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Quote:In Comparrison to 2013, here is 2012 and 2011 draft classes
2012
1st- Justin Blackmon ( great player, may never get to see him again because of drugs/alcohol)
2nd- Andre Branch (not a very productive player, how much longer will he be around?)
3rd- Bryan Anger ( was a punter really the best player in this draft?)
5th- Brandon Marshall ( no longer on team)
6th- Mike Harris ( no longer on the team)
7th- Jeris Pendleton ( no longer on the team)
Still recovering from the Blaine Gabbert trade....Gene gives us another ace in the hole class
2011
1st- Blain Gabbert ( LOL)
3rd- Will Rackley ( LOL)
4th- Cecil Shorts ( good player, no longer on the team, injury prone)
4th Chris Prosinski ( i just whiffed reading his name)
5th- Rod Isaac ( remember him? yea he was cut right after we drafted him)
Gene smith traded all of our picks for Blaine Gabbert that year....what a class that was.
Ill take it a step farther
2010
1st- Tyson Alualu ( solid player way overdrafted made us look like idiots)
3rd- D'Anthony Smith ( everyones favorite workout/camp hero, no longer on the team)
5th- Larry Hart ( no longer in the league
5th- Austin Lane ( another fan over hyped player, no longer on the team)
6th- Deji Karim ( no longer on the team)
7th- Scotty Mcgee ( did he really draft a guy just for special teams?)
Moral of the story, 2013's draft class is not so bad when you actually look at what we are getting out of them compared to the past 3 years of drafting.
We. Gutted. The. Roster. Did you expect the rookies to carry us to the super bowl? Yes, we sucked. Yes, not all the rookies panned out, but we got some solid contributors and with the team getting better, we shall see where it takes us.
Fine.
Yes.
Correct.
But you are missing my point when it comes to the
scope that I was speaking to. Gene Smith's draft classes are/were atrocious. There is really no second guessing that. But I'm not talking about who Jacksonville selected in comparison to their earlier classes. I'm talking about the total talent pool that was available in the draft. Are there a few shining stars there? Yes, I think so, and some of them are on this roster. But overall, from the way I am looking at it, the
entire draft class was weak when compared with other classes.
Yes, the roster was gutted and no I did not expect an Offense that started five or more rookies to be all that effective. I
promise you we are on the same page here. All I am saying is that the hand that was available to BradWell was not that strong in being able to help the team in the 2014 and 2015 seasons. Nor did I expect them to be able to assist all that much.
Would we have sucked a little less if there was better talent to be had in 2013? Sure! Most likely not to a Playoff caliber level, but to at least be a bit more competitive. But it's simply foam in the wake at this point. The roster is what it is, and the team needs to do whatever it can to put the roster in a position to begin winning more games.
Quote:Fine.
Yes.
Correct.
But you are missing my point when it comes to the scope that I was speaking to. Gene Smith's draft classes are/were atrocious. There is really no second guessing that. But I'm not talking about who Jacksonville selected in comparison to there earlier classes. I'm talking about the total talent pool that was available in the draft. Are there a few shining stars there? Yes, I think so, and some of them are on this roster. But overall, from the way I am looking at it, the entire draft class was weak when compared with other classes.
I can agree with that. 2013 was not a very strong class, but that even furthers my point in that Caldwell was able to find some solid players even in a weak draft class. McCray, Robinson, Cyprien.
Quote:I can agree with that. 2013 was not a very strong class, but that even furthers my point in that Caldwell was able to find some solid players even in a weak draft class. McCray, Robinson, Cyprien.
Indeed he was, but a project RB, a SS who struggles for two seasons, and a Corner with limited playing time aren't going to swing games in your favor in their first two seasons. Did Dave do very good with what he had available? I think so. It's just the luck of the draw that he had to start off building a roster with such a bare cupboard.
Despite the debate, which should be welcomed on a team message board, it sounds like we all agree that going into 2015, the Jags have to WIN more games.
I expect 6 wins. Y'all?
What I won't be interested in is coming short of that and hearing excuses, reasons or narratives about how its better than the record says. Each week is a zero sum game. One team wins. One loses. They gotta get 6 wins in 2015.
Quote:Year one - a few were forgivable due to the roster purge and large, large number of "seat-fillers" taking up roster spots. Scrap heap waiver wire guys and such that ideally have a hard time even seeing the field on special teams in year three. Many of them are gone now -- which is telling.
Year two it got tougher to forgive losses as some talent was acquired on defense, but even with a number of good showings by that unit, their production wasn't sustainable because they:
- got no help from the offense
- got very little help from the FS position and young secondary
- had a rotating cast of back-ups at LB
Still you have to lay blame primarily at the offense's feet. If they could have mananged 20+ points more often they'd have won 3 or 4 more games. However - how much is too much to ask of 4, 5 and sometimes 6 rookies starting in the NFL? We found out.
Then you must decide whether you blame Caldwell for fielding so many rookies? Sure. At least some. There were three vets that ended up sucking so bad or getting injured that the team had too much youth on the field.
The only reason I forgive that (partially) is that I happen to really love the idea of building through the draft and saving the $$ for re-signing the youth that performs well and adding a few vets to fill in the ranks. That's what Dave is doing and this year - I think it will produce about 7 wins with good momentum moving forward.
I totally understand why many folks don't have the patience to wait around so long for a +.500 season. I do. I don't blame them (or you) for feeling that way. I just like the concept of doing it right even if it takes longer. Gene left this roster in such a horrible place that a patch-job facelift in free agency wasn't gonna' do anything but have the team scraping around the .500 mark and then falling to waste again in a couple years. Starting over with an assembly of young drafted talent was the way to go, IMO. Sucks to wait for results, but thankfully, I think we'll start to see them soon.
Is it possible that Dave made too many bad choices? Yes. Is it possible that Gus wasn't the right hire for such a difficult re-build? Yes.
But I'm giving them this year to show me the answers to those questions.
Ok i can understand your viewpoint! The question that remains is what if we stink this year?? And thanks for elaborating your view!
Quote:Ok i can understand your viewpoint! The question that remains is what if we stink this year?? And thanks for elaborating your view!
Throw a message board hissy fit?
Quote:And what you define as "excuses" are nothing more than facts. Unfortunately, facts confuse you, so you have to label them excuses.
Nobody is making excuses here. They're simply pointing out WHY the team has struggled as they undertake this build process. Anyone who labels facts as excuses simply isn't capable of comprehending what's gone on the past 2 years in any meaningful way. In other words, low football IQ.
Ok FBT!! I know all the "facts" or "excuses" to why we sucked the last few years!However you wanna word it,in speaking of this year and this year only what will be the fact or excuse if we have another losing season? And you don't always have to try and belittle someone who shares a different view then you..We all humans and have our own opinions!
Quote:Indeed he was, but a project RB, a SS who struggles for two seasons, and a Corner with limited playing time aren't going to swing games in your favor in their first two seasons. Did Dave do very good with what he had available? I think so. It's just the luck of the draw that he had to start off building a roster with such a bare cupboard.
Cyprien was very good his rookie year, he tailed off his second season. He was trying to do too much, hopefully, with better FS play, he gets back on par with what he gave us his rookie year. A project running back who managed to accumulate 700 plus yards of offense last year. For a project RB/QB convert, thats pretty good if you ask me. Denard may be a better backup/scatback/ 3rd down player who you can move around on the offense, but i think he's got a solid career ahead of him. McCray started a lot of games last year and they kept him in because of how well he played. We found a starter in the 7th round, McCray will be here for a while.
Quote:I expect 6 wins. Y'all?
<b>7</b>
Quote:We all humans and have our own opinions!
Contrary to popular belief, not all opinions are of equal quality. And this applies regardless of whether the opinion is one that agrees with your own or not.
You seem to have a faulty assumption that the current staff are in some way 'out of excuses'. You'd be wrong. They set the expectation of a three year build, in which the first two years would be painful. We don't know exactly what they promised for that third year, because they promised it to the person to whom they are actually accountable. Until they fail to deliver on that, whatever it is, they won't be using up any excuses. Maybe they'll fail to deliver so badly they don't get a second chance. Maybe they'll deliver but you'll still think they didn't. Maybe they'll miss their expectations but not by so much Khan doesn't give them another year. But we're not at that point yet.
I think the absolute worst record I could tolerate is 4-12, as long as it also comes with us losing a maximum of 1 game by 15 points or more. Basically, at minimum, I can tolerate one more year of heavy losses as long as we are really competitive and showing great potential for future seasons.
Quote:I think the absolute worst record I could tolerate is 4-12, as long as it also comes with us losing a maximum of 1 game by 15 points or more. Basically, at minimum, I can tolerate one more year of heavy losses as long as we are really competitive and showing great potential for future seasons.
I disagree, i think no matter what, no matter if we lose close games or get killed, the minimum number of wins this teams needs this season is 6. 4-12 is not progress, no matter how you cut that cookie. I defend this coaching staff and regime, but i would absolutely put a win total on this season. 4-12, 3-13 and 4-12 is not exactly "getting better". You gotta produced W's at some point. Heck, i don't even think its outrageous to think we possibly could contend for a playoff spot. That does not mean we will be in the playoffs, but going 7-9 and fighting for a wildcard....thats progress, and something the owner, regime, team and fans can get behind.
4-12, no matter how that happens is not acceptable.
Quote:I think the absolute worst record I could tolerate is 4-12, as long as it also comes with us losing a maximum of 1 game by 15 points or more. Basically, at minimum, I can tolerate one more year of heavy losses as long as we are really competitive and showing great potential for future seasons.
If the team goes 4-12 next season, someone will be fired.
Quote:Ok FBT!! I know all the "facts" or "excuses" to why we sucked the last few years!However you wanna word it,in speaking of this year and this year only what will be the fact or excuse if we have another losing season? And you don't always have to try and belittle someone who shares a different view then you..We all humans and have our own opinions!
You don't know the difference between a fact and what you label an excuse, so it's pointless to even debate the subject with you.
I'd strongly urge you to perhaps take an English class. That's not belittling. That's just a fact.
Our division is some poop. We should get at least 3 wins out of it. Our roster has been sub par the last 2 years but we should see a lot of improvement.
With the remaining 10 games out of division, we should at least win 4 of them.
7 wins minimum for me. Gus can't start 0-6 again. He might be fired mid season if that happens and then Marrone take over.
I'm not sure if we've done enough to warrant postseason talk. I cap it at a minimum of 4-12 and being more competitive as we had 9 losses of 10 points or more last year, which is pathetic. I'm a patient person so I'm just saying, for me personally, I would tolerate a 4-12 year as long as we had a lot more games that we could have legitimately won. I know for most people losses are losses, but for me their is a big difference between one possession losses and multi-possession losses.
I think realistic expectations should be that the team is at least "in the hunt" when you get past week 13. It could even be one of those long shot 5-7 teams but at least still with a shot.
Quote:If the team goes 4-12 next season, someone will be fired.
I can see situations where that wouldn't happen - a good start to the season followed by a rash of injuries and some bad luck, for example. The fact is that the people making the decisions are always going to look at the circumstances, not just the record.
Quote:I can see situations where that wouldn't happen - a good start to the season followed by a rash of injuries and some bad luck, for example. The fact is that the people making the decisions are always going to look at the circumstances, not just the record.
There are always exceptions, but I'm pretty sure that if the team simply under-performs, heads will roll.
Quote:I can see situations where that wouldn't happen - a good start to the season followed by a rash of injuries and some bad luck, for example. The fact is that the people making the decisions are always going to look at the circumstances, not just the record.
There is NO WAY you can sell that to a fan base who has stuck by this team while they have sucked the last decade. Sorry, i know injuries and being a young team happen, but no way, can you go 4-12, 3-13 and 4-12 again and expect to keep things intact. NFL is a production based league, and while I'm very pro Caldwell and Bradley, results at the end of the day are all that matter. 4 wins means nothing....NOTHING. If you go 4-12, you pretty much suck, you can be competitive all you want in losses, but 4 wins is really really really bad...you all realize that right?
I don't think this team is going 4-12, and i completely trust Caldwell and Bradley, but boy, no way 4-12 is acceptable in year 3 of a rebuild. You gotta get W's this time around. No matter how you try to spin it, W's are what the team needs. Not necessarily playoffs, but a team thats fighting for a wildcard in the end of November, early December is what real progress is. Sure, if they lose their last few games and miss out on that wildcard spot, go 6-10 ( hypothetically) that is something to build on. Atleast we have a glimmer of hope. 4-12....sorry, thats just sucking and staying the same.
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