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So we agree the US gained nothing out of this dog and pony show? If we don't, please specify what we did gain. If we didn't, explain why we need to treat it as if we did. The way I see it, the WH and FOX are trying to spin this like we disarmed NK. We clearly did not.
(06-12-2018, 01:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (06-12-2018, 01:01 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]I hate the guy but Dennis Rodman is 100 times more honest than Barack Obama. He's just crazy.
Ok.
Rodman has zero clout so when someone says his word "speak volumes", I just have to laugh.
(06-14-2018, 02:48 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]So we agree the US gained nothing out of this dog and pony show? If we don't, please specify what we did gain. If we didn't, explain why we need to treat it as if we did. The way I see it, the WH and FOX are trying to spin this like we disarmed NK. We clearly did not.
Did you expect denuclearization of an entire peninsula in 2 days? Maybe you can explain how you think that is possible?
(06-14-2018, 02:48 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]So we agree the US gained nothing out of this dog and pony show? If we don't, please specify what we did gain. If we didn't, explain why we need to treat it as if we did. The way I see it, the WH and FOX are trying to spin this like we disarmed NK. We clearly did not.
We "gained" the opportunity to continue with negotiations. It was a meeting which only lasted several hours that was meant for nothing more than to break the ice.
Well, we didn't give away billions of dollars to fund their continuing nuclear program like the jug-eared [BLEEP] before.
(06-14-2018, 11:41 AM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]So I am clear.. We should be happy a meeting took place. One where NK got major concessions (which China actually wanted too) and we got nothing. This guy talks about how bad the Iran deal was, but this is a good deal for America? How? Future considerations? Please tell me you're joking. NK got the attention and the guise of being a legitimate nation. AND we unilaterally halted military activity without a word being had with the Pentagon or South Korea which has lived in fear of attack for decades. If Obama did this, I would say it sucks and FOX News would be on 24 hour aneurysm watch. We got precisely jack. It's okay to admit that. It's okay to say you hope for more. But it's not okay to act like anything got accomplished that makes us any better off today. We have no oversight. No verification. Just an empty promise from a guy who kills his own people.
Over one hundred billion dollars going to prop up the Iranian regime, vs. a temporary halt to joint military exercises that have already been carried out time and time again.
Only someone totally overcome with TDS could think these are anywhere close to equivalent.
(06-14-2018, 11:55 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 10:02 AM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]The fact a face to face meeting took place is historical in itself! Now we are picking it apart and criticizing? I’m assuming the majority of folks who post here have at least a high school diploma. So, I would also assume that folks can reason and realize neither side gave up anything. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. A piece of paper was signed that stated specific topics to address as they move forward. This is just one step in what is a long process and each one of those topics will be hammered out to the smallest detail.
This will not be like anything of the past. A photo op does not automatically put you on the same level on the world stage (even if Kim feels it does) but if that is what sparks further negotiations, so be it. As far as exercises go, most are conducted electronically through tabletop simulation. The physical ones aren’t going anywhere no matter what Trump says. Mattis and the DoD will make sure he understands this
I'm sure if this was a former president you'd be saying the same things......
Unfortunately, the opportunity never presented itself so I guess we’ll never know.
(06-14-2018, 11:33 AM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 10:37 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Well, hell, let’s throw a win in there for ISIS and Al Qaeda too.
We suspended the exercises as a show of good will and to give NK room to breathe. We always have the option to continue them. It’s as simple as that.
Nothing legitimizes a point more than hyperbole. Any lessening of U.S. military presence in the region is a big win for North Korea, China and, yes, Russia, which shares a border with North Korea.
And for this "small" concession, Kim is shown to the free world on footing with its leader, and China sees yet another opportunity to expand their influence.
How in the world did you come up with the idea that there woul be a lessening of U.S. presence? Our presence has expanded and will be one of the busiest AORs the DoD has now and into the future. Even if Nk mysteriously dissapeared our commitment to the region would not change.
https://www.defensenews.com/news/your-mi...s-renamed/
(06-14-2018, 11:41 AM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]So I am clear.. We should be happy a meeting took place. One where NK got major concessions (which China actually wanted too) and we got nothing. This guy talks about how bad the Iran deal was, but this is a good deal for America? How? Future considerations? Please tell me you're joking. NK got the attention and the guise of being a legitimate nation. AND we unilaterally halted military activity without a word being had with the Pentagon or South Korea which has lived in fear of attack for decades. If Obama did this, I would say it sucks and FOX News would be on 24 hour aneurysm watch. We got precisely jack. It's okay to admit that. It's okay to say you hope for more. But it's not okay to act like anything got accomplished that makes us any better off today. We have no oversight. No verification. Just an empty promise from a guy who kills his own people.
What "major concessions" did NK and/or China get?
Whether you or anyone else likes it, North Korea is in fact a "legitimate nation". Are they a Superpower? Of course not and nobody in the world views them as such.
What this meeting got for us is open dialog. There was no major agreement made after the first meeting between President Ronald Reagan and General Secretary of the Communist Party Mikhail Gorbachev in 1986. What that meeting did accomplish was opening up dialog with a brutal communist regime which not only eventually led to the end of The Cold War, but it also opened up dialog regarding human rights issues.
As far as suspending military exorcises in the area, that's more of a "dog and pony show" than anything else. Military exorcises happen all over the world almost on a daily basis. It's a big nothing-burger.
My hope is that opening up this dialog will eventually lead to addressing the human rights abuses by the communist North Korean dictatorship as well as address the nuclear development within North Korea.
(06-14-2018, 06:13 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 11:33 AM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ]
Nothing legitimizes a point more than hyperbole. Any lessening of U.S. military presence in the region is a big win for North Korea, China and, yes, Russia, which shares a border with North Korea.
And for this "small" concession, Kim is shown to the free world on footing with its leader, and China sees yet another opportunity to expand their influence.
How in the world did you come up with the idea that there woul be a lessening of U.S. presence? Our presence has expanded and will be one of the busiest AORs the DoD has now and into the future. Even if Nk mysteriously dissapeared our commitment to the region would not change.
https://www.defensenews.com/news/your-mi...s-renamed/
If you don't see cessation of joint training exercises as a lessening of U.S. presence, I can't help you. It's not just about numbers, it's also about the ability to organize a rapid response. Why do you think NK has protested them so much, and for so long?
(06-14-2018, 06:19 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 11:41 AM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]So I am clear.. We should be happy a meeting took place. One where NK got major concessions (which China actually wanted too) and we got nothing. This guy talks about how bad the Iran deal was, but this is a good deal for America? How? Future considerations? Please tell me you're joking. NK got the attention and the guise of being a legitimate nation. AND we unilaterally halted military activity without a word being had with the Pentagon or South Korea which has lived in fear of attack for decades. If Obama did this, I would say it sucks and FOX News would be on 24 hour aneurysm watch. We got precisely jack. It's okay to admit that. It's okay to say you hope for more. But it's not okay to act like anything got accomplished that makes us any better off today. We have no oversight. No verification. Just an empty promise from a guy who kills his own people.
What "major concessions" did NK and/or China get?
Whether you or anyone else likes it, North Korea is in fact a "legitimate nation". Are they a Superpower? Of course not and nobody in the world views them as such.
What this meeting got for us is open dialog. There was no major agreement made after the first meeting between President Ronald Reagan and General Secretary of the Communist Party Mikhail Gorbachev in 1986. What that meeting did accomplish was opening up dialog with a brutal communist regime which not only eventually led to the end of The Cold War, but it also opened up dialog regarding human rights issues.
As far as suspending military exorcises in the area, that's more of a "dog and pony show" than anything else. Military exorcises happen all over the world almost on a daily basis. It's a big nothing-burger.
My hope is that opening up this dialog will eventually lead to addressing the human rights abuses by the communist North Korean dictatorship as well as address the nuclear development within North Korea.
You and HB seem to disagree. Aren't joint exercises important for maintaining readiness?
(06-14-2018, 07:07 PM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 06:13 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]How in the world did you come up with the idea that there woul be a lessening of U.S. presence? Our presence has expanded and will be one of the busiest AORs the DoD has now and into the future. Even if Nk mysteriously dissapeared our commitment to the region would not change.
https://www.defensenews.com/news/your-mi...s-renamed/
If you don't see cessation of joint training exercises as a lessening of U.S. presence, I can't help you. It's not just about numbers, it's also about the ability to organize a rapid response. Why do you think NK has protested them so much, and for so long?
My guess is that they protested them because every time we staged a joint military exercise it looked like it could be an actual attack. After all, how do the Norks tell a real attack from a practice one?
As far as being necessary, eventually the troops will lose the edge that the exercises give them. That happens long after we discover that KJU reneged on his promise, so basically we gave up nothing. Admittedly they haven't either, but at least we haven't given them $100B to prop up their regime while we wait. We'll see if the Norks follow through on their promise. I doubt they will, but even a 1% chance is better than nothing.
We earned the opportunity to negotiate? That wasn't free already?
We signed an agreement that requires the US to stop a joint exercise for military defense in exchange for a promise that has no oversight or verification. They took something they wanted and we got "his word" he will denuke. We have no clue what their current capabilities are. There are no specifics. No timeline. No conditions.
We give up something very real today. Sonething the Pentagon and South Korea wanted. For a promise that has been broken a dozen times already. But "I trust him," says Trump so it is about a guarantee, right? Are you [BLEEP] kidding me?
The Iran Deal was such a bad deal. It was over 150 pages. This is 2 and gives the US nothing today and no guarantee for tomorrow. Please. Stop. I'm too sick of winning.
Admit it. The fool (who didn't feel the need to prepare) got played. Something for nothing. NK murders their own people. Treats them inhumanely. And he is made legitimate on a global stage. What didn't Kim Jong Un get? We got zip.
(06-14-2018, 07:08 PM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 06:19 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]What "major concessions" did NK and/or China get?
Whether you or anyone else likes it, North Korea is in fact a "legitimate nation". Are they a Superpower? Of course not and nobody in the world views them as such.
What this meeting got for us is open dialog. There was no major agreement made after the first meeting between President Ronald Reagan and General Secretary of the Communist Party Mikhail Gorbachev in 1986. What that meeting did accomplish was opening up dialog with a brutal communist regime which not only eventually led to the end of The Cold War, but it also opened up dialog regarding human rights issues.
As far as suspending military exorcises in the area, that's more of a "dog and pony show" than anything else. Military exorcises happen all over the world almost on a daily basis. It's a big nothing-burger.
My hope is that opening up this dialog will eventually lead to addressing the human rights abuses by the communist North Korean dictatorship as well as address the nuclear development within North Korea.
You and HB seem to disagree. Aren't joint exercises important for maintaining readiness?
Important for maintaining readiness? Yes. Critical? No. Just because a drill is called off doesn't mean that assets aren't in the area. From experience I would bet that the U.S. Navy assets in the area will still conduct drills and training, it just won't
publicly be in conjunction with foreign military and not advertised. They are still there and still doing what they do.
The MSM is giving the illusion that military exercises are cut off and not happening. I would bet that there are both U.S. and other country's warships (including submarines) not far off the coast of Korea right now. They are still going to train, the only difference is that it's not going to be a publicly named exercise.
(06-14-2018, 08:20 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]We earned the opportunity to negotiate? That wasn't free already?
We signed an agreement that requires the US to stop a joint exercise for military defense in exchange for a promise that has no oversight or verification. They took something they wanted and we got "his word" he will denuke. We have no clue what their current capabilities are. There are no specifics. No timeline. No conditions.
We give up something very real today. Sonething the Pentagon and South Korea wanted. For a promise that has been broken a dozen times already. But "I trust him," says Trump so it is about a guarantee, right? Are you [BLEEP] kidding me?
The Iran Deal was such a bad deal. It was over 150 pages. This is 2 and gives the US nothing today and no guarantee for tomorrow. Please. Stop. I'm too sick of winning.
Admit it. The fool (who didn't feel the need to prepare) got played. Something for nothing. NK murders their own people. Treats them inhumanely. And he is made legitimate on a global stage. What didn't Kim Jong Un get? We got zip.
Why don't you just admit that regardless of what Trump does, you will never give him one iota of the benefit of the doubt?
"But if this were Obama you guys would be..." Yeah, we get it, but why can't you at least hold off on the invective and keep just a smidgen of an open mind?
(06-14-2018, 09:40 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 08:20 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]We earned the opportunity to negotiate? That wasn't free already?
We signed an agreement that requires the US to stop a joint exercise for military defense in exchange for a promise that has no oversight or verification. They took something they wanted and we got "his word" he will denuke. We have no clue what their current capabilities are. There are no specifics. No timeline. No conditions.
We give up something very real today. Sonething the Pentagon and South Korea wanted. For a promise that has been broken a dozen times already. But "I trust him," says Trump so it is about a guarantee, right? Are you [BLEEP] kidding me?
The Iran Deal was such a bad deal. It was over 150 pages. This is 2 and gives the US nothing today and no guarantee for tomorrow. Please. Stop. I'm too sick of winning.
Admit it. The fool (who didn't feel the need to prepare) got played. Something for nothing. NK murders their own people. Treats them inhumanely. And he is made legitimate on a global stage. What didn't Kim Jong Un get? We got zip.
Why don't you just admit that regardless of what Trump does, you will never give him one iota of the benefit of the doubt?
"But if this were Obama you guys would be..." Yeah, we get it, but why can't you at least hold off on the invective and keep just a smidgen of an open mind?
Hoping and praying for the failure of the diplomacy we were told was the highest and noblest responsibility of the last administration. Sad.
(06-14-2018, 08:20 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]The Iran Deal was such a bad deal. It was over 150 pages.
So almost a billion dollars for every worthless page it was written on then?
(06-14-2018, 08:20 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]The Iran Deal was such a bad deal. It was over 150 pages.
So it was only 15% as bad as the 'Affordable' Care Act?
(06-14-2018, 08:20 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]We earned the opportunity to negotiate? That wasn't free already?
We signed an agreement that requires the US to stop a joint exercise for military defense in exchange for a promise that has no oversight or verification. They took something they wanted and we got "his word" he will denuke. We have no clue what their current capabilities are. There are no specifics. No timeline. No conditions.
We give up something very real today. Sonething the Pentagon and South Korea wanted. For a promise that has been broken a dozen times already. But "I trust him," says Trump so it is about a guarantee, right? Are you [BLEEP] kidding me?
The Iran Deal was such a bad deal. It was over 150 pages. This is 2 and gives the US nothing today and no guarantee for tomorrow. Please. Stop. I'm too sick of winning.
Admit it. The fool (who didn't feel the need to prepare) got played. Something for nothing. NK murders their own people. Treats them inhumanely. And he is made legitimate on a global stage. What didn't Kim Jong Un get? We got zip.
My God...
This is how pathetic the left has become. Utterly and completely delusional. It's not even debatable anymore - you're legitimately insane.
It was a positive first step with nothing conceded. If Obama had done this you would be over the frigging moon that he was actually taking steps to denuclearizing this regime or at the very least attempting to... instead he ignored them. Now they have ICBMs, SLBMs and a ballistic submarine fleet. Well done. Well done, Obama, let's give you all the applause you deserve
(06-14-2018, 08:20 PM)Kotite Wrote: [ -> ]This is 2 and gives the US nothing today and no guarantee for tomorrow.
It cost us nothing. Your TDS cohorts can whine about the stoppage of joint military exercises (and this is a first for the far Left!) but the US can still do exercises on their own, and I doubt the South Korean military adds much value anyway.
Besides the promise of nuclear disarmament the US has gotten several hostages back, and a promise to return US Korean War dead (maybe this has already started?), all thanks to Trump. So don't say we got nothing.
Your true love Obummer didn't get any hostages back from NK in his eight years, nor negotiate for the bodies of the US war casualties, although he did pay out a lot of the working poor US taxpayers money for hostages from Iran, and traded five high ranking terrorists for one traitor.
I see. It's because I don't like Trump that I think this is a huge failure.
It's not because the agreement that was signed provides no tangible way to tell if KJU is holding up his end of the deal.
I promise you if Obama, W, Clinton or Reagan did this same deal, it would suck just the same. If you think this is "winning," you are a clueless fool.
(06-14-2018, 07:07 PM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ] (06-14-2018, 06:13 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]How in the world did you come up with the idea that there woul be a lessening of U.S. presence? Our presence has expanded and will be one of the busiest AORs the DoD has now and into the future. Even if Nk mysteriously dissapeared our commitment to the region would not change.
https://www.defensenews.com/news/your-mi...s-renamed/
If you don't see cessation of joint training exercises as a lessening of U.S. presence, I can't help you. It's not just about numbers, it's also about the ability to organize a rapid response. Why do you think NK has protested them so much, and for so long?
If you only understood how off base you really are. FYI, you don’t need to help me or explain anything. I worked for the Command for 10 years. As an exercise and evaluation member I graded many of the exercises. The joint exercises are for show and mainly for the benefit of the ROK forces. We don’t need to exercise anywhere near Nk soil to be effective. We have our own exercises that aren’t heavily broadcasted to the world for obvious reasons.
NK protested because they have a strong hate for the U.S. and well, China tells them to. Neither China nor Russian wants U.S. forces or a western influenced country on their border.
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