Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Why did they hire Doug Marrone and Nathaniel Hackett? I thought it was no more ex-Cuses?

 

3/10.

 It may take two to three additional years to fully recover from all of the GS drafts! One player left from al his draft classes.....what a record for failure!

It's 3 years in. It's about WINS and LOSSES at this point.


Some people seem to struggle with the concept of excuses. Excuses are ANY narrative that is used to explain a negative result. You've got some great, long, cherry picking statistical argument as to why we are doing it the right way/better than our record, well congrats, it's an excuse.


6 wins this season (and that basically mean going 3-5 twice, which itself is plain crap) or fire EVERYBODY.

Quote:It's 3 years in. It's about WINS and LOSSES at this point.


Some people seem to struggle with the concept of excuses. Excuses are ANY narrative that is used to explain a negative result. You've got some great, long, cherry picking statistical argument as to why we are doing it the right way/better than our record, well congrats, it's an excuse.


6 wins this season (and that basically mean going 3-5 twice, which itself is plain crap) or fire EVERYBODY.

 

In year 3 of a rebuild wins and losses are much, much more meaningful and met with a higher level of expectation.  Definitely. 

 

Yet - you are grossly oversimplifying the "reason vs. excuse" conundrum.  An "excuse" in it's noun form - is traditionally the term applied to a "reason" given for an unacceptable outcome that lacks validity or doesn't meet some quantitative value.  While other "reasons" that do hold up to such measures are not labeled as "excuses." 

 

Your "any narrative" definition is overly simple and just not true in the real world.  Nonetheless - it's all semantics and it really doesn't matter to the crux of the debate at hand. 

 

Some will "excuse" the poor win/loss record as a byproduct of a patient draft-based rebuild, and some will not.  I personally think there have been valid reasons to forgive many of  (not all of) the losses in the past two seasons, but the validity of those reasons is quickly expiring as more talent is acquired and maturing.  The burden on the coaching staff to win a significant number of games this season is real.  The actual number of wins required for fans to have faith in the staff moving forward is entirely subjective. 

Quote:In year 3 of a rebuild wins and losses are much, much more meaningful and met with a higher level of expectation. Definitely.


Yet - you are grossly oversimplifying the "reason vs. excuse" conundrum. An "excuse" in it's noun form - is traditionally the term applied to a "reason" given for an unacceptable outcome that lacks validity or doesn't meet some quantitative value. While other "reasons" that do hold up to such measures are not labeled as "excuses."


Your "any narrative" definition is overly simple and just not true in the real world. Nonetheless - it's all semantics and it really doesn't matter to the crux of the debate at hand.


Some will "excuse" the poor win/loss record as a byproduct of a patient draft-based rebuild, and some will not. I personally think there have been valid reasons to forgive many of (not all of) the losses in the past two seasons, but the validity of those reasons is quickly expiring as more talent is acquired and maturing. The burden on the coaching staff to win a significant number of games this season is real. The actual number of wins required for fans to have faith in the staff moving forward is entirely subjective.

Im curious what are your reasons for forgiving some or even all of the losses?Some of our losses last year were poor coaching decisions..Like the Eagles,Raven,and Steelers game.This is a mans game, i don't forgive no losses!

Quote:I would tend to believe the people behind the roster blowup have a much better idea of how to run a football team than you do...There was such a lack of talent they had to gut the roster...I'm certain the men who have worked in the NFL industry all their lives are much more savvy in these matters than you

Don't get me wrong about this 'wrong_box', I happen to agree with the crux of your point; however I must point out that 'Gene Smith' would qualify as one of those who have more or less 'worked in the NFL industry all their lives' and was initially hailed as one with more 'savvy' than most. So while I do 'generally' agree that it would seem rational to think that people who've been in football professionally are better qualified to make good decisions, I would also say you should remember this is a generality, not an absolute. One need look no further than our own Gene Smith and what he wrought to see this. The 'professional' moniker doesn't automatically mean that you're getting a superior product; it just means that someone is getting paid for what they do. In a free inter-prize system, a 'pro' who doesn't do good work usually doesn't stay in business long.

 

Remember, amateurs built the ark... professionals built the Titanic. 

Quote:Im curious what are your reasons for forgiving some or even all of the losses?Some of our losses last year were poor coaching decisions..Like the Eagles,Raven,and Steelers game.This is a mans game, i don't forgive no losses!

 

Does anyone know exactly what this sentence means as typed?

Quote:Does anyone know exactly what this sentence means as typed?

 

He's special.

Quote:Does anyone know exactly what this sentence means as typed?

In other words i dont give out excuses like some.

Quote:In other words i dont give out excuses like some.

You just made an excuse for your poor grammar. 

Quote:You just made an excuse for your poor grammar.

Really? Lol you talking about grammar? Because you cant comprehend it? kick rocks!!Any time you guys cant prove a point, you attack peoples grammar and spelling to try and validate your point.How about proving a point without studying peoples grammar, or seeing if they spelled a word wrong.But you cant do that!!Did you understand that grammar? Was it spelled right for you buddy?

Quote:Im curious what are your reasons for forgiving some or even all of the losses?Some of our losses last year were poor coaching decisions..Like the Eagles,Raven,and Steelers game.This is a mans game, i don't forgive no losses!

 

Year one - a few were forgivable due to the roster purge and large, large number of "seat-fillers" taking up roster spots.  Scrap heap waiver wire guys and such that ideally have a hard time even seeing the field on special teams in year three.  Many of them are gone now -- which is telling. 

 

Year two it got tougher to forgive losses as some talent was acquired on defense, but even with a number of good showings by that unit, their production wasn't sustainable because they:

 - got no help from the offense

- got very little help from the FS position and young secondary

- had a rotating cast of back-ups at LB

 

Still you have to lay blame primarily at the offense's feet. If they could have mananged 20+ points more often they'd have won 3 or 4 more games. However - how much is too much to ask of 4, 5 and sometimes 6 rookies starting in the NFL? We found out.  

Then you must decide whether you blame Caldwell for fielding so many rookies?  Sure. At least some.  There were three vets that ended up sucking so bad or getting injured that the team had too much youth on the field. 

The only reason I forgive that (partially) is that I happen to really love the idea of building through the draft and saving the $$ for re-signing the youth that performs well and adding a few vets to fill in the ranks.  That's what Dave is doing and this year - I think it will produce about 7 wins with good momentum moving forward. 

 

I totally understand why many folks don't have the patience to wait around so long for a +.500 season. I do. I don't blame them (or you) for feeling that way.  I just like the concept of doing it right even if it takes longer. Gene left this roster in such a horrible place that a patch-job facelift in free agency wasn't gonna' do anything but have the team scraping around the .500 mark and then falling to waste again in a couple years. Starting over with an assembly of young drafted talent was the way to go, IMO.  Sucks to wait for results, but thankfully, I think we'll start to see them soon. 

 

Is it possible that Dave made too many bad choices? Yes. Is it possible that Gus wasn't the right hire for such a difficult re-build? Yes. 

But I'm giving them this year to show me the answers to those questions.  

Quote:In other words i dont give out excuses like some.

 

Well that's good because I really don't want to hear any more excuses.

 

It's time for better results/improvement when it comes to the Jaguars.

 

If this coaching staff can do that, great, if not, well then a decision will have to be made to find one that can.

Quote:In other words i dont give out excuses like some.

And what you define as "excuses" are nothing more than facts.  Unfortunately, facts confuse you, so you have to label them excuses.

 

Nobody is making excuses here.  They're simply pointing out WHY the team has struggled as they undertake this build process.  Anyone who labels facts as excuses simply isn't capable of comprehending what's gone on the past 2 years in any meaningful way.  In other words, low football IQ. 

Quote:Year one - a few were forgivable due to the roster purge and large, large number of "seat-fillers" taking up roster spots.  Scrap heap waiver wire guys and such that ideally have a hard time even seeing the field on special teams in year three.  Many of them are gone now -- which is telling. 

 

Year two it got tougher to forgive losses as some talent was acquired on defense, but even with a number of good showings by that unit, their production wasn't sustainable because they:

 - got no help from the offense

- got very little help from the FS position and young secondary

- had a rotating cast of back-ups at LB

 

Still you have to lay blame primarily at the offense's feet. If they could have mananged 20+ points more often they'd have won 3 or 4 more games. However - how much is too much to ask of 4, 5 and sometimes 6 rookies starting in the NFL? We found out.  

Then you must decide whether you blame Caldwell for fielding so many rookies?  Sure. At least some.  There were three vets that ended up sucking so bad or getting injured that the team had too much youth on the field. 

The only reason I forgive that (partially) is that I happen to really love the idea of building through the draft and saving the $$ for re-signing the youth that performs well and adding a few vets to fill in the ranks.  That's what Dave is doing and this year - I think it will produce about 7 wins with good momentum moving forward. 

 

I totally understand why many folks don't have the patience to wait around so long for a +.500 season. I do. I don't blame them (or you) for feeling that way.  I just like the concept of doing it right even if it takes longer. Gene left this roster in such a horrible place that a patch-job facelift in free agency wasn't gonna' do anything but have the team scraping around the .500 mark and then falling to waste again in a couple years. Starting over with an assembly of young drafted talent was the way to go, IMO.  Sucks to wait for results, but thankfully, I think we'll start to see them soon. 

 

Is it possible that Dave made too many bad choices? Yes. Is it possible that Gus wasn't the right hire for such a difficult re-build? Yes. 

But I'm giving them this year to show me the answers to those questions.  

 

One thing that I can't help coming back to is just how bad that 2013 Draft class was in comparison to other classes. While the players from that class are starters, they can be upgraded it would seem to me. This, more than anything, hurt the roster to the point that it was just a bleak landscape. When you look at the 2015 Offense, it essentially spent the entire season trying to get it's feet underneath it due to the fact that very few players were familiar with an NFL playing field. I really cannot think of another team that had to go through what that Offense did.

 

This situation was compounded by the point above where there really wasn't a lot of talent on the Offensive side of the ball available in 2013. So not only did you have to cut loose the dead weight - and my oh my, did Dave swing a heavy axe with those cuts - but you didn't have too many options to come in and fill the gaps.

 

One thing that I will staunchly adhere to is that you cannot expect lesser talent to achieve what greater talent can. It may overachieve a bit, but greater talent is what wins games; I'm convinced of that. Now when you add on the fact that it was hard to come by upper level talent for the first two years of the BradWell regime... I think the results speak for themselves.

Quote:One thing that I can't help coming back to is just how bad that 2013 Draft class was in comparison to other classes. While the players from that class are starters, they can be upgraded it would seem to me. This, more than anything, hurt the roster to the point that it was just a bleak landscape. When you look at the 2015 Offense, it essentially spent the entire season trying to get it's feet underneath it due to the fact that very few players were familiar with an NFL playing field. I really cannot think of another team that had to go through what that Offense did.

 

This situation was compounded by the point above where there really wasn't a lot of talent on the Offensive side of the ball available in 2013. So not only did you have to cut loose the dead weight - and my oh my, did Dave swing a heavy axe with those cuts - but you didn't have too many options to come in and fill the gaps.

 

One thing that I will staunchly adhere to is that you cannot expect lesser talent to achieve what greater talent can. It may overachieve a bit, but greater talent is what wins games; I'm convinced of that. Now when you add on the fact that it was hard to come by upper level talent for the first two years of the BradWell regime... I think the results speak for themselves.

Wait a second.......2013 a bad draft class? You got Cyprien, Gratz, McCray, Robinson and Josh Evans. All of whom have been contributors to this team. You realize that you just cant count on rookies to be crazy impact players their first year right? And Cyprien had an awesome 1st year, tailed off his second season but probably more due to the fact he was playing out of position. You got Dwayne Gratz, a solid corner for this team. He may not be a shutdown corner, but at the very least, we got a number 2 or a nickel. McCray is REALLY GOOD. Did you watch him play last year? Think Caldwell found a gem their in the 7th. Denard Robinson accumulated a total of 700 plus yards of offense last year as a scat back, pretty good for an undersized QB convert we found in the 5th if you ask me. Yes, Joekel has looked bad and he's got a big year to prove, yes Ace Sanders did not pan out, we have not too much of an idea on Jeremy Harris. And yes, all the rookies were not super star studs, but i think thats a pretty solid class he found if you ask me. We found at the very least, contributors to the football team. 

 

Have you seen any Gene Smith draft class from 2009-2012? I think we have 1 remaining player. Say what you want about Caldwell, but the guy knows how to find talent, especially late. I mean.....Allen Hurns????

Quote:Wait a second.......2013 a bad draft class? You got Cyprien, Gratz, McCray, Robinson and Josh Evans. All of whom have been contributors to this team. You realize that you just cant count on rookies to be crazy impact players their first year right? And Cyprien had an awesome 1st year, tailed off his second season but probably more due to the fact he was playing out of position. You got Dwayne Gratz, a solid corner for this team. He may not be a shutdown corner, but at the very least, we got a number 2 or a nickel. McCray is REALLY GOOD. Did you watch him play last year? Think Caldwell found a gem their in the 7th. Denard Robinson accumulated a total of 700 plus yards of offense last year as a scat back, pretty good for an undersized QB convert we found in the 5th if you ask me. Yes, Joekel has looked bad and he's got a big year to prove, yes Ace Sanders did not pan out, we have not too much of an idea on Jeremy Harris. And yes, all the rookies were not super star studs, but i think thats a pretty solid class he found if you ask me. We found at the very least, contributors to the football team. 

 

Have you seen any Gene Smith draft class from 2009-2012? I think we have 1 remaining player. Say what you want about Caldwell, but the guy knows how to find talent, especially late. I mean.....Allen Hurns????

 

Ease off the throttle a little bit man, I meant the overall class from 2013 in regards to the total talent pool available to all 32 organizations.

 

Yes, the BradWell Trust did get some contributors from that class and a few of them look to have very bright futures. But when you view it from the strict scope / perspective of the record for 2014 - 2015, you can see how that draft class could not support Offensive production as much as other classes have. Yes, Robinson did turn in a nice season last year but it also took him a while to get up to speed to the NFL game. And as you stated, he was a Fifth Round project. The same can be said for a few other players; they are contributors yes, but they have a ways to go until they can be considered Top Level talent in the NFL.

Quote:Wait a second.......2013 a bad draft class? 

Not a bad draft class at all. IMO. But in year two it was very disappointing. 

 

Gratz fell off a cliff and got benched.  Twice. 

 

Sanders got suspended and then played far worse than his rookie performance as a PR. 

 

Joeckel was coming off injury and got beat often. 

 

Cyprien tried to do too much and found himself out of position to make plays frequently when he should have been playing with more discipline after a year as a starter under his belt. 

 

Evans was a complete joke on a very large number of plays and easily gave up 4 or 5  busted coverage TDs singlehandedly. 

 

D Robinson and McCray were the only shining lights last season from that draft.  But I expect Joeckel and Cyprien to rebound this season.

 Gratz might be strictly "depth" moving forward.

In Comparrison to 2013, here is 2012 and 2011 draft classes 

 

2012

 

1st- Justin Blackmon ( great player, may never get to see him again because of drugs/alcohol)

 

2nd- Andre Branch (not a very productive player, how much longer will he be around?)

 

3rd- Bryan Anger ( was a punter really the best player in this draft?)

 

5th- Brandon Marshall ( no longer on team)

 

6th- Mike Harris ( no longer on the team)

 

7th- Jeris Pendleton ( no longer on the team)

 

Still recovering from the Blaine Gabbert trade....Gene gives us another ace in the hole class

 

2011

 

1st- Blain Gabbert ( LOL)

 

3rd- Will Rackley ( LOL)

 

4th- Cecil Shorts ( good player, no longer on the team, injury prone)

 

4th Chris Prosinski ( i just whiffed reading his name) 

 

5th- Rod Isaac ( remember him? yea he was cut right after we drafted him) 

 

Gene smith traded all of our picks for Blaine Gabbert that year....what a class that was. 

 

Ill take it a step farther 

 

2010

 

1st- Tyson Alualu ( solid player way overdrafted made us look like idiots)

 

3rd- D'Anthony Smith ( everyones favorite workout/camp hero, no longer on the team)

 

5th- Larry Hart ( no longer in the league 

 

5th- Austin Lane ( another fan over hyped player, no longer on the team)

 

6th- Deji Karim ( no longer on the team)

 

7th- Scotty Mcgee ( did he really draft a guy just for special teams?)

 

Moral of the story, 2013's draft class is not so bad when you actually look at what we are getting out of them compared to the past 3 years of drafting. 

Quote:Ease off the throttle a little bit man, I meant the overall class from 2013 in regards to the total talent pool available to all 32 organizations.

 

Yes, the BradWell Trust did get some contributors from that class and a few of them look to have very bright futures. But when you view it from the strict scope / perspective of the record for 2014 - 2015, you can see how that draft class could not support Offensive production as much as other classes have. Yes, Robinson did turn in a nice season last year but it also took him a while to get up to speed to the NFL game. And as you stated, he was a Fifth Round project. The same can be said for a few other players; they are contributors yes, but they have a ways to go until they can be considered Top Level talent in the NFL.

We. Gutted. The. Roster. Did  you expect the rookies to carry us to the super bowl? Yes, we sucked. Yes, not all the rookies panned out, but we got some solid contributors and with the team getting better, we shall see where it takes us.