Quote:Go look at pro football focus. Sounds like those are the metrics you'd be interested in.
They rated a couple guys high in pass protection, lewan and warmac were positives. So your intuition coincidences there for sure. And I agree they were good at times and mariota lost awareness.
But they were also absolutely miserable in the rest of the line. Especially the interior. Did you watch that two minute drill at the end of the game? Guys were literally walking back to get set, they had no urgency or desire at all. No offense but the jags pass rush is pretty poor and they gave up 4 sacks. On the last play they rushed 4 and 2 broke through nearly instantly.
Consider too his receivers for the game. Outside of walker, no one has been productive or able to get any separation. Give him some real weapons who can get open and I think he is more productive down the field. I think that has been one of the biggest differences for bortles this year. Look at the way Robinson made this incredible catches in traffic. Hopefully it gets better when Wright is back.
Bortles big receivers are a second year 22 year old second rounder and a second year undrafted player. It's quite possible that they'd be as good with a guy like Mariota who seems to have a really conservative bent to his style, but I don't think it's something that can be assumed.
Part of what makes the WRs good is that Bortles is legitimately good. He keeps his eyes down field, and he's always focused on pushing the ball down the field, sometimes to his own detriment. I think It's a better sign that Bortles problem is he needs to learn more when to give up on the big play rather than be convinced that big plays are even possible.
Sure you can wait for Mariota to have a lineup of all pros at OL and WR, but it's much more likely that he's going to face deficits at those positions for at least a part of his career, and he'll have to make up for that, like the true elite QBs do, if he'll ever be an elite.
Well, said, Seldomrite.
It's totally true. Anyone that says, "well BB5 is being bailed out by his WRs" is being dishonest. These WRs are 2nd year players that were not very good thier rookie years--- Yes, they flashed. But so did BB5. The fact of the matter is that without the deep ball accuracy of BB5,
The Allen Brothers would not have the opportunity to look so great as they do now.
These players are developing at the same time. BB5 is giving them chances to make big plays. The throws he makes, if they are off a foot here or a foot there would not give the WRs any chance to be successful.
For the troll to say that 2nd year WRs that were invisible last year are making BB5 look good is proving that the troll has no concept of football or is just being intellectually dishonest. The more I read his words, the more I think he just has no football intelligence.
Quote:Bortles big receivers are a second year 22 year old second rounder and a second year undrafted player. It's quite possible that they'd be as good with a guy like Mariota who seems to have a really conservative bent to his style, but I don't think it's something that can be assumed.
Part of what makes the WRs good is that Bortles is legitimately good. He keeps his eyes down field, and he's always focused on pushing the ball down the field, sometimes to his own detriment. I think It's a better sign that Bortles problem is he needs to learn more when to give up on the big play rather than be convinced that big plays are even possible.
Sure you can wait for Mariota to have a lineup of all pros at OL and WR, but it's much more likely that he's going to face deficits at those positions for at least a part of his career, and he'll have to make up for that, like the true elite QBs do, if he'll ever be an elite.
Ok, but he needs at least better than practice squad players around him. I think when you understand the context of his situation, the stats become all the more impressive. Despite all that he ranks higher in mostly all standards of measurement for a qb and he has only played in 8 games. I see no reason to think he won't keep improving based on the production he has and the ability he's shown on the field and as a leader.
Quote:Ok, but he needs at least better than practice squad players around him. I think when you understand the context of his situation, the stats become all the more impressive. Despite all that he ranks higher in mostly all standards of measurement for a qb and he has only played in 8 games. I see no reason to think he won't keep improving based on the production he has and the ability he's shown on the field and as a leader.
The context of his situation? Oh please.
The context of the situation is that MM is a check down QB. You have a spread option QB that has a very predictable ceiling. When all you do is check down and throw first read targets you're gonna look good to the Marshall Fault type analysists.
Let's face facts here, besides 2 lucky games, MM looks like a top 25 QB. He's not a back-up caliber QB. But he ain't gonna get you to the playoffs without a really great team around him.
Sorry to tell you, but the level of innacuracy and timidity of MM would make Burns and AR15 look like practice squad WRs. Maybe MM would make Julius Thomas look good, but I'm sorry to inform you that MM is not accurate enough to allow AR15 or Burns to even flash the brilliance that BB5 gives them the opportunity to show.
Quote:Ok, but he needs at least better than practice squad players around him. I think when you understand the context of his situation, the stats become all the more impressive. Despite all that he ranks higher in mostly all standards of measurement for a qb and he has only played in 8 games. I see no reason to think he won't keep improving based on the production he has and the ability he's shown on the field and as a leader.
Sure every QB needs something to work with, or Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers wouldn't be having down years. That being said I think that you, like most titans fans would, underestimate just how much Bortles has raised the play of everyone around him. I believe the Jaguars have the better team than the titans, but mostly because of youth and our QB. I think Robinson is the best WR in the AFCS, but I think Delanie Walker is a pretty damned good TE, and the titans defense is better overall as a pass rushing group than what the Jaguars have right now.
Hey Bacon, what message board to you visit to talk about the tacks? I'd love to go visit you over there... :thanks:
All in good fun, my friend. No reason to be scared...
Quote:Sure every QB needs something to work with, or Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers wouldn't be having down years. That being said I think that you, like most titans fans would, underestimate just how much Bortles has raised the play of everyone around him. I believe the Jaguars have the better team than the titans, but mostly because of youth and our QB. I think Robinson is the best WR in the AFCS, but I think Delanie Walker is a pretty damned good TE, and the titans defense is better overall as a pass rushing group than what the Jaguars have right now.
Not to mention that before the Jaguars kicked the tacks in the teeth, the tacks had a huge advantage in terms of overall defense and running game in terms of statistics. Metrics, you know, the thing that baconator relies upon. The tack running game was drastically better than our running game, statistically. Thier defense was also ranked much higher than ours, statistically.
But you know, stats and metrics only matter to the pig when it serves his sloppy purpose.
Quote:Not to mention that before the Jaguars kicked the tacks in the teeth, the tacks had a huge advantage in terms of overall defense and running game in terms of statistics. Metrics, you know, the thing that baconator relies upon. The tack running game was drastically better than our running game, statistically. Thier defense was also ranked much higher than ours, statistically.
But you know, stats and metrics only matter to the pig when it serves his sloppy purpose.
Yes, and some stats have more meaning than others. That Bortles leads the league in deep passing is a telling stat, it's not misleading at all, it captures what he is and what he's all about. Same for Robinson, the WR, he excels at catching passes over DBs, and I don't think he'd be nearly as noteworthy if he were playing for an offense that focuses on a short passing attack.
Saying that Mariota has good stats is meaningful in that he's not making big mistakes, but you have to dig deeper than just averages to understand what's going on with Mariota and the titans, and it's more a case of either being afraid to play aggressively, or a personality trait that makes it his style to do so. Either way I don't think he'll be better than Bortles, but we'll probably have the chance to see if he can be.
Quote:Yes, and some stats have more meaning than others. That Bortles leads the league in deep passing is a telling stat, it's not misleading at all, it captures what he is and what he's all about. Same for Robinson, the WR, he excels at catching passes over DBs, and I don't think he'd be nearly as noteworthy if he were playing for an offense that focuses on a short passing attack.
Saying that Mariota has good stats is meaningful in that he's not making big mistakes, but you have to dig deeper than just averages to understand what's going on with Mariota and the titans, and it's more a case of either being afraid to play aggressively, or a personality trait that makes it his style to do so. Either way I don't think he'll be better than Bortles, but we'll probably have the chance to see if he can be.
I think due to Bortles style of play he will end up being better than Mariota however I must say I was impressed with Mairota and that 11-0 TD-INT ratio (correct me if I'm wrong) on the road is insane.
Quote:I think due to Bortles style of play he will end up being better than Mariota however I must say I was impressed with Mairota and that 11-0 TD-INT ratio (correct me if I'm wrong) on the road is insane.
It's a nice stat-line.
But when you throw the 3-5 yard slant and check downs to TEs and RBs, you don't get a lot of INTs.
tacks are very careful with their young QB.
Meanwhile Jameis Winston be all
"Ballin!"
Cuz they let him just work it all out through the season. "Throw those picks... we ain't goin no where this year anyway son."
Winston has more wins than MM, more TDs, and a shot at making the playoffs.
Coddled QBs don't win in the end, imo.
Look what happened to ol Teddy yesterday....
Quote:Why are you concerned about what other forums I post on? I'm not going to give you my info out you stalker. You're probably the most out of touch poster here, he is not a check down QB nor is he a 'system QB' as you say. Those are both so factually wrong it makes me question whether or not you actually understand football or have watched him play.
I agree that MM is not a check down QB. A check down QB like Henne can make the deep throw, but have an overwhelming tendency to check down when guys are not getting wide open deep. MM will throw into a tight window if need be and he'll occasionally throw deep if he sees a play to be made. The problem is, he just can't make those deep throws if his life depended on it. MM tends to throw mostly short-to-mid-range passes because he simply can't throw deep. That's different than a true check down CB that is basically scared to throw into coverage.
Quote:I agree that MM is not a check down QB. A check down QB like Henne can make the deep throw, but have an overwhelming tendency to check down when guys are not getting wide open deep. MM will throw into a tight window if need be and he'll occasionally throw deep if he sees a play to be made. The problem is, he just can't make those deep throws if his life depended on it. MM tends to throw mostly short-to-mid-range passes because he simply can't throw deep. That's different than a true check down CB that is basically scared to throw into coverage.
Define deep?
Because last I checked he had 0 balls fly through the air beyond 20 yards....
meanwhile, over 50% of his throws and completions come from 10 or less.....
check down much?
I agree he CAN fit the ball in tight windows, and he IS an accurate passer.
But for now, he is a game managing check down master.
Quote:Yes, and some stats have more meaning than others. That Bortles leads the league in deep passing is a telling stat, it's not misleading at all, it captures what he is and what he's all about. Same for Robinson, the WR, he excels at catching passes over DBs, and I don't think he'd be nearly as noteworthy if he were playing for an offense that focuses on a short passing attack.
Saying that Mariota has good stats is meaningful in that he's not making big mistakes, but you have to dig deeper than just averages to understand what's going on with Mariota and the titans, and it's more a case of either being afraid to play aggressively, or a personality trait that makes it his style to do so. Either way I don't think he'll be better than Bortles, but we'll probably have the chance to see if he can be.
Bortles is actually 10th in deep yard passing, completing around 45% of his deep balls. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? What stats are more meaningful than completion %, YPA, TD rate, INT rate, and QB rating (and specifically in the redzone)? Surely deep ball production can't be the most meaningful measure of a good QB?
Quote:I agree that MM is not a check down QB. A check down QB like Henne can make the deep throw, but have an overwhelming tendency to check down when guys are not getting wide open deep. MM will throw into a tight window if need be and he'll occasionally throw deep if he sees a play to be made. The problem is, he just can't make those deep throws if his life depended on it. MM tends to throw mostly short-to-mid-range passes because he simply can't throw deep. That's different than a true check down CB that is basically scared to throw into coverage.
You must have missed the information posted that Mariota is actually a more proficient deep passer than Bortles was in his rookie year. In fact, Mariota could only complete 2 passes over the next 20 attempts over 20 yards and still match Bortles' deep ball production. Give him the experience and playmakers and those numbers will improve. He is already very good attacking the short and intermediate areas of the field and there is no reason why he won't get better.
Quote:Define deep?
Because last I checked he had 0 balls fly through the air beyond 20 yards....
meanwhile, over 50% of his throws and completions come from 10 or less.....
check down much?
I agree he CAN fit the ball in tight windows, and he IS an accurate passer.
But for now, he is a game managing check down master.
More factually wrong statements. Were you aware that 70% of Bortles passes in his rookie year came under 10 yards? Even so, he couldn't even complete 60% of his passes. So if you're arguing that Mariota is a check down master, does that mean Bortles was the check down overlord? To take shots downfield consistently you need the playmakers that can get separation downfield. Furthermore, how can you have the 8th highest YPA (7.8) in the NFL and be a checkdown master? The point you're trying to make is nonsensical.
Mariota looks a lot more polished than Bortles with his mechanics coming out too.
Just watch the games, Bortles is so much more talented it is obvious.
Quote:You must have missed the information posted that Mariota is actually a more proficient deep passer than Bortles was in his rookie year. In fact, Mariota could only complete 2 passes over the next 20 attempts over 20 yards and still match Bortles' deep ball production. Give him the experience and playmakers and those numbers will improve. He is already very good attacking the short and intermediate areas of the field and there is no reason why he won't get better.
You must have missed the part where midway through his rookie season Bortle's arm practically went limp from fatigue and he couldn't throw deep at all.
Quote:You must have missed the part where midway through his rookie season Bortle's arm practically went limp from fatigue and he couldn't throw deep at all.
Being able to handle the rigors of the NFL is part of the game. Who is to say his arm isn't shot from this point in the season on out? Regardless, I don't see how it detracts from my points at all.
Quote:Mariota looks a lot more polished than Bortles with his mechanics coming out too.
Just watch the games, Bortles is so much more talented it is obvious.
He has a lot of talent sure, but what exactly do you mean? Can you be more specific? I think Mariota has proven to read defenses better, and is actually better at the touch throws and fitting the ball into tight windows. Just look at his ball location for receivers, its almost always in a place they can make the easy catch and try to make a play with the ball. Bortles has the stronger arm no doubt, but there is a lot more to being a good QB than having a strong arm. His mechanics are no where near as good as Mariota's, footwork included. Mariota has proven he has the arm to make all the NFL throws.
My QB is better than your QB.
Arguments like these are kind of dumb.
Blake Bortles has lived up to his draft expectations so far.
Marcus Mariota has lived up to his draft expectations so far.
Both young quarterbacks are showing promise. The difference is with the rest of their respective teams. The Titans, should they want to be competitive/relevant in the near future need to do almost what the Jaguars did in 2013. Tear it all down and start over. They have a good start right now with a good QB. Now it's time to get some good young WR's and a good offensive line. I'm not saying that the Jaguars are there yet, but look at the difference between last season and this season.
Mariota is a good quarterback, but he will never have the chance to really prove it without a supporting cast of players around him.
Quote:I agree. The first one I didn't see any PI at all and don't know what the refs were talking about. And on the 2nd one, Colvin has just as much right to the football and was going for it.
By the way, I've come to realize the best play in the Titans playbook as I've now seen it a couple different weeks. It's a throw about 10 yards deep in the middle of the field where the receiver tips the ball up so it flies another ten yards deeper into the waiting hands of Delanie Walker. Clealry it's all part of their called play. :teehee:<strong>
</strong>
lol that's what I said on another board. Tip passes are on purpose now.
Mariota has to get rid of the ball much faster than Bortles. This and the lack of talent is why there are not so many deep passes. I've seen him take his shots when there is time in the pocket and he has a man open. Titans' O-Line is probably the worst in the league. Two straight years having to rely on guys off the street. I'm not saying Mariota is particularly impressive just yet, but the more I see him play, the more I think he has a bright future ahead of him.
I really don't understand what the Titans are doing with DGB. The guy makes plays when he's targeted. I know him and Mariota haven't played together long enough to have the kind of rapport that Bortles has with his receivers, but he never will if you don't keep the guy on the field and give him some looks. Justin Hunter sucks. I really can't figure out why he was playing ahead of DGB to begin with.
I didn't think Bortles looked all that impressive either. His play was about as pedestrian as it gets against a defense giving up on the blitz because of injuries in the secondary. Regardless, I saw some flashes. He's definitely doing so much better with pocket presence. Throws a nice deep ball too. I think both QB's have a good future ahead of them.
Quote:More personal attacks. I'll take it as you conceding that bortles isn't in the same class as mariota.
Spoken like a compare/contrast of Twilight Sparkle and Applejack.
Cute.
Quote:Spoken like a compare/contrast of Twilight Sparkle and Applejack.
Cute.
Great, now I have that stupid theme song in my head