Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Bring harm to Mr. Kinsey with a toy truck?  And they figured using deadly force while the 2 were so close to eachother was a good idea?

 

This is indeed a systemic problem then.  

 

Also, this means, if the story is true, that the pig didn't have an automatic weapon but squeezed off 3 rounds...  If this story is true, there's no way you use a 3 round burst to take out the perp in a hostage situation.  Which is the story that you are telling me.
 

 

This terrible joke of a cop thought he was in the middle of a hostage situation, and decided that reeling off a 3 round burst was the best way to save the hostage???  Really?  

 

Not to mention that the mentally ill person had a toy, not a gun.  I mean, jeez.  Is this not what the protesters are freaking out about?  This idea that cops shoot first and ask quesitons later and are never held accountable?

 

This is the prime example.  Thank god nobody died, this time.

That entire post was quotes besides the words 'also' and 'for all who care.' I told you nothing, to be clear.   Stop calling the cop a pig, that's inflammatory, and not accurate here. The guy isn't a racist, hes an idiot, but intent was not the issue. Poor judgement and bad training almost certainly were.

Quote:That entire post was quotes besides the words 'also' and 'for all who care.' I told you nothing, to be clear.   Stop calling the cop a pig, that's inflammatory, and not accurate here. The guy isn't a racist, hes an idiot, but intent was not the issue. Poor judgement and bad training almost certainly were.

 

The term pig, has nothing to do with racism.  It has to do with the idea that the agency of power, namely the police officer or department, is corrupted and not working in the best interest of the community.  The cop could be black and the victim of the corruption or brutality could be white, and the term would still fit.

 

I just read in the Miami Herald that the police chief came out and said that the bullets were intended for the autistic person that was holding a toy truck.  He thought that this reasoning will calm the outrage.  In fact, it's the absolute sign that these people are completely out of touch with reality.

This is the craziest thing.   The police officer is a member of the Swat team.   So he tries to shoot the guy with the toy truck, THREE SHOTS, misses him, and hits the guy lying on the ground with his hands up!   Talk about gross incompetence!   This is insane!  Are these guys trained at all?  

Quote:But doesn't this just perpetuate the broken system that creates pigs? In order to destroy pigs, you must destroy the system that creates them.


To let terrible cops get away, you're just saying that you get a free pass to hunt humans and the state will pay for your brutality.


I'm not cool with that.

But at the same time, you can't make an example of everyone. This cop will pay for his poor judgment, but come on. The statement on what happened is humiliating enough by itself. He tried to protect someone he thought was in mortal danger, shot three times, missed his target twice and then hit the guy he was trying to protect in the leg. It's almost hard not to laugh, tbqh. It could have been far, far worse, and we may eventually see charges pressed, but you can't drag out the pitchforks and torches for everything. There's no effort on the part of the police force to hide behind bullsnot, justify the shooting or cover it up. It was a mind-boggling action on the part of someone who lacks the judgment to be a cop and the skills to hit the broad side of a barn from ten paces. His career is over, there were thankfully only minor injuries, so let's save the outrage for the next time a man is shot repeatedly from a foot away while pinned or complying.

I'm sure he was highly trained if he was SWAT. Unfortunately, training doesn't stick in a lot of people as you all have probably seen in your own professions.


It seems some are so interested in a narrative here that they are inserting nefarious motives into the officer and the department. It really can't be something as simple as an officer who was given bad information and wasn't properly able to piece together a scene for himself? It happens all of the time in use of force training scenarios.


Have you guys ever seen the video of the anti police brutality activist minister who agreed to go through very basic use of force scenarios with a police department near Phoenix? Both he and a reporter went through 3 scenarios each and both were either killed or shot an unarmed person in 2 out of the 3 scenarios. The very same people who decried the the unarmed public being shot by police did the exact same thing they railed against. It should be eye opening and I encourage any who don't sympathize with the decisions police have to make to consider doing some of this training themselves.

Quote:I'm sure he was highly trained if he was SWAT. Unfortunately, training doesn't stick in a lot of people as you all have probably seen in your own professions.


It seems some are so interested in a narrative here that they are inserting nefarious motives into the officer and the department. It really can't be something as simple as an officer who was given bad information and wasn't properly able to piece together a scene for himself? It happens all of the time in use of force training scenarios.


Have you guys ever seen the video of the anti police brutality activist minister who agreed to go through very basic use of force scenarios with a police department near Phoenix? Both he and a reporter went through 3 scenarios each and both were either killed or shot an unarmed person in 2 out of the 3 scenarios. The very same people who decried the the unarmed public being shot by police did the exact same thing they railed against. It should be eye opening and I encourage any who don't sympathize with the decisions police have to make to consider doing some of this training themselves.

All this tells me is that the training methods and training itself are inadequate. We already knew that, though. You can't have a mini army of police trained and equipped to go to war, then at surprised when civilians are treated like armed, hostile enemy combatants. Paramilitary policing focused on the interests of the state is the overarching problem here, not racial biases.

Quote:But at the same time, you can't make an example of everyone. This cop will pay for his poor judgment, but come on. The statement on what happened is humiliating enough by itself. He tried to protect someone he thought was in mortal danger, shot three times, missed his target twice and then hit the guy he was trying to protect in the leg. It's almost hard not to laugh, tbqh. It could have been far, far worse, and we may eventually see charges pressed, but you can't drag out the pitchforks and torches for everything. There's no effort on the part of the police force to hide behind bullsnot, justify the shooting or cover it up. It was a mind-boggling action on the part of someone who lacks the judgment to be a cop and the skills to hit the broad side of a barn from ten paces. His career is over, there were thankfully only minor injuries, so let's save the outrage for the next time a man is shot repeatedly from a foot away while pinned or complying.

 

It's beyond that, though.  How did he make the SWAT team, and who put him on the SWAT team?   It seems like a much deeper problem than just that one incompetent police officer. 

 

Also, from what I read, it wasn't "from ten paces."   It was from behind a patrol car 50 yards away.   Why is he shooting from 50 yards away?  Who was in command?   Who (if anyone) gave the order to fire?   Did no one have any binoculars where they could see it was a toy truck and not a pistol?  

Quote:All this tells me is that the training methods and training itself are inadequate. We already knew that, though. You can't have a mini army of police trained and equipped to go to war, then at surprised when civilians are treated like armed, hostile enemy combatants. Paramilitary policing focused on the interests of the state is the overarching problem here, not racial biases.

Its hard to say if training methods are inadequate or not. Every agency and department has their own standards. I think we can all agree that additional training would be nice, but unforttunately budget and manpower restraints prevent that in most cases.


Many situations a cop encounters can't just simply nullified by training though. Non compliant people make an officers job nearly impossible.


A ticked off man won't listen to a cop, walks away to behind his truck and a cop has a split second to make a life changing decision. Does he let the guy do it? The man pops out throwing 3 or 4 shots down range at the officer before the officer can even draw from holster. Does he tackle or taze the guy? The poor man was just going to get his ID from his wallet. Sometimes in life, there are no right answers.

My guess it was accidental discharge during a lapse in concentration. That would explain the total lack of accuracy as well. Guys have squeezed off rounds wiping sweat from their brows before. One pull of the trigger sent three rounds downrange. He was lucky as hell both of them were not hit.

Quote:My guess it was accidental discharge during a lapse in concentration. That would explain the total lack of accuracy as well. Guys have squeezed off rounds wiping sweat from their brows before. One pull of the trigger sent three rounds downrange. He was lucky as hell both of them were not hit.

The officer already said it was an intentional discharge. I doubt an officer would intentionally use full auto or burst at that distance and in that setting either. I guess its possible he had intended semi auto and didnt realize it was set to full auto, which caused the 2nd and 3rd rounds to spray and hit the victim.

Can you imagine if somebody accidently shot Hillary Clinton or somebody similar?  There would be no "oops my bad".  That person would be dropped on the spot.

Quote:Perhaps because the vantage point of the police officers is different than that of the idiot filming it on his cell phone?

Are they unable to change their vantage point? Why wouldn't they position themselves at a better angle? These officers are so afraid, yet a civilian with a camera has no fear? And why is he an idiot? Maybe you read something I didn't so I'm not trying to be snyde.

Quote:That entire post was quotes besides the words 'also' and 'for all who care.' I told you nothing, to be clear.   Stop calling the cop a pig, that's inflammatory, and not accurate here. The guy isn't a racist, hes an idiot, but intent was not the issue. Poor judgement and bad training almost certainly were.

 

He's not a racist, he's an idiot!   I feel sooo much better now.   Hahaha. 

 

Sorry, I just had to laugh at that. 

Quote:All this tells me is that the training methods and training itself are inadequate. We already knew that, though. You can't have a mini army of police trained and equipped to go to war, then at surprised when civilians are treated like armed, hostile enemy combatants. Paramilitary policing focused on the interests of the state is the overarching problem here, not racial biases.

 

Quote:

 

Besides the Battlestar Galactica quote, how exactly are our police militarized?  Hyperbole and Hollywood fantasies have eroded people's minds into thinking that criminals will listen to the calm reasoning of a police officer and that when the time comes, any officer should be able to disarm criminals with their hand to hand ninja skills learned through a few months of "more training."

 

Your location may be someplace warm and fuzzy, but reality is that the streets aren't a gentle place.  Police need guns and bullet proof vests.

Quote:Besides the Battlestar Galactica quote, how exactly are our police militarized?  Hyperbole and Hollywood fantasies have eroded people's minds into thinking that criminals will listen to the calm reasoning of a police officer and that when the time comes, any officer should be able to disarm criminals with their hand to hand ninja skills learned through a few months of "more training."

 

Your location may be someplace warm and fuzzy, but reality is that the streets aren't a gentle place.  Police need guns and bullet proof vests.

 

If you can't tell the difference between a SWAT team and a Mechanized Infantry detachment upon visual inspection then we have a problem. Police do need guns and vests, however, this poor sap was shot with a military grade assault rifle that you and I cannot legally purchase (in 99% of cases). Not by SWAT, just by Joe Patrolman; we need more Officer Friendly and less Judge Dredd on our streets.

Quote:If you can't tell the difference between a SWAT team and a Mechanized Infantry detachment upon visual inspection then we have a problem. Police do need guns and vests, however, this poor sap was shot with a military grade assault rifle that you and I cannot legally purchase (in 99% of cases). Not by SWAT, just by Joe Patrolman; we need more Officer Friendly and less Judge Dredd on our streets.

 

So, if SWAT teams shouldn't be using ballistic plating and helmets, flashbangs, and other gear to make entry to extract dangerous and violent individuals, how should it be done then as an alternative?  Do we just negotiate with barricaded, dangerous individuals until they see the light?  SWAT teams aren't patrolling your neighborhoods man.  They are only called when the stuff hits the fan.

 

Officer Friendly and Judge Dredd are cute hyperbole and fantasies and all, but there aren't any vigilante cops out there.  Its just not the case.  Police aren't out there saying to themselves, "I'm going to kill this guy because he's a career criminal and our streets would be better off." and then pulling triggers.  There are real reasons why cops decide to pull the trigger and it usually relates to the danger they believe they or others are in, real or wrongly perceived.

Quote:So, if SWAT teams shouldn't be using ballistic plating and helmets, flashbangs, and other gear to make entry to extract dangerous and violent individuals, how should it be done then as an alternative?  Do we just negotiate with barricaded, dangerous individuals until they see the light?  SWAT teams aren't patrolling your neighborhoods man.  They are only called when the stuff hits the fan.

 

Officer Friendly and Judge Dredd are cute hyperbole and fantasies and all, but there aren't any vigilante cops out there.  Its just not the case.  Police aren't out there saying to themselves, "I'm going to kill this guy because he's a career criminal and our streets would be better off." and then pulling triggers.  There are real reasons why cops decide to pull the trigger and it usually relates to the danger they believe they or others are in, real or wrongly perceived.

 

No, they're out there pulling triggers because they've been given free reign to do so for far too long. It's past time the people reign them in.

 

Again, www.policemisconduct.net keeps a daily tally of the offenses. There's plenty there for you to defend.

Quote:No, they're out there pulling triggers because they've been given free reign to do so for far too long. It's past time the people reign them in.

 

Again, www.policemisconduct.net keeps a daily tally of the offenses. There's plenty there for you to defend.

 

I can't argue with you if you honestly believe, for one, that police are just allowed to shoot people.  And two, that police are maliciously gunning down innocent people just because they've been given "free reign" like its a hunting tag or something.

I feel like some are being willfully obtuse.


A SWAT team, while necessary for unique situations should not make up the entire police force. You have basically militarized the entire PD if you're equipping every officer with the weaponry of a soldier.


A black and white patrol-man should have a side arm and his vest. He should be community policing his fellow citizens, not occupying and engaging enemies.


It's a change in equipment and a change in the mind frame of the PD that must occur.