This thread should be titled Is Caldwell Really that Good.

Let's go through the motions of reality. Caldwell as the Jaguar's GM literally built us an Damn good team w/respect to Fowler, Ramsey, AR15, Campbell, Jack, T. Smith, LF27 plus some. It wasnt until Coughlin came into the frey to which the wheels fell off the wagon. In addition to that, look at what Caldwell has accomplished since the departure of Coughlin w/respect to the salary cap. In my personal opinion Caldwell has performed Very Well when he makes the final decisions.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

Exactly.  I swear some of these guys are just trolls defending caldwell.

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the Jags GM built us a team so "good" it wasn't even slightly sustainable and didn't achieve anything until Tom came into the fold. 

people have such slanted views on Caldwell simply because they don't know what a good FO looks like relative to the rest of the league.

That's your opinion/observation and I respect that. The fact still remains that our playoff year (2017) was Tom's first year back w/the team. He made little to no personnel decisions that would reflect the team. The scouting reports were already in. What he did do was push key players such as I mentioned away w/his Old School ways of doing things and it dismantled the team that Caldwell built for the past four years. 

I feel that Caldwell will again build us an stellar team as long as he's making the final decisions to which Mr. Khan feels the same way.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

Many of the free agents like Campbell said they came here because of coughlin.  Cmon get real.

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Exactly.  I swear some of these guys are just trolls defending caldwell.

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That's your opinion/observation and I respect that. The fact still remains that our playoff year (2017) was Tom's first year back w/the team. He made little to no personnel decisions that would reflect the team. The scouting reports were already in. What he did do was push key players such as I mentioned away w/his Old School ways of doing things and it dismantled the team that Caldwell built for the past four years. 

I feel that Caldwell will again build us an stellar team as long as he's making the final decisions to which Mr. Khan feels the same way.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

Many of the free agents like Campbell said they came here because of coughlin.  Cmon get real.

Many?  Name them...along with a few links that indicate that.

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your first paragraph is not actually based on any evidence. Tom most certainly did have his finger prints on the team year 1, numerous reports about that regarding draft/FA/philosophy/personnel decisions. 

And yes I don't think Tom did a good job either, in fact quite the opposite. But people love playing both sides of the Caldwell argument and excuse him for things went wrong but give him credit for the ones than went right. 

The reality is the team Caldwell and Tom "built", was not even slightly sustainable with massive holes on offense. So it's a myth that Caldwell built some powerhouse Tom tore down

Let's just spell this out plainly. 

Caldwell built a talent rich defensive roster and Tom played a major role in its demise. (Yan&Ramsey) 

The offensive side of the ball and the overall staff was still found lacking regardless of Caldwell and Coughlin's efforts.

To be blunt, 2017 would not have happened without Coughlin.  As I stated earlier Campbell and a few other free agents came here because of Coughlin.  Also his discipline can also be attributed to the winning in 2017.  The truth is he was a fall guy last year.   Sure he made bad decisions but the whole front office deserves some blame for the disaster of last year.  I remember Marrone talking about taking it easy in practices and such.   Tom was the fall guy.  

Since 2013 this team has a mountain of salary cap, tons of ammunition with top 5 picks in the draft, and a state that has no income tax.  This team is rebuilding yet again and Caldwell has been the man the majority of it.  Most people agree he should of been fired.  I remember the reaction that this front office was going to return this year.  It was mostly negative across the board because most fans are tired of the crap.

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Interesting in the same article where he says that Coughlin was ONE of the reason, that he ALSO praises Caldwell.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/03/15/calais...cy-signing

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biggest reason anyone came to jacksonville was money imo

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Let's just spell this out plainly. 

Caldwell built a talent rich defensive roster and Tom played a major role in its demise. (Yan&Ramsey) 

The offensive side of the ball and the overall staff was still found lacking regardless of Caldwell and Coughlin's efforts.

To be blunt, 2017 would not have happened without Coughlin.  As I stated earlier Campbell and a few other free agents came here because of Coughlin.  Also his discipline can also be attributed to the winning in 2017.  The truth is he was a fall guy last year.   Sure he made bad decisions but the whole front office deserves some blame for the disaster of last year.  I remember Marrone talking about taking it easy in practices and such.   Tom was the fall guy.  

Since 2013 this team has a mountain of salary cap, tons of ammunition with top 5 picks in the draft, and a state that has no income tax.  This team is rebuilding yet again and Caldwell has been the man the majority of it.  Most people agree he should of been fired.  I remember the reaction that this front office was going to return this year.  It was mostly negative across the board because most fans are tired of the crap.

Meh

You're making too much out of Coughlin's influence on the Campbell signing. Here's the quote from Campbell:

 I really liked [executive vice president] Tom Coughlin. I’ve always respected him from playing against his team over the years. I like the way he carries himself. His organization has always been top-notch and guys that play for him always say good things about him. Then you look at what they did in free agency and I think it shows they’re committed to winning. Great draft classes the last couple years, so you feel like the GM [Dave Caldwell] has the team headed in the right direction.

Anyway - my post was merely clarification on the talent discussion. Not some summary of 2017 and who did what that year. 
  
Dave brought a lot of great defensive talent to the table for the Jaguars. 
What he didn't do was place a winning staff, QB or OL.  That's why I thought he'd be gone 6 months ago. But here we are. 

All Coughlin did in 2017 was make it more difficult to judge exactly what blame Caldwell does or does not deserve for that offseason.  Well, that and piss off the NFLPA and a slew of young Jags.

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the Jags GM built us a team so "good" it wasn't even slightly sustainable and didn't achieve anything until Tom came into the fold. 

people have such slanted views on Caldwell simply because they don't know what a good FO looks like relative to the rest of the league.

That's your opinion/observation and I respect that. The fact still remains that our playoff year (2017) was Tom's first year back w/the team. He made little to no personnel decisions that would reflect the team. The scouting reports were already in. What he did do was push key players such as I mentioned away w/his Old School ways of doing things and it dismantled the team that Caldwell built for the past four years. 

I feel that Caldwell will again build us an stellar team as long as he's making the final decisions to which Mr. Khan feels the same way.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

LOL you are funny. You really need a stand up comic routine.

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Exactly.  I swear some of these guys are just trolls defending caldwell.

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That's your opinion/observation and I respect that. The fact still remains that our playoff year (2017) was Tom's first year back w/the team. He made little to no personnel decisions that would reflect the team. The scouting reports were already in. What he did do was push key players such as I mentioned away w/his Old School ways of doing things and it dismantled the team that Caldwell built for the past four years. 

I feel that Caldwell will again build us an stellar team as long as he's making the final decisions to which Mr. Khan feels the same way.

Time Will Tell.

NH3...

Many of the free agents like Campbell said they came here because of coughlin.  Cmon get real.

Bro, you hear/see something and twist it into whatever you want it to be. Not one person here is saying Caldwell was perfect but yet you've got it twisted around like we are saying hes some kind of great GM. Pointing out some things hes done good isn't saying hes good or great. You did the exact same thing with the quote from Calais. He made a comment on liking Coughlin, doesn't mean without Coughlin he doesn't come. Stop twisting everything. 

btw are you and Raven related? I feel like i sense a resemblance.

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In Dougie I Trust!

biggest reason anyone came to jacksonville was money imo

The biggest reason any player goes anywhere is because of the money.

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biggest reason anyone came to jacksonville was money imo

The biggest reason any player goes anywhere is because of the money.

Nobody ever took less to go to Cleveland, but some have taken less to stay in Dallas and New England.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

The biggest reason any player goes anywhere is because of the money.

Nobody ever took less to go to Cleveland, but some have taken less to stay in Dallas and New England.

There’s always exceptions but customarily professional players go where the most money is being offered.

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biggest reason anyone came to jacksonville was money imo

Disagree.  Some players that really suck, take a look at our existing roster, then come here knowing they can make the team and potentially become a starter.

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I don't think anyone would have been shocked if Dave was fired after last year. With one exception, the teams over his tenure have not been good enough.

Since he is still here, I will choose to be positive about him moving forward. I would like to believe that someone knowledgeable about the debates between Tom and Dave could quickly determine who the problem was in hindsight. For example, if Shad knows for a fact Dave pushed for Watson or Mahomes and was overruled by Tom, he may be giving him some credit for those discussions. Of course the general public will never know what Tom and Dave's player preferences were during that time.

I do know that Shad made a tough decision keeping the current group in place. The natives (including myself) wanted them fired. If he had gone that route, he could sell hope for the future to the fans very easily. He could also sell the upcoming draft capital and cap room to GM and coaching candidates. Hopefully some potential he sees outweighs these other aspects. Emphasis on the hope...

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biggest reason anyone came to jacksonville was money imo

Disagree.  Some players that really suck, take a look at our existing roster, then come here knowing they can make the team and potentially become a starter.

Agreed! But I'm talking about the good players

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Nobody ever took less to go to Cleveland, but some have taken less to stay in Dallas and New England.

There’s always exceptions but customarily professional players go where the most money is being offered.

Exactly. I mean, just look at the video of Calais on the phone when he hears the jags are offering 5 million more over the contract length. That is NOT a small difference even if it pales to the total contract value

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Exactly.  I swear some of these guys are just trolls defending caldwell.

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Many of the free agents like Campbell said they came here because of coughlin.  Cmon get real.

Bro, you hear/see something and twist it into whatever you want it to be. Not one person here is saying Caldwell was perfect but yet you've got it twisted around like we are saying hes some kind of great GM. Pointing out some things hes done good isn't saying hes good or great. You did the exact same thing with the quote from Calais. He made a comment on liking Coughlin, doesn't mean without Coughlin he doesn't come. Stop twisting everything. 

btw are you and Raven related? I feel like i sense a resemblance.

I too noticed the resemblance.

NH3...

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"AZANE"

Disagree.  Some players that really suck, take a look at our existing roster, then come here knowing they can make the team and potentially become a starter.

Agreed! But I'm talking about the good players

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There’s always exceptions but customarily professional players go where the most money is being offered.

Exactly. I mean, just look at the video of Calais on the phone when he hears the jags are offering 5 million more over the contract length. That is NOT a small difference even if it pales to the total contract value

And if Denver had offered the same terms for 500k less then he wouldn't have come here. Crap franchises have to more than overpay to get good players in free agency while big market and winning franchises only have to pay market rate.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I don't think anyone would have been shocked if Dave was fired after last year.  With one exception, the teams over his tenure have not been good enough.  

Since he is still here, I will choose to be positive about him moving forward.  I would like to believe that someone knowledgeable about the debates between Tom and Dave could quickly determine who the problem was in hindsight.  For example, if Shad knows for a fact Dave pushed for Watson or Mahomes and was overruled by Tom, he may be giving him some credit for those discussions.  Of course the general public will never know what Tom and Dave's player preferences were during that time.

I do know that Shad made a tough decision keeping the current group in place.  The natives (including myself) wanted them fired.  If he had gone that route, he could sell hope for the future to the fans very easily.  He could also sell the upcoming draft capital and cap room to GM and coaching candidates.  Hopefully some potential he sees outweighs these other aspects.  Emphasis on the hope...

Pretty much how I feel about the situation too. I still think there should have been a clean sweep after last year, but I respect how Caldwell has gone about business this off-season. 

My gut tells me Caldwell has everything needed to be a very good GM, whether that will ever happen or not remains to be seen, but seems unlikely.

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I don't think anyone would have been shocked if Dave was fired after last year.  With one exception, the teams over his tenure have not been good enough.  

Since he is still here, I will choose to be positive about him moving forward.  I would like to believe that someone knowledgeable about the debates between Tom and Dave could quickly determine who the problem was in hindsight.  For example, if Shad knows for a fact Dave pushed for Watson or Mahomes and was overruled by Tom, he may be giving him some credit for those discussions.  Of course the general public will never know what Tom and Dave's player preferences were during that time.

I do know that Shad made a tough decision keeping the current group in place.  The natives (including myself) wanted them fired.  If he had gone that route, he could sell hope for the future to the fans very easily.  He could also sell the upcoming draft capital and cap room to GM and coaching candidates.  Hopefully some potential he sees outweighs these other aspects.  Emphasis on the hope...

FINALLY!!! Someone posting rationally and as per how Mr. Khan made the decision to retain Caldwell and Marrone while firing Coughlin before the season ended. 

NH3...

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"AZANE"

I don't think anyone would have been shocked if Dave was fired after last year.  With one exception, the teams over his tenure have not been good enough.  

Since he is still here, I will choose to be positive about him moving forward.  I would like to believe that someone knowledgeable about the debates between Tom and Dave could quickly determine who the problem was in hindsight.  For example, if Shad knows for a fact Dave pushed for Watson or Mahomes and was overruled by Tom, he may be giving him some credit for those discussions.  Of course the general public will never know what Tom and Dave's player preferences were during that time.

I do know that Shad made a tough decision keeping the current group in place.  The natives (including myself) wanted them fired.  If he had gone that route, he could sell hope for the future to the fans very easily.  He could also sell the upcoming draft capital and cap room to GM and coaching candidates.  Hopefully some potential he sees outweighs these other aspects.  Emphasis on the hope...

Pretty much how I feel about the situation too. I still think there should have been a clean sweep after last year, but I respect how Caldwell has gone about business this off-season. 

My gut tells me Caldwell has everything needed to be a very good GM, whether that will ever happen or not remains to be seen, but seems unlikely.

I am not insulting you but I got to ask did you eat something bad?  Your gut should be telling you the very opposite.  Outside of 2017 with Tom Coughlin as boss, Caldwell and his teams has just been atrocious.   The true measure of a team is how much they win.  Breaking news, the Jags have not been doing lots of winning lately.  This past draft IMO was pretty weak factoring in the draft capital.

There is several in this thread I could continue to debate with but it's pointless.  When you factor is the Amount Draft capital and the amount of cap space and see the results.  It's not even a debate.  I do not think anyone outside of Jacksonville would debate that Caldwell is not only a lackluster GM, but a bad one.

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Pretty much how I feel about the situation too. I still think there should have been a clean sweep after last year, but I respect how Caldwell has gone about business this off-season. 

My gut tells me Caldwell has everything needed to be a very good GM, whether that will ever happen or not remains to be seen, but seems unlikely.

I am not insulting you but I got to ask did you eat something bad?  Your gut should be telling you the very opposite.  Outside of 2017 with Tom Coughlin as boss, Caldwell and his teams has just been atrocious.   The true measure of a team is how much they win.  Breaking news, the Jags have not been doing lots of winning lately.  This past draft IMO was pretty weak factoring in the draft capital.

There is several in this thread I could continue to debate with but it's pointless.  When you factor is the Amount Draft capital and the amount of cap space and see the results.  It's not even a debate.  I do not think anyone outside of Jacksonville would debate that Caldwell is not only a lackluster GM, but a bad one.

Did you factor in the players that were jettisoned from our team to which they stated that Coughlin was the reasoning? I too LOVE Coughlin but I will not ignore his demise w/respect to our team. Coughlin dismantled Caldwell's roster and that is the reason that Coughlin is gone and Caldwell remains to be our GM. 

Point Blank.

NH3...

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"AZANE"