Quote:No I'm not avoiding the question.
How do you avoid getting arrested, if innocent people get arrested?
With the occasional exception of mistaken identity how many truly innocent people do you imagine get arrested? Perhaps we need to define what innocent is?
Quote:That is great. But do you have any evidence that the police did it intentionally? You don't? Right, because you are speculating.
It doesn't matter. At a minimum it's criminal negligence at worst it's manslaughter. This is clearly way to complex for you to understand. All you care is a person died and are gleeful over it. Pathetic
Quote:With the occasional exception of mistaken identity how many truly innocent people do you imagine get arrested? Perhaps we need to define what innocent is?
A lot.
It's not just mistaken identity. There's a lot of things including police misconduct and bad witnesses (including witnesses who lie) that lead to arrests. If the justice system were so perfect that it only (except in cases of mistaken identity) arrested the bad guys, then we wouldn't need to have innocent until proven guilty, the entire 5th amendment, the right to a fair trial, and a lawyer wouldn't have to be appointed for you if you couldn't afford one.
Quote:It doesn't matter. At a minimum it's criminal negligence at worst it's manslaughter. This is clearly way to complex for you to understand. All you care is a person died and are gleeful over it. Pathetic
Evidence doesn't matter?
Argument and opinions discarded, back to grade school with ye.
Quote:Evidence doesn't matter?
Argument and opinions discarded, back to grade school with ye.
Evidence does matter in what charges are brought up on the officers involved yes absolutely. Where is your supposed evidence that not only this person deserved to die but that it was a good thing? Oh right you do don't have any other than your inner glee that a criminal was killed.
Quote:We are talking about deaths, not arrests. Though in the case that sparked this conversation in general, there was no probable cause.
Is suspicious behavior enough to draw attention from the police?
Is running from the police suspicious behavior?
Is it permissible for the police to detain you and ask you questions if you are acting suspiciously?
If once you have drawn the attention of the police and they find you have broken the law is that probable cause?
Again that fact that Freddy Gray is dead at the hands of police officers while riding in a van is inexcusable. Let's not pretend that his actions did not put him in the van in the first place.
Quote:Sure that's what you're saying. At least that's how it reads to me.
Yes, that's exactly what I was responding to. But go ahead and pretend it wasn't if you think it makes your argument stronger. Being arrested doesn't make you guilty of a crime. You don't need numbers to support that -- because it's the law. You're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Just because you go out of your way to read it in a certain manner, it doesn't change a thing. And I find it amusing how you keep repeating "innocent until proven guilty" and yet have totally convicted the cops in this situation already.
Quote:Just because you go out of your way to read it in a certain manner, it doesn't change a thing. And I find it amusing how you keep repeating "innocent until proven guilty" and yet have totally convicted the cops in this situation already.
Okay, so you explain how Freddie Gray ended up dead in the back of the police van, without any misconduct by police whatsoever. Go on. I'll be waiting. I also don't think I'm the one going out my my way to read it in a certain way.
Quote:Is suspicious behavior enough to draw attention from the police?
Is running from the police suspicious behavior?
Is it permissible for the police to detain you and ask you questions if you are acting suspiciously?
If once you have drawn the attention of the police and they find you have broken the law is that probable cause?
Again that fact that Freddy Gray is dead at the hands of police officers while riding in a van is inexcusable. Let's not pretend that his actions did not put him in the van in the first place.
While your logic is sound from a legal stand point it is wrong.
I posted the legal backing that fleeing, in and of itself, is not probable cause.
Quote:Evidence does matter in what charges are brought up on the officers involved yes absolutely. Where is your supposed evidence that not only this person deserved to die but that it was a good thing? Oh right you do don't have any other than your inner glee that a criminal was killed.
I'm curious about your attempts to twist this into a certain narrative here.
You've accused this poster of being gleeful about the death of another human being, and now you're saying this poster felt this guy deserved to die. Feel free to point out where he has celebrated the death or where he's said the death was deserved. Otherwise, your hyperbole really discredits your position because you're willing to misrepresent the truth.
Quote:Okay, so you explain how Freddie Gray ended up dead in the back of the police van, without any misconduct by police whatsoever. Go on. I'll be waiting. I also don't think I'm the one going out my my way to read it in a certain way.
I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, but since you apparently have all the facts, you tell me what exactly happened. What? You don't know either? You mean you're just assuming you know what happened?? Say it isn't so!! Innocent until proven guilty and all that be damned I guess.
Quote:Okay, so you explain how Freddie Gray ended up dead in the back of the police van, without any misconduct by police whatsoever. Go on. I'll be waiting. I also don't think I'm the one going out my my way to read it in a certain way.
I think you are actually. The prevailing mindset surrounding the death of Freddie Gray is that nobody knows what actually happened. That's why the death is under investigation. If there is any wrongdoing identified by the police, the expectation should be that it will be addressed and punishment will be levied accordingly. You and others here are big on declaring that someone is innocent until proven guilty, and rightfully so. Does that same expectation extend to the police officer(s) that you've already convicted here?
Quote:A lot.
It's not just mistaken identity. There's a lot of things including police misconduct and bad witnesses (including witnesses who lie) that lead to arrests. If the justice system were so perfect that it only (except in cases of mistaken identity) arrested the bad guys, then we wouldn't need to have innocent until proven guilty, the entire 5th amendment, the right to a fair trial, and a lawyer wouldn't have to be appointed for you if you couldn't afford one.
A lot? Are you trying to tell me police just out of boredom go around arresting people?
Yes there are mistakes made. There are even blatantly false accusations made that lead to an arrest. That is what the Justice System is for as you pointed out. Arguing, cursing, spitting at and assaulting the police will get you no where however. That is my point. Don't antagonize them and things won't escalate.
It's plausible the man was injured while fleeing the police on his bike, and then the police to their fault didn't take his injuries serious enough and without medical treatment the man died.
The only place I've seen the 80% severed is taking that quote from the families lawyer who for all we know is speaking out of his rear. There hasn't been an medical information released to the public yet, all this chaos over assumptions.
Quote:I'm curious about your attempts to twist this into a certain narrative here.
You've accused this poster of being gleeful about the death of another human being, and now you're saying this poster felt this guy deserved to die. Feel free to point out where he has celebrated the death or where he's said the death was deserved. Otherwise, your hyperbole really discredits your position because you're willing to misrepresent the truth.
There are two threads going on. It's very obvious where his stance his.
EDIT:
Though I will admit it is possible I am letting emotions get in the way of an internet conversation, I do think he feels this way based on they way he has approached the death.
Quote:I'm curious about your attempts to twist this into a certain narrative here.
You've accused this poster of being gleeful about the death of another human being, and now you're saying this poster felt this guy deserved to die. Feel free to point out where he has celebrated the death or where he's said the death was deserved. Otherwise, your hyperbole really discredits your position because you're willing to misrepresent the truth.
In Boudreaumw defense Jaguar Warrior did post the following:
You are damn straight I do. I don't care if it makes me a little person, because it is a logical choice. Life isn't happiness and rainbows, sunshine. There are some bad people out there. This guy had a long arrest record and DID have convictions. So what exactly did he provide for society? What did he do to benefit you, the state, or otherwise? Did he have a future? Did it look like he was heading down a productive path? He may have, but not now, not after following the path of crime most of his adult life. Statistically speaking, he was most likely going to end up in prison.
You help those who help themselves. I will sympathize for those who deserve it. Maybe your religion or political ideology tells you to value all life equally, and good for you. I see things differently.
While not necessarily a celebration he's saying clearly the guys death is deserved by his own actions and all life is not equal in value.
Just figured I'd point it out it's not in this thread.
Quote:While your logic is sound from a legal stand point it is wrong.
I posted the legal backing that fleeing, in and of itself, is not probable cause.
Suspicious behavior is probable cause enough to be questioned. The questioning lead to an arrest. This is sound police work. What happened next is open to an investigation. Stop pretending that Freddy Gray did not break the law in the first place.
Quote:I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, but since you apparently have all the facts, you tell me what exactly happened. What? You don't know either? You mean you're just assuming you know what happened?? Say it isn't so!! Innocent until proven guilty and all that be damned I guess.
So you can't explain how he ended up dead with absolutely no misconduct by police?
Apparently it's okay to call Freddie Gray a career criminal, and say his death 'saved the taxpayers a lot of money' and he deserves no sympathy, but it's not okay to say that there was police misconduct involved in the incident, and that if police had acted appropriately, Freddie Gray would probably still be alive. I'm not the one making accusations as to exactly what happened. What we DO know is that Freddie Gray didn't get medical attention for 45 minutes after asking for it. At the very least the police didn't call for medical help, and the police were negligent. You also apparently can't say that the police have acted improperly in many situations.
Quote:In Boudreaumw defense Jaguar Warrior did post the following:
You are damn straight I do. I don't care if it makes me a little person, because it is a logical choice. Life isn't happiness and rainbows, sunshine. There are some bad people out there. This guy had a long arrest record and DID have convictions. So what exactly did he provide for society? What did he do to benefit you, the state, or otherwise? Did he have a future? Did it look like he was heading down a productive path? He may have, but not now, not after following the path of crime most of his adult life. Statistically speaking, he was most likely going to end up in prison.
You help those who help themselves. I will sympathize for those who deserve it. Maybe your religion or political ideology tells you to value all life equally, and good for you. I see things differently.
While not necessarily a celebration he's saying clearly the guys death is deserved by his own actions and all life is not equal in value.
Just figured I'd point it out it's not in this thread.
To take that and come to the conclusion that someone is "gleeful" about the death of a human being is a reach.
I don't agree with his position that all life is not valued equally. I think there's potential for redemption for even the most vile criminals among us to some extent. The fact that this man died is a tragedy for those who knew him. Still, it doesn't justify what has transpired in Baltimore since his death.
Quote:To take that and come to the conclusion that someone is "gleeful" about the death of a human being is a reach.
I don't agree with his position that all life is not valued equally. I think there's potential for redemption for even the most vile criminals among us to some extent. The fact that this man died is a tragedy for those who knew him. Still, it doesn't justify what has transpired in Baltimore since his death.
Fair enough just figured I'd point out some of his post in the other thread. The conversation is odd going from one thread to another.