Quote:Everyone gets stonewalled. JJ Watt gets stonewalled.
Beasley and Gregory win matchups against good players. Fowler rarely does. He sets the edge well in the run game sideline to sideline, but once a decent tackle gets into his pads, he's done. The problem is that you rarely win the 1v1 matchups unless you can get the tackles off balance, and Fowler lacks the power to move a tackle in a straight up matchup. Watch La'el Collins and Cam Robinson run him over.
Good player - he just needs the weight room badly. He's young and his body has already improved massively since he walked onto campus, but its something he really needs to continue working on and at a greater pace.
Gregory and Beasely win because their speed in college scared OT's. Any of these pass rushers get beat when an OT gets their hands into their pads, that's the 1 v 1 game. Nothing you said is specific to Folwer and if anything he looks like he plays with more power than the other guys even though his reps were not as high as a guy like Beasely.
Quote:You are a 10th percentile Jr. pretend scout.
I'd be upset too, that bar at #3 is set high. Unfortunately Fowler's anemic 32" vertical won't be able to reach it. Hopefully he won't come up too short, though.
Quote:i dont think he has strength concerns.... not in terms of playing strength anyway. maybe he doesnt put up as many reps in the weight room, but fowler is one of, if not the pass rusher i have the most faith in to be able to win 1 on 1 in the NFL.
guys like gregory and beasley get stonewalled. fowler moves players.
Agreed.
I thought it was interesting to see what Willie McGinest said last night on the NFL network about the selection. He said that Fowler had the best hands of the pass rush guys, and that he had the strength to shed blocks. He's versatile and can be an every down guy out there. He also said (paraphrasing) that Fowler plays with a certain level of violence that is going to make him a huge asset in our defense. Didn't hear him mention that Fowler has strength issues. Quite the opposite.
Quote:Gregory and Beasely win because their speed in college scared OT's. Any of these pass rushers get beat when an OT gets their hands into their pads, that's the 1 v 1 game. Nothing you said is specific to Folwer and if anything he looks like he plays with more power than the other guys even though his reps were not as high as a guy like Beasely.
Beasley plays with speed, but he has a lot of pop. You watch him and its speed, speed, speed, speed, and then boom, he jolts a tackle. Gregory didn't have the same suddenness as Beasley, but he could walk back tackles (usually with hands to the face).
Fowler only demonstrates his strength when he is on the move. He brings a lot of pop timing snap counts and blowing up full backs or when he meets running backs in the backfield. As far as coming out of a 3 point stance over a NFL quality left tackle, he is always overpowered.
I hate that the Colts got Phillip Dorsett. Now we have to deal with TY Hilton, Andre Johnson, and another burner. We need some more weapons like this, and hopefully they will address this in rounds 2-4.
So he'll get small reps in a crowded LEO rotation, collect maybe 2-3 sacks, and we can write off another Gator DE bust. Sounds like a plan.
Quote:So he'll get small reps in a crowded LEO rotation, collect maybe 2-3 sacks, and we can write off another Gator DE bust. Sounds like a plan.
Thanks for the thoughtful insight as usual.
I'm not even calling him a bust like a lot of others. He will be solid and unspectacular. Just not as good as a handful of other guys we could have had.
Quote:I hate that the Colts got Phillip Dorsett. Now we have to deal with TY Hilton, Andre Johnson, and another burner. We need some more weapons like this, and hopefully they will address this in rounds 2-4.
We also need a defense that can deal with disrupting the timing against offenses with that kind of speed.
Quote:I'd be upset too, that bar at #3 is set high. Unfortunately Fowler's anemic 32" vertical won't be able to reach it. Hopefully he won't come up too short, though.
Maybe your vertical can.
So Washington and Atlanta both had him as the highest rated edge defender. At least the NFL teams are thinking in the same line as Dave.
Fowler should have very little impact this year with such a crowded LEO rotation. If he stays healthy and makes meaningful snaps when he does get opportunity then I think he can, with an offseason, get stronger and learn more to become our starter at LEO.
Quote:Beasley plays with speed, but he has a lot of pop. You watch him and its speed, speed, speed, speed, and then boom, he jolts a tackle. Gregory didn't have the same suddenness as Beasley, but he could walk back tackles (usually with hands to the face).
Fowler only demonstrates his strength when he is on the move. He brings a lot of pop timing snap counts and blowing up full backs or when he meets running backs in the backfield. As far as coming out of a 3 point stance over a NFL quality left tackle, he is always overpowered.
I didnt see that at all from Beasely. I saw a guy who, to his credit, would scare guys up field with speed then later on use their overset and win with an up under or like you pointed out get them off balance and bull rush them back. IMO it wasn't pop, they're completely off balanced trying to kick slide out to him. All if that is great and a credit to Beasley's get off, not taking anything away from him. My concern is that many of the OT's in the NFL are a lot better athletes and are much more able to handle speed rushes. Can Beasley win after a OT slides out to cover him up like many in college couldn't?
Fowler doesn't have that speed and uses his hands better IMO. Does he need improvement, of course. But from what I've seen when he hits an OT with those heavy hands they can feel it.
I'm not trying to pimp Fowler over Beasley or anything like that. That's just what I've seen. We can disagree but you have valid concerns as do I. Fowler is still young and can definitely continue to add strength.
Quote:We also need a defense that can deal with disrupting the timing against offenses with that kind of speed.
I agree, and I'm not down on Fowler at all. I think they need to turn to offense now.
Quote:Fowler should have very little impact this year with such a crowded LEO rotation. If he stays healthy and makes meaningful snaps when he does get opportunity then I think he can, with an offseason, get stronger and learn more to become our starter at LEO.
I don't agree. You don't draft a guy at #3 to have little impact, and a few meaningful snaps. The experts like Mayock and Greg Cosell love him, and consider him the best defensive player in the draft. I watched every game he played in college, and he does not lack power. He has very long arms, so don't be fooled by bench press numbers. 6'3, 260, 4.6 and a great motor.
Quote:I didnt see that at all from Beasely. I saw a guy who, to his credit, would scare guys up field with speed then later on use their overset and win with an up under or like you pointed out get them off balance and bull rush them back. IMO it wasn't pop, they're completely off balanced trying to kick slide out to him. All if that is great and a credit to Beasley's get off, not taking anything away from him. My concern is that many of the OT's in the NFL are a lot better athletes and are much more able to handle speed rushes. Can Beasley win after a OT slides out to cover him up like many in college couldn't?
Fowler doesn't have that speed and uses his hands better IMO. Does he need improvement, of course. But from what I've seen when he hits an OT with those heavy hands they can feel it.
I'm not trying to pimp Fowler over Beasley or anything like that. That's just what I've seen. We can disagree but you have valid concerns as do I. Fowler is still young and can definitely continue to add strength.
That's mostly what I saw. Beasley sets them up with speed and would occasionally finish with power. I wasn't trying to state he would win with a straight bull rush off the snap against an NFL tackle.
I guess what I'm mostly trying to say is that I have doubts about Fowler being able to win out of a 3 point stance. He needs to get stronger in order to win those battles, because he doesn't have the elite first step, quick twitch acceleration, or repertoire of pass rush moves to win in other ways. Not saying he's bad in any of those categories, he's certainly good (worthy of a 1st round pick good), but none are good enough to scare an NFL tackle. You can see where the strength issues come into play when he doesn't win off the snap - and he's not elite off the snap in the first place (from a 3 point stance). Not that its a big deal from the LEO position, but in the power run game he isn't strong enough to hold his ground.
Quote:I don't agree. You don't draft a guy at #3 to have little impact, and a few meaningful snaps. The experts like Mayock and Greg Cosell love him, and consider him the best defensive player in the draft. I watched every game he played in college, and he does not lack power. He has very long arms, so don't be fooled by bench press numbers. 6'3, 260, 4.6 and a great motor.
On the move, he certainly doesn't lack power. A 265 pounder that runs a 4.6 and has a high motor and aggressive playstyle will generate a lot of power when moving. His lack of power is evident when he doesn't have the momentum behind it, such as coming out of a 3 point stance.
He may be a better OTTO fit than LEO at this point of his career. Once he gains some strength and refines working out of a 3 point stance, sure LEO sounds great.
Quote:So Washington and Atlanta both had him as the highest rated edge defender. At least the NFL teams are thinking in the same line as Dave.
What?! You mean a few idiots on this board that have no real experience in scouting dont have credibility?
Quote:On the move, he certainly doesn't lack power. A 265 pounder that runs a 4.6 and has a high motor and aggressive playstyle will generate a lot of power when moving. His lack of power is evident when he doesn't have the momentum behind it, such as coming out of a 3 point stance.
He may be a better OTTO fit than LEO at this point of his career. Once he gains some strength and refines working out of a 3 point stance, sure LEO sounds great.
I thought the OTTO was more of a run support role though, so wouldn't his "lack" of strength be more of a liability at that position?
(and I agree with your point about strength on the move, vs. from a static position)
OTTO is mostly outside edge run support, which is something Fowler does well. Again, its the power of movement thing. They also do a lot of pass rushing or short zones depending on the scheme. For Fowler, 1st and 2nd down outside edge run support and then you would move him around on passing downs similar to Ryan Davis.