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Quote:Never said he there was anything wrong with it. Tax breaks are an incentive for job creation. When do we hold the companies to their promises?

 

Perhaps when the tax breaks expire?

Tax breaks would be more effective to give to people rather than corporations.


Come on do you honestly believe that there's millions of projects out there that will suddenly go ahead because of some after tax savings?

Quote:Tax breaks would be more effective to give to people rather than corporations.


Come on do you honestly believe that there's millions of projects out there that will suddenly go ahead because of some after tax savings?

 

To answer your question, no.

 

But what you are proposing would be to lower taxes for the general population right?  That's what conservatives always propose while the liberals always propose the opposite.  Lower taxes for the folks?  I never would have believed that a liberal would think that's a good idea...  even if said liberal is an "undocumented member" of this board.

Quote:Tax breaks would be more effective to give to people rather than corporations.


Come on do you honestly believe that there's millions of projects out there that will suddenly go ahead because of some after tax savings?

 

A tax code that can't be used for social engineering would be the best.

Quote:You're not bound by a CBA. You didn't agree not to do those things.


Of course, if your supervisors were organized you couldn't just fire them without due process and union representation. You should thank them for not being organized, and letting you fire them whenever you want.

I think that is the point.  Unions seem to me to not promote true team work.  A job needs doing and everyone chips in and get the job done.  Union mentality seems to me to be "not my job"  "talk to my steward"  

 

For example, last week I assisted facilities maintenance in trouble shooting an automatic door.  Not my job but I have expertise and experience that they do not.  To me it is the right thing to do.  Also a little bit of paying it forward.

Quote:I think that is the point.  Unions seem to me to not promote true team work.  A job needs doing and everyone chips in and get the job done.  Union mentality seems to me to be "not my job"  "talk to my steward"  

 

For example, last week I assisted facilities maintenance in trouble shooting an automatic door.  Not my job but I have expertise and experience that they do not.  To me it is the right thing to do.  Also a little bit of paying it forward.

 

It's just common sense.  Liberal and "union think" is that it's not their job and they are against their employer and only care about their job and benefits.  They don't care about the actual job or the goal of their employer, they only care about "what they get".  To them it's such a bad thing that someone took initiative to empty a full trash can because it "takes away" from somebody else's job.  They don't understand that a simple act like that makes everyone's job easier and makes everybody more productive.

 

I personally cringe when I hear somebody say "that's not my job", especially if it's a trivial task that takes just a couple of minutes of their time.  To me that's not a team player and would be one of the first people that I would let go should layoffs happen.  It's essentially veiled laziness.

Quote:To answer your question, no.


But what you are proposing would be to lower taxes for the general population right? That's what conservatives always propose while the liberals always propose the opposite. Lower taxes for the folks? I never would have believed that a liberal would think that's a good idea... even if said liberal is an "undocumented member" of this board.

I can see the argument certainly for lower income households not the rich though.


Decreasing the tax base by lowering tax on corporations doesn't appear to be a great job creator though.

Okay, but the situation Kodiac describes where management decides to eliminate jobs and 'combine' old jobs together happens all the time in non unionized settings. Lets talk about a setting I am intimately familiar with, hospitals.

 

Nurses, Nursing Assistants, and Respiratory therapist all work together and have some overlapping job functions. Management gives us the old 'teamwork' and pitch in and some of us take it seriously and try to help. Well one day a nursing assistant calls in sick. So we are short, but all the nurses and the remaining tech pitch in and have an unbelievably busy day, but get most things done. Management says 'hey, they got it done without that tech, they don't really need them.' So they cut that job.

 

Now the remaining tech and RN's end up with more work and heavier loads every day. Suddenly what was a one time event becomes the new norm. Now the remaining RN's and the couple techs that are left are getting wore out trying to compensate continually for extra load they were not supposed to have. So more Nurses start calling in cause they are exhausted, callbells don't get answered cause people are stretched too thin. And then units start having crazy turnover due to continuously low staffing. Management starts having meetings telling everyone that 'you can't pass a room with a light on, you need to do more teamwork.' 

 

But answering callbells, and grabbing stuff was the job of the tech they got rid of, so you tell them, and they say how they are 'working on it' and you just need to 'get through.' Now the nurses have to prioritize and decide whether getting somebody a drink is more important than giving antibiotics to a septic patient (easy choice of course, but you know what happens to patient satisfaction). The one remaining tech is doing vitals for the whole floor and can't answer any callbells. The secretary you had is also gone cause 'anyone can pick up a phone why would we pay someone for that,' but no one has time to answer phones anymore cause they have no support. RT only secondarily cover your floor anymore cause 'nurses can give breathing treatments too' so he needs to intubate an ICU pt he has on his other two floors, rather than giving a scheduled neb to your patient.

 

And suddenly your hospital has super low patient satisfaction, poor patient outcomes, and depending on the region (people in rural areas sue less) getting sued by angry family. Looks like teamwork didn't work too well with bad management. This is much more the norm than the abnormal in nonunion hospitals.

 

The argument that since employees might have some downtime if you have a designated person for non specialized jobs, so you shouldn't have anyone at all, is a fallacy. Non specialized jobs still need to be done, and if you have specialized people doing non specialized jobs then they aren't doing (haha) their job, that you are probably paying them more to do. That's bad management, and yet many corporations do it. Teamwork does not automatically lead to a good business if you have poor management. Even the jags last season showed us that. 

 

I am not pro union, but it is easy to see why they exist.

Quote:Okay, but the situation Kodiac describes where management decides to eliminate jobs and 'combine' old jobs together happens all the time in non unionized settings. Lets talk about a setting I am intimately familiar with, hospitals.


Nurses, Nursing Assistants, and Respiratory therapist all work together and have some overlapping job functions. Management gives us the old 'teamwork' and pitch in and some of us take it seriously and try to help. Well one day a nursing assistant calls in sick. So we are short, but all the nurses and the remaining tech pitch in and have an unbelievably busy day, but get most things done. Management says 'hey, they got it done without that tech, they don't really need them.' So they cut that job.


Now the remaining tech and RN's end up with more work and heavier loads every day. Suddenly what was a one time event becomes the new norm. Now the remaining RN's and the couple techs that are left are getting wore out trying to compensate continually for extra load they were not supposed to have. So more Nurses start calling in cause they are exhausted, callbells don't get answered cause people are stretched too thin. And then units start having crazy turnover due to continuously low staffing. Management starts having meetings telling everyone that 'you can't pass a room with a light on, you need to do more teamwork.'


But answering callbells, and grabbing stuff was the job of the tech they got rid of, so you tell them, and they say how they are 'working on it' and you just need to 'get through.' Now the nurses have to prioritize and decide whether getting somebody a drink is more important than giving antibiotics to a septic patient (easy choice of course, but you know what happens to patient satisfaction). The one remaining tech is doing vitals for the whole floor and can't answer any callbells. The secretary you had is also gone cause 'anyone can pick up a phone why would we pay someone for that,' but no one has time to answer phones anymore cause they have no support. RT only secondarily cover your floor anymore cause 'nurses can give breathing treatments too' so he needs to intubate an ICU pt he has on his other two floors, rather than giving a scheduled neb to your patient.


And suddenly your hospital has super low patient satisfaction, poor patient outcomes, and depending on the region (people in rural areas sue less) getting sued by angry family. Looks like teamwork didn't work too well with bad management. This is much more the norm than the abnormal in nonunion hospitals.


The argument that since employees might have some downtime if you have a designated person for non specialized jobs, so you shouldn't have anyone at all, is a fallacy. Non specialized jobs still need to be done, and if you have specialized people doing non specialized jobs then they aren't doing (haha) their job, that you are probably paying them more to do. That's bad management, and yet many corporations do it. Teamwork does not automatically lead to a good business if you have poor management. Even the jags last season showed us that.


I am not pro union, but it is easy to see why they exist.

Great post, HR86. Provides insight that everyone understands, even if they aren't in that field.


This comes back to why unions exist at all. Bad management. You could say that bad management is job security for unions.


Its easy to see how once you volunteer to do more, it seems like you keep getting asked to do more and more until you break. It shouldn't be that way. Each worker should have to give a fair day's work for a fair day's pay. If they don't pull their weight, they should be subject to the discipline process. If management isn't totally inept, it shouldn't be hard to provide the evidence needed to push discipline through, even in a union environment. People do get fired from union jobs.


I'll add that Lazy union workers do exist, just like lazy non-union workers who only have a job because their daddy golfs with the business owner on Sundays. A large majority of craft employees pull their weight, though.

Quote:It's not a matter of people "doing somebody else's job for them", it's common sense.  If a trash can is full and getting ready to overflow, do you just wait for it to overflow or do you do the simple task of emptying it while simultaneously doing something else (even if it's to take a break)?  Nobody is saying that this worker will all of the sudden have to sweep/mop floors, vacuum office spaces or clean the restrooms.  It's simply about identifying a problem and resolving it in an efficient way.  It makes everybody's job easier.

 

 

I never said that.  It's two different things.  I said that the idea of a "FOD crew" is pretty much a stupid idea no matter what you want to name it.  It's a specific job, not a general job such as "keeping trash and debris off the grounds".

 

Let me ask you this.  Specifically in the environment that we are talking about (an aviation flight line) what would the "FOD crew" do when there is no FOD on the line, taxi ways or runways?  How would you justify paying a "FOD crew" when the worker in the example that Dakota gave was perfectly capable of taking care of the problem with minimal effort and time?

ok lets just say you are a tech of some kind and you see some trash laying on the floor on your way to your work station where you need to analyze some data another department need asap...There is a crew of clean up people assigned to the company who empty the garbage and do general clean up...do you take the little bit of time to do what the clean up crew is getting paid to do and keep the department waiting or do you go to your work station and get busy and let the clean up crew do the job they are getting paid to do? 

Quote:ok lets just say you are a tech of some kind and you see some trash laying on the floor on your way to your work station where you need to analyze some data another department need asap...There is a crew of clean up people assigned to the company who empty the garbage and do general clean up...do you take the little bit of time to do what the clean up crew is getting paid to do and keep the department waiting or do you go to your work station and get busy and let the clean up crew do the job they are getting paid to do?

You pick up the trash. End of discussion.

Quote:ok lets just say you are a tech of some kind and you see some trash laying on the floor on your way to your work station where you need to analyze some data another department need asap...There is a crew of clean up people assigned to the company who empty the garbage and do general clean up...do you take the little bit of time to do what the clean up crew is getting paid to do and keep the department waiting or do you go to your work station and get busy and let the clean up crew do the job they are getting paid to do?

Trash, tools, or anything else laying on the floor where workers walk constitutes a tripping hazard, which creates an unsafe work environment (a safety issue). A safety issue is to be corrected by the first worker who finds it unless it is beyond that worker's ability to do so, in which case they immediately notify management or a safety team representative.


So basically, what Indy said.

Quote:ok lets just say you are a tech of some kind and you see some trash laying on the floor on your way to your work station where you need to analyze some data another department need asap...There is a crew of clean up people assigned to the company who empty the garbage and do general clean up...do you take the little bit of time to do what the clean up crew is getting paid to do and keep the department waiting or do you go to your work station and get busy and let the clean up crew do the job they are getting paid to do? 

I pick up the trash on my way and deposit it in the circular file when I arrive at the work station.

Quote:You pick up the trash. End of discussion.

 

WOW!  We agreed on something twice within a week!   :blink: