(07-18-2019, 03:54 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 02:39 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Except the President didn't say that. He never said "send them back" he suggested that they "go back" to their country of origin (or heritage), fix the problems there then come back and tell us how to do it. He didn't say it because of their ethnicity, rather he said it because of what they stand for and believe. In a nutshell they don't seem to like our country.
He didn't say it to any white people, though.
I have heard people say, in a very racist way, "They should all go back to Africa" or "We should send them all back to Africa." It's very common thing to say among racists. I grew up knowing quite a few of them. They usually tossed in the N-word when they said it. That's why his remark is considered racist. It has been a very common thing for racists to say.
Now, is Trump a racist? Or is he just a demagogue fanning the flames to fire up his base? Or is he just an idiot who doesn't understand what he's saying? Or is he all three of those? One thing for sure- that guy should not be President of the United States.
Last night, at a Trump rally, the crowd started chanting "Send her back! Send her back!" Trump stood up there looking real pleased with himself. Sort of reminded me of Mussolini. Now this morning, Trump is saying he didn't like that chant. So maybe, just maybe, his friends have finally gotten through to him that he has gone way over the line.
I know we’re talking about Trump, but I have to I admit I have told someone to go back to their country if they didn’t like it here. Before I’m labeled a racist, it was a white British girl/woman [BLEEP] about the US and it was shortly after 9/11. Is that ok? I assume so because I was called into HR and they didn’t do anything. They did ask me to apologize, but I refused. They insisted, so I said I’d apologize for hurting her feelings but not for what I said. They agreed. I don’t regret saying what I said one bit. Coming over here for a better life then [BLEEP] about the country giving it to you. Smh.
(07-18-2019, 03:11 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 02:39 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Except the President didn't say that. He never said "send them back" he suggested that they "go back" to their country of origin (or heritage), fix the problems there then come back and tell us how to do it. He didn't say it because of their ethnicity, rather he said it because of what they stand for and believe. In a nutshell they don't seem to like our country.
So if I understand you, Trump and the other conservatives jumping on proverbial grenades to defend Trump here, espousing favor towards identifying or sympathizing with individuals or entities that show hostility to this country and its values justifiably earns you an invite to leave the country, wholly independent of color, race, citizenship or national origin?
Where, then, are the urgings for those who fly the confederate flag, who support the preservation of confederate monuments, who wear or peddle Confederate insignias to leave the country?
The Confederacy were American citizens who renounced their American citizenship to form an entity their leaders openly admitted were founded upon principles antithetical to the U.S. Constitution, and took up arms against American troops. If successful, their actions would have led minimally to ELEVEN (11) fewer stars on the flag and a country substantially smaller and size and stature than the one we have now. As it stands, Confederate actions cost over 600,000 Americans their lives and divides this country to this day. In the decades al Qaeda has been in existence, they haven't come close to achieving those results against this country.
Yet Trump does not tell them to leave the country (not secede...just leave). Instead, he welcomes them eagerly among his base, and many of you clamoring for the squad to depart based on anti American sentiment fly the flags and revere the people of the Confederacy.
Why?
1. Yes and no. His tweet had nothing to do with their ethnicity other than the fact that they "came from" a different country either directly or as a child of immigrants. He simply was saying that they complain about how our country is and pretty much told them "if you don't like it leave" which we are all free to do. This isn't North Korea or another of the many Socialist countries that actually build barriers to keep people in. He also invited them back to show us all how they fixed the problems of the country of their heritage. That's not "racist". He never said "send them back".
2. Because those that fly the confederate flag and support the preservation of confederate monuments are citizens of this country. Like it or not the confederate war is a part of our country's history. Like it or not some of the monuments are there because there were great people on both sides of that war that define who we are as a country. General Lee was one of the greatest warriors ever in that era as was Andrew Jackson who this very city happens to be named after. History should not be erased of forgotten rather it should be taught and embraced. Those were certainly different times.
You really can't compare the confederacy to modern times. While I understand that the Confederate Flag or certain monuments might be "offensive" to some people, in my personal opinion I look upon those things as part of our history.
Now I'm not going to sit here and claim that those symbols are not used by racist people. Yes they sometimes are. However, it's a small minority of people that are fading away. I personally don't have "a dog in this fight" regarding slavery since my heritage neither owned slaves or were slaves during that time.
I don't want to go too off topic here but the bottom line is that the President's tweets were in no way "racist".
(07-18-2019, 03:54 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 02:39 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Except the President didn't say that. He never said "send them back" he suggested that they "go back" to their country of origin (or heritage), fix the problems there then come back and tell us how to do it. He didn't say it because of their ethnicity, rather he said it because of what they stand for and believe. In a nutshell they don't seem to like our country.
He didn't say it to any white people, though.
I have heard people say, in a very racist way, "They should all go back to Africa" or "We should send them all back to Africa." It's very common thing to say among racists. I grew up knowing quite a few of them. They usually tossed in the N-word when they said it. That's why his remark is considered racist. It has been a very common thing for racists to say.
Now, is Trump a racist? Or is he just a demagogue fanning the flames to fire up his base? Or is he just an idiot who doesn't understand what he's saying? Or is he all three of those? One thing for sure- that guy should not be President of the United States.
Last night, at a Trump rally, the crowd started chanting "Send her back! Send her back!" Trump stood up there looking real pleased with himself. Sort of reminded me of Mussolini. Now this morning, Trump is saying he didn't like that chant. So maybe, just maybe, his friends have finally gotten through to him that he has gone way over the line.
Regarding your comment in bold.
That's exactly why the far left and the MSM immediately labeled his tweet as "racist".
At first I thought it was a mistake that he made. The democrat party was constantly in the news with the in-fighting between Nancy Pelosi and the 4 children. Once the President put himself into that fight it forced Pelosi to align herself with the far left fringe of her party.
Quite frankly, I think it was a calculated and brilliant political move. Moderates may not particularly like President Trump, but when they look at the alternative (far left socialists) they will either "hold their nose" and re-elect President Trump or just stay home. It pushed the only "reasonable" democrat (Pelosi) to align herself with the far left. Moderate voters will see exactly what the democrat part has become.
Either way I think he wins a second term. I would also put money on at least 3 of the 4 of "the squad" being 1 term legislators.
(07-18-2019, 04:45 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 03:54 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]He didn't say it to any white people, though.
I have heard people say, in a very racist way, "They should all go back to Africa" or "We should send them all back to Africa." It's very common thing to say among racists. I grew up knowing quite a few of them. They usually tossed in the N-word when they said it. That's why his remark is considered racist. It has been a very common thing for racists to say.
Now, is Trump a racist? Or is he just a demagogue fanning the flames to fire up his base? Or is he just an idiot who doesn't understand what he's saying? Or is he all three of those? One thing for sure- that guy should not be President of the United States.
Last night, at a Trump rally, the crowd started chanting "Send her back! Send her back!" Trump stood up there looking real pleased with himself. Sort of reminded me of Mussolini. Now this morning, Trump is saying he didn't like that chant. So maybe, just maybe, his friends have finally gotten through to him that he has gone way over the line.
Regarding your comment in bold.
That's exactly why the far left and the MSM immediately labeled his tweet as "racist".
At first I thought it was a mistake that he made. The democrat party was constantly in the news with the in-fighting between Nancy Pelosi and the 4 children. Once the President put himself into that fight it forced Pelosi to align herself with the far left fringe of her party.
Quite frankly, I think it was a calculated and brilliant political move. Moderates may not particularly like President Trump, but when they look at the alternative (far left socialists) they will either "hold their nose" and re-elect President Trump or just stay home. It pushed the only "reasonable" democrat (Pelosi) to align herself with the far left. Moderate voters will see exactly what the democrat part has become.
Either way I think he wins a second term. I would also put money on at least 3 of the 4 of "the squad" being 1 term legislators.
Not to mention the GOP likely taking back the house and the Trump agenda being in full swing for at least 2 years.
jagibelieve
(07-18-2019, 03:11 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]So if I understand you, Trump and the other conservatives jumping on proverbial grenades to defend Trump here, espousing favor towards identifying or sympathizing with individuals or entities that show hostility to this country and its values justifiably earns you an invite to leave the country, wholly independent of color, race, citizenship or national origin?
Where, then, are the urgings for those who fly the confederate flag, who support the preservation of confederate monuments, who wear or peddle Confederate insignias to leave the country?
The Confederacy were American citizens who renounced their American citizenship to form an entity their leaders openly admitted were founded upon principles antithetical to the U.S. Constitution, and took up arms against American troops. If successful, their actions would have led minimally to ELEVEN (11) fewer stars on the flag and a country substantially smaller and size and stature than the one we have now. As it stands, Confederate actions cost over 600,000 Americans their lives and divides this country to this day. In the decades al Qaeda has been in existence, they haven't come close to achieving those results against this country.
Yet Trump does not tell them to leave the country (not secede...just leave). Instead, he welcomes them eagerly among his base, and many of you clamoring for the squad to depart based on anti American sentiment fly the flags and revere the people of the Confederacy.
Why?
Quote:1. Yes and no. His tweet had nothing to do with their ethnicity other than the fact that they "came from" a different country either directly or as a child of immigrants. He simply was saying that they complain about how our country is and pretty much told them "if you don't like it leave" which we are all free to do. This isn't North Korea or another of the many Socialist countries that actually build barriers to keep people in. He also invited them back to show us all how they fixed the problems of the country of their heritage. That's not "racist". He never said "send them back".
2. Because those that fly the confederate flag and support the preservation of confederate monuments are citizens of this country. Like it or not the confederate war is a part of our country's history. Like it or not some of the monuments are there because there were great people on both sides of that war that define who we are as a country. General Lee was one of the greatest warriors ever in that era as was Andrew Jackson who this very city happens to be named after. History should not be erased of forgotten rather it should be taught and embraced. Those were certainly different times.
You really can't compare the confederacy to modern times. While I understand that the Confederate Flag or certain monuments might be "offensive" to some people, in my personal opinion I look upon those things as part of our history.
Now I'm not going to sit here and claim that those symbols are not used by racist people. Yes they sometimes are. However, it's a small minority of people that are fading away. I personally don't have "a dog in this fight" regarding slavery since my heritage neither owned slaves or were slaves during that time.
I don't want to go too off topic here but the bottom line is that the President's tweets were in no way "racist".
2. Complete propaganda. AOC, Omar, et al are ALL U.S. CITIZENS! That is objective fact. As such, that should not be ANY BASIS for distinction in these cases whatsoever. As far as being a part of this country's history, Benedict Arnold was also part of this country's history, as is John Walker Lindh. Would you endorse naming schools after them, or erecting statues for them? Of course not. Why? Because they are known for betraying this country. Furthermore, by what standard are confederates "great people?" Is it possible to be a great person while betraying your country and taking up arms against Americans? If it's possible to be a great person while betraying your country, what makes Omar, et al (coincidentally all not white), so worthy of such immediate revulsion and expulsion while the Confederates and their sympathizers (overwhelmingly white) are not? I thought anti American sentiment and actions are to be reviled irrespective of race.
I'm not focusing so much on the racist part of the confederate motivation for the purposes of this discussion, but their express statement that their motivations are antithetical to the U.S. Constitution. I'm talking the degree of disloyalty to this country it takes to be willing to renounce your American citizenship after being born here and take up arms against this country-something AOC, Omar, et al never did. I'm not talking about how racially offensive the confederate flag is, but how that flag represents a betrayal of traditional understandings of patriotism and loyalty of country.
It's a different time now than it was during the Civil war. But if that is the basis of the disparate treatment between these two groups, tell me, how has disloyalty to country somehow evolved from being more tolerable then than it is now? If the Confederates themselves can somehow be excused for disloyalty to this country due to them being a product of their times, how can their contemporary apologists (again overwhelmingly white) somehow be excused, since you have the benefit of modern hindsight?
Yet race plays NO factor whatsoever in the disparate responses to the same dynamic?
I also find the argument that because Trump made no express, specific reference to race that the sentiments were not racist to be dubious. If a person who hates the Jaguars references "the only NFL team in Florida to not reach a Super Bowl," it doesn't take a rocket scientist to discern they are talking specifically about the Jaguars. Similarly, a burning cross in a front yard makes no express reference to race, but without question it is an abhorrent expression of anti black sentiment. This "Simon Says" standard you want to make a requirement to confirm racist sentiment does not comport with reality.
(07-18-2019, 04:21 PM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 03:54 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]He didn't say it to any white people, though.
I have heard people say, in a very racist way, "They should all go back to Africa" or "We should send them all back to Africa." It's very common thing to say among racists. I grew up knowing quite a few of them. They usually tossed in the N-word when they said it. That's why his remark is considered racist. It has been a very common thing for racists to say.
Now, is Trump a racist? Or is he just a demagogue fanning the flames to fire up his base? Or is he just an idiot who doesn't understand what he's saying? Or is he all three of those? One thing for sure- that guy should not be President of the United States.
Last night, at a Trump rally, the crowd started chanting "Send her back! Send her back!" Trump stood up there looking real pleased with himself. Sort of reminded me of Mussolini. Now this morning, Trump is saying he didn't like that chant. So maybe, just maybe, his friends have finally gotten through to him that he has gone way over the line.
I know we’re talking about Trump, but I have to I admit I have told someone to go back to their country if they didn’t like it here. Before I’m labeled a racist, it was a white British girl/woman [BLEEP] about the US and it was shortly after 9/11. Is that ok? I assume so because I was called into HR and they didn’t do anything. They did ask me to apologize, but I refused. They insisted, so I said I’d apologize for hurting her feelings but not for what I said. They agreed. I don’t regret saying what I said one bit. Coming over here for a better life then [BLEEP] about the country giving it to you. Smh.
How is that any different from Confederates who were born here and took up arms against this country? How is that any less repugnant than you found the Brit to be?
(07-18-2019, 05:06 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 04:21 PM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ]I know we’re talking about Trump, but I have to I admit I have told someone to go back to their country if they didn’t like it here. Before I’m labeled a racist, it was a white British girl/woman [BLEEP] about the US and it was shortly after 9/11. Is that ok? I assume so because I was called into HR and they didn’t do anything. They did ask me to apologize, but I refused. They insisted, so I said I’d apologize for hurting her feelings but not for what I said. They agreed. I don’t regret saying what I said one bit. Coming over here for a better life then [BLEEP] about the country giving it to you. Smh.
How is that any different from Confederates who were born here and took up arms against this country? How is that any less repugnant than you found the Brit to be?
Keeping it super simple here. The Brit had only been in the US for a year. She came by choice. And to be fair, the confederates(born here in your words) did want to leave. They just wanted the land too.
Not to mention things were a tad bit different 160 years ago. They tried to secede only 84 years after the country was formed. It was the “thing to do”.
And you’re all over the place with this confederate thing. First you’re talking about the “racist flag” then not talking about it. I’m assuming you live in Hilliard, Fl or something. I don’t see all these confederate flags you’re seeing. Don’t let a few nuts ruin things for you. It comes to a point where you’re the one that actually comes off as the racist, to be honest.
(07-18-2019, 05:23 PM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 05:06 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]How is that any different from Confederates who were born here and took up arms against this country? How is that any less repugnant than you found the Brit to be?
1. Keeping it super simple here. The Brit had only been in the US for a year. She came by choice. And to be fair, the confederates(born here in your words) did want to leave. They just wanted the land too.
2. Not to mention things were a tad bit different 160 years ago. They tried to secede only 84 years after the country was formed. It was the “thing to do”.
3. And you’re all over the place with this confederate thing. First you’re talking about the “racist flag” then not talking about it. I’m assuming you live in Hilliard, Fl or something. I don’t see all these confederate flags you’re seeing. Don’t let a few nuts ruin things for you. It comes to a point where you’re the one that actually comes off as the racist, to be honest.
1. So couldn't it be argued they were more wrong having lived in the country and reaped its benefits for years, only to betray it later?
2. Are you suggesting that somehow this country wasn't as great then as it is now, which justified Southern secession?
3. Do you somehow suggest Secession carried with it only one implication-that of race? Do you suggest that it has NO BEARING whatsoever to loyalty to country?!? An interesting take. I shifted focus away from the racist nature of the flag to expose as pretext the argument Trump's telling them to leave had nothing to do with race by taking the stated reason for the chants (disloyalty to this country) and comparing that to a far more damaging manifestation of disloyalty to country, and noting the disparate results. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
As for me being perceived as racist, so be it. These days, the Bizarro world created by Fox news invariably results in the person complaining about racism being labeled as racist.
(07-18-2019, 05:34 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 05:23 PM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ]1. Keeping it super simple here. The Brit had only been in the US for a year. She came by choice. And to be fair, the confederates(born here in your words) did want to leave. They just wanted the land too.
2. Not to mention things were a tad bit different 160 years ago. They tried to secede only 84 years after the country was formed. It was the “thing to do”.
3. And you’re all over the place with this confederate thing. First you’re talking about the “racist flag” then not talking about it. I’m assuming you live in Hilliard, Fl or something. I don’t see all these confederate flags you’re seeing. Don’t let a few nuts ruin things for you. It comes to a point where you’re the one that actually comes off as the racist, to be honest.
1. So couldn't it be argued they were more wrong having lived in the country and reaped its benefits for years, only to betray it later?
2. Are you suggesting that somehow this country wasn't as great then as it is now, which justified Southern secession?
3. Do you somehow suggest Secession carried with it only one implication-that of race? Do you suggest that it has NO BEARING whatsoever to loyalty to country?!? An interesting take. I shifted focus away from the racist nature of the flag to expose as pretext the argument Trump's telling them to leave had nothing to do with race by taking the stated reason for the chants (disloyalty to this country) and comparing that to a far more damaging manifestation of disloyalty to country, and noting the disparate results. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
As for me being perceived as racist, so be it. These days, the Bizarro world created by Fox news invariably results in the person complaining about racism being labeled as racist.
1. Sure. There’s an argument that can be made. But an argument can be made by any opposing view.
2. No.
3. We all know the factors involved in the secession. It wasn’t just because of slavery (or race, I’m confused since there were white slaves) What I meant was the fact that the country was founded upon Americans having enough of England only 2 generations prior is much different than people coming over here 6+ generations afterwards [BLEEP] about it. Back then they literally fought the [BLEEP] out. Some of those soldiers fathers or grandfathers fought to break free from England. In the 1800’s they still settled things with duels occasionally. Times have changed. For the better. Let’s move on and keep making it better. But it takes two! Don’t [BLEEP] about the problem, show us the solution.
4. Yeah, that was thrown in not just because I believe it but to let you realize how others feels when incorrectly labeled as such.
(07-18-2019, 06:19 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.businessinsider.com/republic...CTIhGC5gqE
It's also "un-American" for a domestic terrorist group that calls themselves ANTIFA to brutally beat a conservative journalist named Andy Ngo and put him in the hospital with a brain bleed and lifetime psychological damage.
At least what offends you are just words.
LMAO.
Reverse Racism at it's Finest.
NH3...
(07-18-2019, 06:27 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 06:19 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.businessinsider.com/republic...CTIhGC5gqE
It's also "un-American" for a domestic terrorist group that calls themselves ANTIFA to brutally beat a conservative journalist named Andy Ngo and put him in the hospital with a brain bleed and lifetime psychological damage.
At least what offends you are just words.
Physical battery upon a member of the media for the sake of being media-even conservative media-is reprehensible and betrays the first amendment. I have often read conservative columnists, even though I almost always end up disagreeing with them.
Thus said, one should expect more from a President of the United States than an unruly mob. If mob mentality is the minimum standard a president should exceed, encouraging mob rule as Trump has done here and other times here does not rise to that standard-at most only marginally so. The fact criticism of Trump on this point is not the sole province of the left speaks volumes.
(07-18-2019, 06:47 PM)NH3 Wrote: [ -> ]LMAO.
Reverse Racism at it's Finest.
NH3...
I assume this is in regards to my reply to Bullseye. Care to elaborate? Or is racism a one way street with only one victim and one assailant?
I am too tired and have to get up early in the morning to address the many points raised here. I'm just going to say this and leave this here.
(07-18-2019, 07:32 PM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 06:47 PM)NH3 Wrote: [ -> ]LMAO.
Reverse Racism at it's Finest.
NH3...
I assume this is in regards to my reply to Bullseye. Care to elaborate? Or is racism a one way street with only one victim and one assailant?
I believe he is referring to my posts, not yours.
(07-18-2019, 08:13 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (07-18-2019, 07:32 PM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ]I assume this is in regards to my reply to Bullseye. Care to elaborate? Or is racism a one way street with only one victim and one assailant?
I believe he is referring to my posts, not yours.
Oh Lordy! I can’t keep up. I thought he was black and talking about my post. My apologies if I’m wrong on either of those. Count me in with JIB. Good night, love you all. Sleep tight.
Ummm...
The south seceded because not one Southern state voted for Lincoln and they felt like they weren't involved in the United States.
That's actually in the Lincoln Museum... that's literally what they say.
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