you add a quality nickel and find some push up the middle front a 3 tech and Walker+Allen will have a jump in sacks numbers. The coverage buys them half of a tick longer to get home, and some push in the middle feeds them flushed quarterbacks a bit more often.
That plan ^ feels like it will be easier than landing a double digit sack guy in the draft.
Why would Allen sign such a contract if some other team will offer him the same amount of money without a built in "out clause?"
This is a theme I see with a lot of people on this board and it's sad. Some of you are so used to being let down by this team that you are willing to settle for players that are not what we need. I don't blame you, I really don't. We've whiffed on so many players in drafts and free agency over the years that it does feel like we are cursed sometimes, but we have to get out of this loser's mentality. Just because we haven't drafted great players at key positions in the past, doesn't mean that it will never happen. We need to look at what we do have (a franchise QB and a shutdown CB,) and realize brighter days are coming and if we wanna take that next step, we can't be afraid to take some risks. Great teams have pass rushers who are able to consistently get to the opposing QB. The Eagles had 4 guys who racked up double digit sacks and the Chiefs have one of the most feared interior pass rushers in the NFL in Chris Jones. We currently have no one even close to any of the pass rushers who reached the Superbowl. We desperately need this type of player and it's time to stop settling and actively try to find a player like this.
Personally, I am more than ready to take some risks and see what we can get on the open market for Allen in a trade. I'm tired of settling. It pains me, because I say this as someone who had very high hopes for Josh Allen when we drafted him. I was wrong about him though. Sometimes players don't pan out like you expect them to. It's now time to move on and try something different. Maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't, but we can't be afraid to try. We finally have a franchise QB, so our window for success is limited to as long as Trevor is with us. We cannot waste any time at all.
So you think it'll be easier to find an interior pass rushing threat than it would to find a good edge rusher who can get double digit sacks? I gotta disagree. It's much easier to find a great edge rusher than an interior pass rusher, (not that either is particularly easy though.) Guys like Chris Jones, Quinnen Williams, Daron Payne and Javon Hargrave don't come along every day. Those guys are unicorns. There were 19 guys in the NFL who reached double digit sacks in the NFL last season and only 4 were interior pass rushers. I'm not super optimistic about finding a great 3 technique in this draft, that would be any better than what we have in Travon Walker, if we would just move him back to his natural 3 technique/5 technique position. We're really wasting time trying to turn him into something he isn't (3-4 OLB/4-3 DE), when we could really benefit from playing him where he belonged from the beginning (3 technique/5 technique.)
The exact same reason Christian Kirk did. Big money. If he believes he'll earn it - he'll take the deal
It happens quite frequently these days. Kirk can be released after 2023 and he'll only walk with half of his $72 mil. and the Jags would have only 10 mil in dead money to deal with instead of paying another 37 mil.
Do your next point - I didn't say we needed a top 5 pass rushing DT. I said we need somebody that gets more push in the middle than what we are getting. Big difference. And yes, they are easier to find than double digit sack producers from the edge.
I'm not going to get into any declarations of exactly what Travon Walker is or isn't after one season.
Way too early to presume to know what the 22 year old is capable of just yet - and how they plan to use him in 2023 is also a mystery as of now.
I'm not saying "don't draft an edge rusher."
I'm saying "don't piss away 8 sacks and 40 pressures a year until you have someone that can replace that."
Adding a rookie edge is fine. And if they do that - they can just let Allen play out his fifth year option without a new deal.
I just don't know that trading Allen is the kind of gamble I want to risk right now.
Seems wholly unnecessary. Plenty of other avenues to improving the pass rush IMO.
(02-21-2023, 09:24 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (02-21-2023, 09:14 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]The bolded is rich coming from the dude who "quit" on this team after they drafted Walker. We all know it's you The O-LineMatters. You type exactly like he does and sound just like him. Maybe myself, and multiple other users are wrong and you're his long lost twin or something, but I doubt it.
Someone check the IP!
Could be wrong, but I'd bet if you took a couple posts from O-Line's account in the past and some recent posts from that Khan't account and hid the names, you'd have a hard time guessing which account the posts came from.
The format and wording of his/those posts are wayyyy too similar imo. As well as the opinions they seem to share.
Josh Allen is a LDE now right ?