Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

There was probably some guy on the Colts board 2 years ago saying.. "Do what you want but I will never root for my Colts to lose. There is no guarantee that this Andrew Luck will work out. We need to win and maybe get a Dalton in the 2nd round!"

Quote:There was probably some guy on the Colts board 2 years ago saying.. "Do what you want but I will never root for my Colts to lose. There is no guarantee that this Andrew Luck will work out. We need to win and maybe get a Dalton in the 2nd round!"

 

Yeah, and the rest of the Colts fans are probably laughing hysterically at the thought.

I don't care if the fans want the team to "tank."  You want to know why?  Because it doesn't matter what we think.  I can tell this team is trying to win games, and if they do, I am not going to cry about drafting 4th or 5th instead of first. 

 

What if by some out of body miracle scenario this team goes on a 4 game winning streak?  It certainly could happen.  It is what it is.  You can still find GREAT players at the 4th through 15th pick in the draft. 

 

Here is a scenario.  What if Caldwell doesn't like Teddy as much as TMD, and he decides to take Clowney?  Anything could happen from now until draft time.  I think it was about this time last year Geno Smith began to fall way down the draft board. 

 

Also just because you get the guy, doesn't mean you are in for instant success.  Example Matt Stafford.  While a very good QB with exceptional talent, one playoff appearance in in 4 and a half season.  Although they could make the playoffs this season. 

Quote:No it's not a complicated question.

 

The team isn't going anywhere this season, and isn't likely to go anywhere in the foreseeable future without getting a franchise signal caller.

 

I am willing to accept an abundance of short term losses to gain an even greater abundance of long term winning.  So yes, I want the team to win.

 

I just don't care to see them win meaningless games that would only serve to defeat the purpose stated above.

Apparently it is a complicated question. Let me simplify it so you will understand. Do you want the Jaguars to win this week? How about next week? How about any game this season? Now, just to keep it simple for you, you have three questions before you. Each needs an answer of either yes or no.

 

I can't make it any simpler than that so we will alll understand.

 

Now, do you want the team to win. There are 3 very simple yes or no questions before you. If you need help with comprehending the questions, feel free to PM me.

Quote:Apparently it is a complicated question. Let me simplify it so you will understand. Do you want the Jaguars to win this week? How about next week? How about any game this season? Now, just to keep it simple for you, you have three questions before you. Each needs an answer of either yes or no.

 

I can't make it any simpler than that so we will alll understand.

 

Now, do you want the team to win. There are 3 very simple yes or no questions before you. If you need help with comprehending the questions, feel free to PM me.

Just because YOU live in a simplistic, YES/NO black/white world doesn't mean the rest of us do.

 

Some people value nuanced analysis over simplistic screed.

 

My answers in this thread have been perfectly understandable.

Quote:Just because YOU live in a simplistic, YES/NO black/white world doesn't mean the rest of us do.


Some people value nuanced analysis over simplistic screed.


My answers in this thread have been perfectly understandable.

Was going to say the say thing to his post. I thought your post clearly states your thoughts on the topic. Not sure why that guy is so he'll bent on those stupid questions. Must make him feel like he is winning a useless internet debate or something. Which in turn makes him feel better about something he's lacking elsewhere.

Quote:If the Jags end up with the first overall pick after playing their hearts out and losing more than every other team, I will be extatic.


You confuse draft position with my (or any fan's) willingness or hopes to see their team lose.


It's what seperates the winner fans from the loser fans.


Case in point: Pick any random player from any random NFL team. Put me and one of my counterparts in front of said player. Hell, pick a coach or executive. Pick anyone in the game. Now, tell me that you will find a single one who will buy their argument over mine.


What more is there really to say?

Then put yourself in this scenario. Week 17: last game of the season, Giants, Buccaneers are both tied with 0-16 record, having already played their last regular season game. The Jags are sitting at 0-15 and is about to play the Colts or Texans (or whoever) 2nd string players. Jags lose and they get the 1st overall pick, win and get they the 3rd pick. What do YOU want the team to do, win or lose? By your logic, you want to see them win, right?


No fans or players want to see their team struggling, period. But at some point halfway into the season, anybody can see that, STRATEGICALLY, there is no benifit whatsoever to winning a couple of meaningless games. Unfortunatwly this is the current sad state of the Jaguars.


So you need to stop playing the "real fan only wanting to see the team wins no matter what" moral card, and try to understand the REALITY of the current state of this team.

Quote:Just because YOU live in a simplistic, YES/NO black/white world doesn't mean the rest of us do.

 

Some people value nuanced analysis over simplistic screed.

 

My answers in this thread have been perfectly understandable.

I've had no trouble understanding your viewpoints. I guess our minds all work differently though.

 

Here's what I don't get about those whining about the "bibbers" on this board:

 

When we wanted (insert name here) cut and/or fired, all I see is answers of "give it time" or "this is a long-term project" and other answers pointing toward the future. That being said, why in the world would those same people turn around and criticize the portion of our fan-base who is more interested in the long-term future than five or six meaningless wins? This season is clearly a lost cause for the team, performance-wise. Instead of this division of the fan-base, why can't we all just put our focus into the long-term future and enjoy it together, as fans of OUR team?

 

When it's game time, I'm in the stands cheering, loud and proud, hoping to see a victory. At the same time, I realize that a bad season this year could be what leads us to becoming perennial contenders. Personally, I want Teddy Bridgewater. Whether you agree or disagree, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, we all want the Jaguars to draft the best player we can possibly draft. In the end, I don't care who it is as long as it leads to us winning.

When we hit the decade-without-a-good QB mark. I would rather root for one terrible season followed by 9 with a franchise QB than the same mediocrity we've experienced since Brunell left.

Quote:I've had no trouble understanding your viewpoints. I guess our minds all work differently though.

 

Here's what I don't get about those whining about the "bibbers" on this board:

 

When we wanted (insert name here) cut and/or fired, all I see is answers of "give it time" or "this is a long-term project" and other answers pointing toward the future. That being said, why in the world would those same people turn around and criticize the portion of our fan-base who is more interested in the long-term future than five or six meaningless wins? This season is clearly a lost cause for the team, performance-wise. Instead of this division of the fan-base, why can't we all just put our focus into the long-term future and enjoy it together, as fans of OUR team?

 

When it's game time, I'm in the stands cheering, loud and proud, hoping to see a victory. At the same time, I realize that a bad season this year could be what leads us to becoming perennial contenders. Personally, I want Teddy Bridgewater. Whether you agree or disagree, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, we all want the Jaguars to draft the best player we can possibly draft. In the end, I don't care who it is as long as it leads to us winning.

 

Precisely!

 

Not a difficult concept to grasp at all.

Even if one has the most simplestic viewpoint, this is not something that is hard to understand.

Question:

 

Should a team go all out to win in the preseason to establish a winning mindset, at the expense of accurately evaluating the roster?

 

Why or why not?

I want the Jaguars to win in the long run.  Winning this season doesn't help them get any better.  The roster will not change for the better because of it.

Quote:There was probably some guy on the Colts board 2 years ago saying.. "Do what you want but I will never root for my Colts to lose. There is no guarantee that this Andrew Luck will work out. We need to win and maybe get a Dalton in the 2nd round!"

I"m sure there were people who were rooting for their team  to lose to get Jamarcus Russel, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Tim Brown's, etc who were picked at or near  the top of the draft.  I do admit it's a better lottery ticket when you pick near the top but it's still a gamble.

Whether you pick 1st overall, 2nd 3rd or the last pick of the 7th round, is it all a "gamble" as you have no concrete evidence to how they perform in the long term.  The purpose of the draft order is to allow the worst (weakest) team from the previous season to get the first opportunity to select the player -- or trade down for more picks -- they feel has the best chance to succeed to help their team.  Risks and gamble have nothing to do with draft order.

Quote:I"m sure there were people who were rooting for their team  to lose to get Jamarcus Russel, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, Tim Brown's, etc who were picked at or near  the top of the draft.  I do admit it's a better lottery ticket when you pick near the top but it's still a gamble.

There were a ton of these same people who wanted the Jags to tank to get Jevan Snead a few years ago. Jevan friggin Snead.... :blink:

 

Now, they're so sure Bridgewater is the sure fire savior. He very likely may be, but he also may not be.

 

It's okay though. I am clearly not going to change the minds of the so called "fans" so I'll just sit back and watch them cheer and giggle with every loss. It's what makes them happy after all.....

Quote:There were a ton of these same people who wanted the Jags to tank to get Jevan Snead a few years ago. Jevan friggin Snead.... :blink:

 

Now, they're so sure Bridgewater is the sure fire savior. He very likely may be, but he also may not be.

 

It's okay though. I am clearly not going to change the minds of the so called "fans" so I'll just sit back and watch them cheer and giggle with every loss. It's what makes them happy after all.....

 

I don't remember anyone, ANYone, saying to tank for Jevan Snead. I don't think Snead was ever a remote threat to be selected anywhere close to #1 overall, thus shooting holes in this claim. 

 

And to act as if Snead is/ was on the level of a prospect as Bridgewater?....well thats kinda funny. 

I want the team to win as many games as possible while still securing the #1 pick. I also want every loss to be by 1 point to make it exciting for me to watch.

 

To want this team to potentially win meaningless games and make our chances of getting better long term even more difficult, well you are just a loser who wants the team to continue losing. sorry Dakota, you arnt a fan of this team and it shows, loser.

Quote:1. When did it start for you? Was it at 0-1, 0-2, 0-3, etc? Just curious.

 

2. Will it be and has it always been this way for you all along?

 

3. If we get Bridgewater and we go 0-2 or up to 0-6 next year are any wins after "meaningless"?

 

4. How many wins do we have to have out of the first six games to make any after worthwhile and not tank again?

 

 

 

Edit to clearly define seperate questions.

 

I'll bite

 

1) 0-4

2) I want the team to win but I'd be angry if we missed out on a franchise QB this year

3)no

4) if we get Bridgewater (or other top rated QB prospect) in the next draft the clock starts on the new front office/coaching staff. No wins would be meaningless.

Quote:There were a ton of these same people who wanted the Jags to tank to get Jevan Snead a few years ago. Jevan friggin Snead.... :blink:

 

Now, they're so sure Bridgewater is the sure fire savior. He very likely may be, but he also may not be.

 

It's okay though. I am clearly not going to change the minds of the so called "fans" so I'll just sit back and watch them cheer and giggle with every loss. It's what makes them happy after all.....

 

Those are two different issues you are discussing.

 

Issue 1:  Whether the "bibbers" are advocating the team could benefit from a higher draft position.

 

Issue 2:  Whether the "bibbers" think the team should use the benefit of that higher draft position on a particular player-in this case Jevan Snead.

 

A bibber or group of bibbers misidentifying the player the team should take with the higher draft position (issue 2) is really irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion.  It's not necessary for people posting on the message board to correctly evaluate a particular player.  That is the team's mandate.

 

However, draft position could mean all of the difference in the world in determining whether a team maximizes the benefit a draft could offer.  A team with too low a draft position could, indeed, correctly identify the top player at a given position-even if that analysis differs than that of the "bibbers."  However, if the team's original pick is not high enough to draft that player, and the team in position to draft that player has no interest in trading down to allow our team to get him, then in most instances, whether the team evaluated the player properly or not becomes moot.

 

It is entirely possible Bobby Beathard ( a successful long time GM with the Dolphins, Skins, and Chargers) evaluated the 1998 draft properly and determined that Peyton Manning was the best QB in the draft, the best player in the draft, and had him at the top of the draft board.  However, since Indy wound up picking one spot ahead of them, Beathard's correct analysis of the top of the draft became moot when Indy decided to retain the pick and chose Peyton Manning for themselves.  Beathard and the Bolts were left to pick the best of the remaining players (which, for obvious reasons, excluded Manning).  SD, also needing a QB, chose Ryan Leaf.  Again, its possible that, if given a choice between Manning and Leaf, Beathard would have chosen Manning and NFL history would have been much different.  However, that choice was taken from him due to draft position.  At this point, the incorrect evaluation of Ryan Leaf's value vis-a-vis the rest of the draft class became the issue.

 

Now we "bibbers" may or may not have a preference for a particular player to be chosen, and that preference may or may not match the analysis of the team.  But, we want the team to have EVERY opportunity to get it right, without possibly having the team's preferred choice taken from them before they had the chance to utilize the pick on the player.  If the team got the pick right, it's fine with me if their choice is different from mine.  To see this in action, look at all of the converts now singing Blackmon's praises when many last year didn't want him, continued to blindly accept Ketchmanite philosophy and eschew "shiny things."