1.  I am only concerned about NFL accomplishments on an NFL board.  If were talking about college accomplishments, I'm sure we could bring such stalwarts like Johnny Manziel, Andre Ware, and Archie Griffin into the discussion.  But since we are talking about the NFL, and since those guys, like Tebow, accomplished jack [BLEEP] in the NFL, they aren't worth discussing, just like Tebow if you didn't insist on bringing him into a discussion that did not mention him.

2.  That is precisely my point!  Denver had just spent a 1st round pick on Tebow two years earlier.  if Tebow were performing like a competent NFL QB, they wouldn't have bothered bringing in Manning.  They would have let Tebow continue to develop.  Instead, they saw first hand what just about everyone else could see:  Tebow sucks.

3.   No...you didn't.  Not even close.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...waJo00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

4.  Failed to do the job?!?  Three points from winning a Super Bowl as opposed to never getting there?  Okay...?!?

5.  What in the world does Foles have to do with this conversation?  You have introduced two QBs completely irrelevant to the discussion.  If it will satisfy you, I will concede that Kaepernick is not as good as Foles on the basis of not being able to win a Super Bowl.  Of course, if you apply that logic to the population of QBs as a whole, you would get some questionable results, like Trent Dilfer being a better QB than Dan Marino and Brad Johnson being better than Jim Kelly.

6.  The point about players other than Kaepernick kneeling.

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1. Exactly, we are talking about 2 guys and you want to bring in 3 other guys irrelevant to the discussion.  Oh wait

2. Why would a team want to bring in a top 5 QB all time, just cleared healthy, and still in his prime?   The guy that set the TD record, MVP, and helped lead them to 2 SBs and win one. Is this really a question?

3. Already posted above where he was outdoing Elway in the same amount of games early in their respected careers

4. Yes failed to do the job that 2 guys you brought up did.  Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson

5.  But apply even more logic, did those guys win SB MVP?

6. Whoosh

Note to self:  attack the post, not the poster-no matter how tempting it may be to do the latter.

2.  Manning was NOT in his prime when Denver brought him in.  He was 36.  Did he still have some good years?  Yes, but it doesn't mean he was in his prime.   Thirty six is NOT  an NFL player's prime.  It is a legitimate question because Denver just spent a first round pick on Tebow!  If Tebow were developing into a superstar, Denver would not have traded for Manning.  Long term it makes no sense for them to do so.

3.  After EIGHT games?!?  Whoop de do!  That and fifty cents still won't get you a cup of coffee.  After three full years (the entirety of Tebow's career), we get a much clearer picture.  After Elway's career is over?!?  Let me guess...Tebow is still better?!?

4 & 5 But I didn't compare him to Johnson or Dilfer.  The comparison is with Smith, who QBed the same team as Kaepernick for several years, up until the year before Kaepernick took over.  Smith did not get the team to the Super Bowl.  Kaepernick did.  

6.  I'll take the whoosh since you didn't adequately make the point and I'm not going to make it for you.

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Worst to 1st.  Curse Reversed!

The league 'blackballed' Tebow.  What a [BLEEP] joke.  He sucked.  Tebow blackballed Tebow.  LOL

Tebowners clinging to that last thread...

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You know you’re a loser when you keep bringing up Tebow in NFL threads on a Jaguars message board....

Do you still wear your high school ring and talk about the good old days?

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You know you’re a loser when you keep bringing up Tebow in NFL threads on a Jaguars message board....

Do you still wear your high school ring and talk about the good old days?

"Loser"?  Lol, that's something you Maryland fans know all about.  It's still relevant though I'm sure, Tebow would still be better than Kap.  Kap was never good which is why he hasn't been on an NFL roster in a couple years.  Kap had to do this ploy to make himself relevant again, the truth hurts.  Tebow even got offered a contract to play other positions but turned it down.  Kap? He's just not good enough and it shows by the lack of offers

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1.  I'm talking NFL accomplishments, not college.  If you want to debate football accomplishments below the NFL level, there are any number of college and high school boards.

2.  Why would Denver pursue an expensive and near retirement age Peyton Manning if they already had "Tebow the great" on the roster, having expended a first round pick on him?

3.  Early in his career?!?  The stats I posted are Tebow's CAREER totals!  After three years, Elway already had a vastly better record as a starter (27-13 vs Tebow's 8-6), almost four times as many more yards (8152 vs Tebow's 2422), almost 6 times as many TDs (47 to Tebow's 8), a higher completion percentage (52.6 vs 47.9), and more 4th quarter comebacks (9-6).

4.  Alex Smith had the same team kaepernick did, and didn't take it to the Super Bowl.  Kaepernick took that team to the Super Bowl.

5.  It doesn't say anything bad about Foles.  Foles succeeded under Kelly and under Pederson.

6.  What in blazes are you talking about with your last point?

7.  Please, I beg you, stop saying Tebow outperformed Kaepernick, not to mention a first ballot Hall of Famer like John Freaking Elway.  There is ZERO objective factual basis for you to make that claim.

1.  Of course you dont want to discuss prior accomplishments before he goes to the league he got blackballed in.  It wouldnt be a contest

2. Why would they persue Peyton when they did? You mean the guy that set the TD record in Den and won MVP?  Yeah, why would they do that lol

3. Just posted his earlier stats above where he beat Elway in every catagory

4. Kap failed the job that Smith was set to do before he got hurt

5. Agreed, just shows the talent of Foles and a guy that can get the job done when taking over for an injured QB unlike Kap

6. which point?

7. Kap cant hold Tebows jock strap.  No seriously though, similar playing styles but he just wasnt on Tebows level

1.  I am only concerned about NFL accomplishments on an NFL board.  If were talking about college accomplishments, I'm sure we could bring such stalwarts like Johnny Manziel, Andre Ware, and Archie Griffin into the discussion.  But since we are talking about the NFL, and since those guys, like Tebow, accomplished jack [BLEEP] in the NFL, they aren't worth discussing, just like Tebow if you didn't insist on bringing him into a discussion that did not mention him.

2.  That is precisely my point!  Denver had just spent a 1st round pick on Tebow two years earlier.  If Tebow were performing like a competent NFL QB, they wouldn't have bothered bringing in Manning.  They would have let Tebow continue to develop.  Instead, they saw first hand what just about everyone else could see:  Tebow sucks.
Let's put this in more contemporary terms.  Why would Kansas City bother trading away Mahomes for Phillip Rivers?

3.   No...you didn't.  Not even close.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...waJo00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...boTi00.htm

4.  Failed to do the job?!?  Three points from winning a Super Bowl as opposed to never getting there?  Okay...?!?

5.  What in the world does Foles have to do with this conversation?  You have introduced two QBs completely irrelevant to the discussion.  If it will satisfy you, I will concede that Kaepernick is not as good as Foles on the basis of not being able to win a Super Bowl.  Of course, if you apply that logic to the population of QBs as a whole, you would get some questionable results, like Trent Dilfer being a better QB than Dan Marino and Brad Johnson being better than Jim Kelly.

6.  The point about players other than Kaepernick kneeling.

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Oh for crying out loud. Tebow and Kap are exactly the same; neither is talented enough for a team to put up with their circus.

So quarterbacking a team to the Super Bowl is not talented enough for a player who has not violated any laws or league rules?
[/quote]

Compared to the headache he would cause in any fanbase, no, it's not.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

You know you’re a loser when you keep bringing up Tebow in NFL threads on a Jaguars message board....

Do you still wear your high school ring and talk about the good old days?

"Loser"?  Lol, that's something you Maryland fans know all about.  It's still relevant though I'm sure, Tebow would still be better than Kap.  Kap was never good which is why he hasn't been on an NFL roster in a couple years.  Kap had to do this ploy to make himself relevant again, the truth hurts.  Tebow even got offered a contract to play other positions but turned it down.  Kap? He's just not good enough and it shows by the lack of offers

Yea.... Florida really taking the SEC by storm recently....

You should exclude yourself from any convo regarding Tebow because you’re so biased it’s borderline creepy. But just for fun, let's take a look at this from a couple viewpoints.

1. Why would the NFL want Tebow out of the league? Tebow mania gave the NFL great ratings and everyone was talking about him. He's bringing in money for a minor league baseball team so imagine what he could do for the NFL. I think the NFL wanted Tebow to be great because he would bring them so much extra money. They didn't want him to be terrible at throwing the football. It's the opposite.
2. You think the NFL was against him because he was outspoken? They do a prayer circle after every single game. Why haven't they banned them? Why aren't the going after Rivers, Dalton, Wentz and every other athlete who says "First off, I want to thank god."? Gotta go after them too right?

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huh,Bortles has looked like a bottom 5 QB in 3 different seasons, Kap has looked like a starter in all but one, even when he didn't have anything around him in 2016. That isn't comparable.

I disagree. I'm not going to make this into a pro-Bortles thread because I'm ready to move on from him too. Bortles's reputation is exaggerated. He's had bottom-5 stretches of games, but he's also had top-5 stretches. He's not a good QB, but he's not as bad as people pretend him to be, either. He's mostly middle-of-the-road. He certainly hasn't been bottom-5 throughout 3 different entire seasons.

Y'all must forget that Kaep had games I feel is worse than anything Bortles had. His 2015 Cardinals game ended with a 9/19 for 67 yards and 4 INTs. A sub-150 YPG, 4-5 YPA, or 50% game was not uncommon for post-2014 Kaep. 

[quote pid='1194168' dateline='1550513348']
Bullseye
(Emphasis added)

As to the italicized portion, I have a few questions for you...

1.  Have you seen the case law for collusion cases?

2.  Do you know what the standard is for summary judgment?

3.  Have you seen the discovery materials related to this case?

Perhaps that's why you don't understand why the suit was allowed to continue.

As to the portion in bold, taking your description of Kaepernick's skills at face value, there are plenty of QBs that have been in the league the past 2-3 years that never even reached the "just decent" level of play, including Blaine Gabbert, Nathan Peterman, and Cody Kessler.

As to the assessment of his last two seasons, I am mystified as to which two seasons you refer.

Statistically, he had one bad season where he had a rating in the 70s....that was 2015, where he had a rating of 78.5.  Beyond that, his post Super Bowl appearance seasons had ratings of 86.4, 78.5, and 90.7-his last year (the one where he was "beaten out" by Gabbert).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...epCo00.htm

If you want to cite his record as a starter, note the defense in his last year was rock bottom in the league in many many categories, including points allowed and yards.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/t...o/2016.htm

Also note the team's W-L problems continued after he left.  As it stands now, the 49ers pick 2nd in the draft.  It isn't because of Kaepernick, and they didn't trade up to get that spot.

It's disingenuous to blame him for all of that.

No, admittedly I don't know what's required for collusion cases, but I also wouldn't assume his case would justify an estimated $60M settlement. A number, if true, is likely significantly less than what he asked. I don't pretend to know if his case is text book collusion, but that's also partly why I said I don't understand why it was allowed to continued. Similarly, I'd ask if you know (and how you know) if his case is one of collusion. It's difficult to understand your first and second points since I don't know of any other instances in sports where collusion was cited. 

I think you may be confusing my point.

I never said he didn't belong in the NFL. I do believe teams avoided him because of his protesting, but I believe teams use personal reasons to avoid players. If he was good enough to overlook his protesting, I don't doubt he'd still be on a team. My stance is that he's overrated and hasn't produced a season worthy of praise. He had a couple decent seasons. However, like how you contribute some of their failures to their defense, I contribute some of their success to the defense.

Defensive rankings:
2012--3rd
2013--5th
2014--10th
2015--29th
2016--32nd

I think this hurts your stance. They were only good when their defense was good. Kaep was just good enough to take advantage of that, but he wasn't good enough to overcome it.

(Emphasis added)

I will not go into the case law regarding collusion, other than to say there were plenty of collusion cases in the major league baseball context. I would also add Kaepernick's attorney is a long time and famous attorney.  I'm betting he researched the proper cause9s) of action before filing suit.

As to the portion in bold, I would like to point out a few things:

1.  Alex Smith had the same defense and still couldn't reach the Super Bowl.  Kaepernick did reach the Super bowl with the same team.  Admittedly, I haveb't taken an inventory (physical or mental) of your posts, nor have I utilized the search feature, but I do not recall any decrees from you lamenting the overrated status of Alex Smith.

2.  During his last season with the 49ers, Kaepernick had a 16-4 TD-INT ratio.  How can he be blamed for the failure of the defense?  How can he be blamed for Gabbert's failures?  Gabbert started ten (10) fewer games and threw two more INTs than Kaepernick. I think the premise that Kaep was only good when the defense was good is false.

On a related note, how much is a QB supposed to overcome?  If you have a star caliber QB and the rest of the team stinks, should the star QB take the blame if the team does not have a winning record?  Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan have made pro Bowls and Super Bowls, but both finished with losing records this past season.  Does this mean they are no longer good QBs?
[/quote]

The mere filing of a lawsuit doesn't validate it's existence. 

1. Alex Smith is overrated, too. But he's far better than anything Kaep has ever been. I'm not sure I have to openly criticize someone to have an opinion. I wouldn't say what I'm doing with Kaep as lamenting, either. I simply think he's overrated, and he brings too much drama to justify his place on a team.

2. That's a decent TD-INT ratio. He was also had 59.2% and 186 YPG. The defense isn't solely responsible for their failures. The largest contributor? Sure. He didn't do anything to help his team... which is my point. He isn't a good QB. Because he isn't a good QB, he isn't worth the heartache. Your TD-INT ratio doesn't prove he was good. We know that, when given the burden of carrying the team, he failed miserably. Great defenses carry bad QBs all the time (Jags last year). What makes you think the 49ers were an exception?

3. I think a decent QB can at least achieve 62% and 220 YPG in today's NFL. The standard that a good QB must win a pro-bowl or Superbowl is one you set. Kaep couldn't even consistently drive his offense downfield. Their bad defense didn't stop them from doing that.

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huh,Bortles has looked like a bottom 5 QB in 3 different seasons, Kap has looked like a starter in all but one, even when he didn't have anything around him in 2016. That isn't comparable.

I disagree. I'm not going to make this into a pro-Bortles thread because I'm ready to move on from him too. Bortles's reputation is exaggerated. He's had bottom-5 stretches of games, but he's also had top-5 stretches. He's not a good QB, but he's not as bad as people pretend him to be, either. He's mostly middle-of-the-road. He certainly hasn't been bottom-5 throughout 3 different entire seasons.

Y'all must forget that Kaep had games I feel is worse than anything Bortles had. His 2015 Cardinals game ended with a 9/19 for 67 yards and 4 INTs. A sub-150 YPG, 4-5 YPA, or 50% game was not uncommon for post-2014 Kaep. 

No, admittedly I don't know what's required for collusion cases, but I also wouldn't assume his case would justify an estimated $60M settlement. A number, if true, is likely significantly less than what he asked. I don't pretend to know if his case is text book collusion, but that's also partly why I said I don't understand why it was allowed to continued. Similarly, I'd ask if you know (and how you know) if his case is one of collusion. It's difficult to understand your first and second points since I don't know of any other instances in sports where collusion was cited. 

I think you may be confusing my point.

I never said he didn't belong in the NFL. I do believe teams avoided him because of his protesting, but I believe teams use personal reasons to avoid players. If he was good enough to overlook his protesting, I don't doubt he'd still be on a team. My stance is that he's overrated and hasn't produced a season worthy of praise. He had a couple decent seasons. However, like how you contribute some of their failures to their defense, I contribute some of their success to the defense.

Defensive rankings:
2012--3rd
2013--5th
2014--10th
2015--29th
2016--32nd

I think this hurts your stance. They were only good when their defense was good. Kaep was just good enough to take advantage of that, but he wasn't good enough to overcome it.

(Emphasis added)

I will not go into the case law regarding collusion, other than to say there were plenty of collusion cases in the major league baseball context. I would also add Kaepernick's attorney is a long time and famous attorney.  I'm betting he researched the proper cause9s) of action before filing suit.

As to the portion in bold, I would like to point out a few things:

1.  Alex Smith had the same defense and still couldn't reach the Super Bowl.  Kaepernick did reach the Super bowl with the same team.  Admittedly, I haveb't taken an inventory (physical or mental) of your posts, nor have I utilized the search feature, but I do not recall any decrees from you lamenting the overrated status of Alex Smith.

2.  During his last season with the 49ers, Kaepernick had a 16-4 TD-INT ratio.  How can he be blamed for the failure of the defense?  How can he be blamed for Gabbert's failures?  Gabbert started ten (10) fewer games and threw two more INTs than Kaepernick. I think the premise that Kaep was only good when the defense was good is false.

On a related note, how much is a QB supposed to overcome?  If you have a star caliber QB and the rest of the team stinks, should the star QB take the blame if the team does not have a winning record?  Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan have made pro Bowls and Super Bowls, but both finished with losing records this past season.  Does this mean they are no longer good QBs?

The mere filing of a lawsuit doesn't validate it's existence. 

1. Alex Smith is overrated, too. But he's far better than anything Kaep has ever been. I'm not sure I have to openly criticize someone to have an opinion. I wouldn't say what I'm doing with Kaep as lamenting, either. I simply think he's overrated, and he brings too much drama to justify his place on a team.

2. That's a decent TD-INT ratio. He was also had 59.2% and 186 YPG. The defense isn't solely responsible for their failures. The largest contributor? Sure. He didn't do anything to help his team... which is my point. He isn't a good QB. Because he isn't a good QB, he isn't worth the heartache. Your TD-INT ratio doesn't prove he was good. We know that, when given the burden of carrying the team, he failed miserably. Great defenses carry bad QBs all the time (Jags last year). What makes you think the 49ers were an exception?

3. I think a decent QB can at least achieve 62% and 220 YPG in today's NFL. The standard that a good QB must win a pro-bowl or Superbowl is one you set. Kaep couldn't even consistently drive his offense downfield. Their bad defense didn't stop them from doing that.
[/quote]

Blake was one of the worst QBs in the league in 2014, 2016 and 2018. Backed up by stats and , more importantly, by watching him

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Mmmmmmmmmmmmm I'm gonna stick to my guns, and my eyeballs, on this one.

Kaepernick was a good QB, and had plenty in the tank when he started kneeling. Like I said earlier, for various reasons, no way Khan could touch him. Dallas's owner Jimmy Johnson (just kidding, Bullseye), also wasn't going to touch him. Of the other 30 teams, probably 10 signed QBs in a prominent backup role or at starter that were worse than Kaepernick during his time unemployed. Including his old team.

Who knows, maybe his beatdown of the Jags in London in 2013 is sticking in my brain. By the way, in both 2012 and 2013, the 9ers playoff run ended with losses to the eventual SB champions.

I don't think Kaepernick was suddenly finished after 2 great years. He was good enough to play in the NFL. I'll finish with this: I could see how, without collusion or malice aforethought for Kaepernick, 32 teams didn't want to risk alienating their fanbase to upgrade their offense.

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