Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:A bumper would be FOD.


Everyone has a responsibility to eliminate FOD around aircraft. Airports, or maintenance facilities.


It's not likely a procedure that only allowed specific people to remove it would ever get approved by a regulatory agency.

I'm pretty sure there would be a FOD crew, rather than just leave it up to whichever individual feels like removing the FOD...FOD is a term I have not heard in a very long time thanks for the memory!

Quote:That's your experience with having a very unique and rare skill, which is certainly not the norm. Not trying to downplay your accomplishments (cause I don't know them), but anyone who was working in 80's and 90's has a huge advantage over people who started in the last 8-10 years especially. They came up in a more prosperous generation which had easier access to the tools and opportunities to develop more unique skills and ability. Sure we have some of those opportunities now, but they aren't nearly as good as they were. The internet isn't new anymore, Unemployment is nowhere near 3% on the E6 like it used to be. Schooling costs 4 to 8x as much as it used to 25 to 35 years ago. Wages have been stagnant for most of the decade. It is what it is.

 

Even in fields with specialization there is always a push to replace with cheaper options as soon as possible. In most fields the company is always trying to replace you with a cheaper option or outsource, or move. Engineering, manufacturing, even healthcare 'the recession proof' profession. They import Doctors and nurses for cheaper and give them substandard wages for 3 years using H1B program to drive down wages. And then they introduce newer less skilled, but 'close enough' providers to fill the gap (see midlevels replacing primary care Doctors). Globalization has killed opportunity the last 25 years.

 

This is where you are wrong, and my case could outline it.

 

Professionally in my "day job" I work on electronics and computer systems.  I got the training to develop those skills in the 80's and 90's mainly through the military.  Some of those skills I learned on my own in what would be considered "later years" when it comes to education in the 90's because of the internet.  I would argue that more information and resources are available now because of the internet.  As an example, it used to be that in order to find out how a certain chip or micro-processor works, you would have to get paper manuals either from the manufacturer or through other sources.  Now the information can be had with a simple search online.

 

Regarding my freelance work, it mainly deals with software.  I learned the skills needed for that type of work between the late 90's and early 2000's and I learned it all online.  It has changed a lot since then, but the fundamentals are the same.

 

My point is, there is more opportunity now than there was when I was young and growing up.  What is missing now is the desire to actually acquire the knowledge and the work that it takes to gain that knowledge and really understand it.  I've worked with EE grads that literally couldn't hook up a battery correctly.  They can answer "the correct memorized answer" on paper, but putting it to practical use is beyond their ability.  The same goes with CS grads.  They can write a "cool game" or application, but can't even identify or understand why it's buggy and potentially dangerous.

Quote:A bumper would be FOD.


Everyone has a responsibility to eliminate FOD around aircraft. Airports, or maintenance facilities.


It's not likely a procedure that only allowed specific people to remove it would ever get approved by a regulatory agency.

 

Wow!  We actually agree on something!  Mark the date and time.

 

Quote:I'm pretty sure there would be a FOD crew, rather than just leave it up to whichever individual feels like removing the FOD...FOD is a term I have not heard in a very long time thanks for the memory!

 

That's the perfect example of how unions destroy business and why companies look for other solutions.  A "FOD crew"?  Really?  Let me guess... now you're going to say that we should pay this "FOD crew" $15 per hour and if they join the union they will get a raise to $20 per hour.  

 

For those not familiar with the term, FOD is an acronym for Foreign Object Debris which in the aviation world would be anything that can injure or cause damage to either an aircraft or people.

Quote:Wow!  We actually agree on something!  Mark the date and time.

 

 

That's the perfect example of how unions destroy business and why companies look for other solutions.  A "FOD crew"?  Really?  Let me guess... now you're going to say that we should pay this "FOD crew" $15 per hour and if they join the union they will get a raise to $20 per hour.  

 

For those not familiar with the term, FOD is an acronym for Foreign Object Debris which in the aviation world would be anything that can injure or cause damage to either an aircraft or people.

I would guess the name for the crew would be something more like safety crew, or something similar which would already be in every airport Union or Non Union

Quote:I would guess the name for the crew would be something more like safety crew, or something similar which would already be in every airport Union or Non Union

 

So the answer for a "stupid job" (FOD crew) is to simply rename it, then it's alright?  Is it not more cost effective and efficient to tell all employees that work on the flight line that FOD is part of their job?  Because that's really the way that it is in the real world.  I know for a fact in Navy aviation that FOD is not only maintenance people's responsibility, but also aircrew and/or ship's crew.

 

In Dakota's example, the worker was just too lazy to do a simple task that would have taken him just a few minutes and very little effort.  Instead, the worker used the "it's not my job, and if you don't like it call my union steward" as justification.  The sad part of that example is that lazy piece of [BLEEP] can't get fired because the union will protect him and it ends up in lost productivity and ultimately lost dollars.

Quote:So the answer for a "stupid job" (FOD crew) is to simply rename it, then it's alright? Is it not more cost effective and efficient to tell all employees that work on the flight line that FOD is part of their job? Because that's really the way that it is in the real world. I know for a fact in Navy aviation that FOD is not only maintenance people's responsibility, but also aircrew and/or ship's crew.


In Dakota's example, the worker was just too lazy to do a simple task that would have taken him just a few minutes and very little effort. Instead, the worker used the "it's not my job, and if you don't like it call my union steward" as justification. The sad part of that example is that lazy piece of [BAD WORD REMOVED] can't get fired because the union will protect him and it ends up in lost productivity and ultimately lost dollars.

I don't believe for a second that it wasn't his job. I have audited many of FOD programs and they are almost always listed as everyone's responsibility.

Quote:Or you know... Wal-Mart buys all roads on the route to a local Target, and puts up ridiculous tolls to drive traffic to Wal-Mart instead.

If you want to really explore how private road would work I can do that with you.


Essentially we already have roads so the majority of revenue would be the state selling rights to roads that already exist. For example I start the Eric Road Company and the state puts up for sale all roads. I could purchase I-95 sections for a premium price and make revenue on selling advertising on my section of the road. In turn I'd be responsible for maintaining that road, if i didn't people would use, it would see less traffic and my advertisers would look for better sources of advertising. If I do a really bad job maintaining the road I'll go out of business and someone else will by my account. Same goes for local roads, really rural roads might not have enough traffic to generate advertising income to make a profit so perhaps id sell access to my road. If I charged to much for access my revenues would drop as my competition would offer alternative routes at better prices. In both scenarios I have invested interest in keeping drivers on my road and maintaining them so they keep using them.


Box retailers are not going to be interested nor able to purchase roads and maintane them it would be an entire different industry. Maybe walmart would build a road to their location and maintaine it, so what that saves the tax payer millions. Heck why would it be do horrible if am entrapanure built a road and then sold access to businesses to drive revenue, the consumer wins all day. I built a great road that everyone want to drive on, I charge big box company so much month to build on access lot off my great road. I charge big box competition to advertise on my road and the tax payers have an amazing road with no cost to the taxpayer. The guy in Montana is paying nothing for my road in florida.

Why not just get the public sector to sell all this advertising and keep the money in the tax payers pockets? Saying that isn't having a crap load of advertising a safety concern?

Once people start doing somebody else's job for them, whether it is emptying bins or whatever it's a slippery slope for that guys role becoming redundant you being asked to do more work and a man with a family now unemployed.

Quote:2 minutes of one's time to clear a safety hazard should be EVERYONE'S job at the airlines. Your response is the perfect example of how unions cost everyone. They hurt the companies they represent. They hurt the public in terms of higher costs.

 

That 2 minutes that that guy could have spent would have saved a lot of people a lot of money. The airline didn't pay for that. The public did in terms of higher fares to recoup the loss.

 

Good post, Dakota.

 

Not sure about that union, but in our union safety IS everyone's job.  Anyone has the right to correct an unsafe condition, unless it is beyond their ability to reasonably do so (in which case they contact a supervisor and get them to handle fixing the issue).  It's actually the only time where craft jurisdiction doesn't mean squat.

Quote:So the answer for a "stupid job" (FOD crew) is to simply rename it, then it's alright?  Is it not more cost effective and efficient to tell all employees that work on the flight line that FOD is part of their job?  Because that's really the way that it is in the real world.  I know for a fact in Navy aviation that FOD is not only maintenance people's responsibility, but also aircrew and/or ship's crew.

 

In Dakota's example, the worker was just too lazy to do a simple task that would have taken him just a few minutes and very little effort.  Instead, the worker used the "it's not my job, and if you don't like it call my union steward" as justification.  The sad part of that example is that lazy piece of [BAD WORD REMOVED] can't get fired because the union will protect him and it ends up in lost productivity and ultimately lost dollars.

so the people who have the job of keeping trash and debris off the grounds is a stupid job? 

Quote:That happens far too often in union shops.  Here's another example that happened to my son.

 

He was only on the job for a short period of time.  He's a smoker, and the smoking area at that job site happened to be near the dumpsters.  He noticed that a trash can near his work station  was full, so he pulled the full trash bag out and replaced it with a new one.  While he was doing so, one of his co-workers asked him what he was doing.  He replied that he was going to take a smoke break and empty the full trashcan at the same time since the dumpsters were near the smoking area.  The worker replied that they "had people for that" and that it "wasn't his job".  My son shrugged it off and took the trash out anyway.  He got reprimanded for it.  When he told me about it I explained to him that that's the way union shops work.

 

You gave your son an accurate explanation.

 

I see this frequently at work, although I admit that it took some getting used to when I first got hired.  Unless it's safety-related, the crafts will fiercely guard their work.  In their mind, losing work in any capacity can lead to losing positions (jobs).  It doesn't matter if they are cross-craft violations or supervisors performing bargaining unit work.  If the stewards are doing their jobs, they will record these infractions and seek remedies through the grievance process.

 

Usually, newer supervisors learn very quickly to instruct someone to do certain work instead of just doing it themselves, no matter how little the work is.  Of course, there are those who never learn and are a source of non-stop grievance settlements.

 

I'll give you an example that happened in a city branch.

 

They had a lazy steward (who was a poor worker to begin with) who never filed any grievances when branch management started doing his craft's work.  There were 7 clerks in that branch.  After one clerk retired, management opted not to fill the position because they were getting the work done by chipping in.

 

Down to 6 clerks.

 

Some carriers were having undertime (finishing their routes early) and branch management instructed them to do clerk work.  This is a no-no, as management is supposed to review their carrier staffing and make cuts to the carrier craft if they have too many carrier hours.  However, the carrier steward was a "strong" steward and a constant thorn in management's side and they did not want to approach him about the issue, so they didn't.  This was all grievable, but the clerk steward did nothing.  Guess what?  One clerk position got abolished, and a clerk (single mother) was forced to leave the station and go work at the plant (on a totally different shift with different days off, screwing with her ability to coordinate transportation to daycare for her child).  Management didn't shed a tear over that.

 

Down to 5 clerks.

 

This went on for months and management and carriers did more and more clerk work and eventually 2 more clerk bids were abolished.

 

Down to 3 clerks.

 

In the meantime, those 3 clerks that were left were being worked ragged and getting stressed out.  Management was coming down on them for failure to get the work done on time.  Extra monitors were brought in to watch them work and "evaluate the process" over a few weeks.  When investigations for discipline were initiated by management, the president of the local for the clerks finally got involved and took personal control of the situation.  The branch steward was removed as a steward, management was interviewed and admitted authorizing cross-craft work, performing work themselves, and trying to run a station with 3/7 of the authorized clerk craft positions.

 

The remedy finally came down.  Management was reprimanded and the 3 abolished bids were reinstated with the original clerks getting their positions back.  They were paid out-of-schedule pay (basically an additional 1/2 base pay) for every hour they worked since their bids were abolished.  The reverted bid (from the retiree) was reposted, with the winner of that bid getting out of schedule pay dating back to the time the bid was reverted.

 

This colossal waste of money and time, coupled with the negative impact on the workers could have all been avoided if management had simply abided by the CBA.

Quote:Usually, newer supervisors learn very quickly to instruct someone to do certain work instead of just doing it themselves, no matter how little the work is.  

 

And this is why us real-world people just shake our heads at this behavior, because I fire Supervisors for NOT resolving a problem they see even if it means he/she has to do it himself. And our customers expect nothing less. That's what the job is for, to serve the customer not to protect the work. 

Quote:And this is why us real-world people just shake our heads at this behavior, because I fire Supervisors for NOT resolving a problem they see even if it means he/she has to do it himself. And our customers expect nothing less. That's what the job is for, to serve the customer not to protect the work.

You're not bound by a CBA. You didn't agree not to do those things.


Of course, if your supervisors were organized you couldn't just fire them without due process and union representation. You should thank them for not being organized, and letting you fire them whenever you want.

Quote:You're not bound by a CBA. You didn't agree not to do those things.


Of course, if your supervisors were organized you couldn't just fire them without due process and union representation. You should thank them for not being organized, and letting you fire them whenever you want.

 

And that's the crux of the matter, my business doesn't exist to keep people employed, it exists to provide an excellent product to the customer. Thank deity we aren't bound by a contract that protects lazy workers and shoddy work.

Quote:Once people start doing somebody else's job for them, whether it is emptying bins or whatever it's a slippery slope for that guys role becoming redundant you being asked to do more work and a man with a family now unemployed.

 

It's not a matter of people "doing somebody else's job for them", it's common sense.  If a trash can is full and getting ready to overflow, do you just wait for it to overflow or do you do the simple task of emptying it while simultaneously doing something else (even if it's to take a break)?  Nobody is saying that this worker will all of the sudden have to sweep/mop floors, vacuum office spaces or clean the restrooms.  It's simply about identifying a problem and resolving it in an efficient way.  It makes everybody's job easier.

 

Quote:so the people who have the job of keeping trash and debris off the grounds is a stupid job? 

 

I never said that.  It's two different things.  I said that the idea of a "FOD crew" is pretty much a stupid idea no matter what you want to name it.  It's a specific job, not a general job such as "keeping trash and debris off the grounds".

 

Let me ask you this.  Specifically in the environment that we are talking about (an aviation flight line) what would the "FOD crew" do when there is no FOD on the line, taxi ways or runways?  How would you justify paying a "FOD crew" when the worker in the example that Dakota gave was perfectly capable of taking care of the problem with minimal effort and time?

Quote:And this is why us real-world people just shake our heads at this behavior, because I fire Supervisors for NOT resolving a problem they see even if it means he/she has to do it himself. And our customers expect nothing less. That's what the job is for, to serve the customer not to protect the work. 

 

This is one thing that union people don't seem to understand.  For that matter liberals don't seem to understand that.  A company isn't in business to "create jobs", a company is in business to make money while serving their customers, no matter who the "customer" might be.

Quote:This is one thing that union people don't seem to understand. For that matter liberals don't seem to understand that. A company isn't in business to "create jobs", a company is in business to make money while serving their customers, no matter who the "customer" might be.

And yet companies ask for tax breaks on the premise that they will create X amount of jobs.

Quote:And yet companies ask for tax breaks on the premise that they will create X amount of jobs.

 

So what's wrong with that?  Lower tax rates actually motivate companies to expand and create jobs.  It's an indication that startups are stymied by the high taxes that it would cost them in order to start a business.

 

Here's something to ponder.  What creates more revenue?  Taxing a business entity more, or the taxes generated by employing people?  Which is more beneficial?

Quote:So what's wrong with that? Lower tax rates actually motivate companies to expand and create jobs. It's an indication that startups are stymied by the high taxes that it would cost them in order to start a business.


Here's something to ponder. What creates more revenue? Taxing a business entity more, or the taxes generated by employing people? Which is more beneficial?

Never said he there was anything wrong with it. Tax breaks are an incentive for job creation. When do we hold the companies to their promises?