Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(10-17-2019, 10:36 AM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]I think this is a good assessment. I have suggested something similar before.

It's not that Ramsey disrespected players, it's that he had a certain gravitas that influenced other players. Instead of the prevailing attitude being one towards collective growth, the attitude was one of individual gain. I think Ramsey wanted to see the team do well, but in his mind, he has to look out for number one. That means playing how he plays, and demanding money and respect. If other players adopt that attitude, it changes the culture. If on the other hand, you contrast that with a Poz or Cambell approach, you see people focused on the game and the team. Campbell is literally looking for gatorade to take to Fournette on breaks. He knows the offense needs to do well. He knows the young guys needs to do well. You're not going to get every player on the team to think like that, but if the culture is closer to the latter than the former, you will have better team dynamics.

Truth be told, it's my opinion that Ramsey has contributed to the ineffectiveness of the defense. There's been multiple reports of him refusing to play zone, which I think has created trust issues and encouraged everyone to try to do more than they should to compensate. I am curious if the team will gel more without him here. If they just do their jobs and think as a unit, I think our defense will improve. It may not be elite, but it should be solid. I'd like to try to replace Herndon, though. I'd be open to trading one of those first round picks for a good CB.

Great post, I completely agree.

The funny thing is that, even in '17 when the good times were rolling, many of us probably had a sneaking suspicion that there was something unstable about the culture around the team. Nobody mentioned it much because we were rightly enjoying the success, but it was clear that the team was a bit too brash and bold. It was all very enjoyable when things were going well, but there was the nagging thought that the atmosphere could turn a bit negative if things started to go wrong, and that's exactly what happened. The last two years of lack of discipline and players seeming disconnected from the team have shown that.

It remains to be seen how much this will really be a turning point in turns of culture, but they should absolutely try to make it a point of emphasis. We need to see Campbell be the unquestioned leader of this defense now.

(10-17-2019, 01:25 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:20 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]It certainly looks like you are making an assumption because you're upset that they got rid of a malcontent.

It seemed as if there was very little negotiation, regardless of whose 'side' you are on.

That's not the reason.

The reason is because this FO isn't rewarding the players who actually deserve the extensions. Bortles, Cann, Jack, Lee..... None of those guys deserved the extension but they got one before arguably our best young defender (Yan).

If history repeats itself with this FO, then I'm sure they will botch the Ngakoue one just like the rest.

Lee and Cann were both free agents when they were resigned. Jack resigned in the last year of his rookie deal, and Yannick is also negotiating in the same time frame. Bortles was resigned to a middle of the road short term extension. These contracts aren't really making the point you think they are.

(10-17-2019, 01:25 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:20 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]It certainly looks like you are making an assumption because you're upset that they got rid of a malcontent.

It seemed as if there was very little negotiation, regardless of whose 'side' you are on.

That's not the reason.

The reason is because this FO isn't rewarding the players who actually deserve the extensions. Bortles, Cann, Jack, Lee..... None of those guys deserved the extension but they got one before arguably our best young defender (Yan).

If history repeats itself with this FO, then I'm sure they will botch the Ngakoue one just like the rest.

In your opinion they didn't deserve one (even though all of these situations aren't at all the same).  In my opinion it should show him that we are willing to sign (what we consider) our core players.

(10-17-2019, 01:51 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:25 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]That's not the reason.

The reason is because this FO isn't rewarding the players who actually deserve the extensions. Bortles, Cann, Jack, Lee..... None of those guys deserved the extension but they got one before arguably our best young defender (Yan).

If history repeats itself with this FO, then I'm sure they will botch the Ngakoue one just like the rest.

In your opinion they didn't deserve one (even though all of these situations aren't at all the same).  In my opinion it should show him that we are willing to sign (what we consider) our core players.

The Jags have consistently shown to make a more than fair offer.
I have no doubt they offered Yan something reasonable. But Yan wanted to bet on himself and squeeze a little bit more from the Jags.
I see nothing wrong with what either is doing. To blame either at this point is kinda foolish.

(10-17-2019, 01:51 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:25 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]That's not the reason.

The reason is because this FO isn't rewarding the players who actually deserve the extensions. Bortles, Cann, Jack, Lee..... None of those guys deserved the extension but they got one before arguably our best young defender (Yan).

If history repeats itself with this FO, then I'm sure they will botch the Ngakoue one just like the rest.

In your opinion they didn't deserve one (even though all of these situations aren't at all the same).  In my opinion it should show him that we are willing to sign (what we consider) our core players.

And this is the issue. They are believing the wrong guys are the core players.

Yan should have been one of the first ones to get a new contract considering he plays a premium position and the price tag for a DE is only going to go up the longer you wait. What would be top 3 money today may only be top 12 money in 2 years.

(10-17-2019, 01:19 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:18 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]Sure it is...

We know they offered him a contract - he didn't accept it.

That's the undisputed facts.

They tangoed and didn't like the tune that was playing. They will address it again in the offseason.

So you're just assuming the terms of the contract offered were fair and reasonable?

Yes. 

I think that’s a fair assumption based on recent contract extensions signed by Jack, Wilson, Cann, Lee, Hurns, Smith, and Linder. The argument could be made that all of those extensions were overly generous in terms of monies paid.

(10-17-2019, 01:56 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:51 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]In your opinion they didn't deserve one (even though all of these situations aren't at all the same).  In my opinion it should show him that we are willing to sign (what we consider) our core players.

And this is the issue. They are believing the wrong guys are the core players.

Yan should have been one of the first ones to get a new contract considering he plays a premium position and the price tag for a DE is only going to go up the longer you wait. What would be top 3 money today may only be top 12 money in 2 years.

No it isn't the issue.  They tried to sign him.  He obviously wanted more or something different.  So are you just suggesting they just automatically cave to any players or agents demands?

(10-17-2019, 09:55 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting paragraph from Sexton today in his portion of the "quick thoughts" column. 

3.Culture cannot be overstated. In the days that followed Ramsey’s childish outburst in Houston, I was told repeatedly that the Jaguars didn’t have a bad locker room as much as a bad culture. If the Ramsey saga teaches us anything it’s that character builds culture – and a few of the Jaguars best players were culture killers. Ramsey was always “me first.” Despite all the hype around linebacker Telvin Smith, he showed us he wasn’t the high-character leader that linebacker Paul Posluszny was before him. Philadelphia has a great culture; New England has a culture that always puts team before individual and Baltimore has long had a high standard in its locker room. The Jaguars have a lot of high character, good culture guys but they were drowned out at times by the flamboyant, quotable, followable, shareable antics of guys like Ramsey, Smith – and last year, running back Leonard Fournette. The removal of Ramsey and Smith – and Fournette’s apparent conversion – should help clean up a locker room that wasn’t cleaning up after itself. That’s the end goal: a locker room where the players set the standard of how Jaguars football is played.

I usually don't really watch or listen to the "Drive Time" podcast from jaguars.com, but after watching yesterday's and today's episodes it puts a lot of things in perspective.  I trust the opinions of Ashlyn Sullivan, Bryan Sexton and John Oesher since they are inside of the facility and see/hear much more than most any other media outlet.  Sexton seems to be the most outspoken about it especially now after the recent trade.

Speaking of culture, it would be nice if this franchise could wipe themselves of clean of people like Sexton and bring in some new blood.

(10-17-2019, 02:00 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:56 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]And this is the issue. They are believing the wrong guys are the core players.

Yan should have been one of the first ones to get a new contract considering he plays a premium position and the price tag for a DE is only going to go up the longer you wait. What would be top 3 money today may only be top 12 money in 2 years.

No it isn't the issue.  They tried to sign him.  He obviously wanted more or something different.  So are you just suggesting they just automatically cave to any players or agents demands?

This man gets it!

The team is bad if they don’t capitulate to player demands. They’re harsh, mean, and Scrooge-like.

this team has a history of offering good and generous contracts, regardless of The Quitter’s desire to cut in line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

(10-17-2019, 02:17 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of culture, it would be nice if this franchise could wipe themselves of clean of people like Sexton and bring in some new blood.

Exactly wrong. Love Sexton. But then I’m a Coughlin, Boselli, Lageman guy, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(10-17-2019, 12:58 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 12:50 PM)Perkolater Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe if he wasn't a problem in the locker room and didn't go rogue on the field so often he would have gotten that contract.

When has Ngakoue been anything other than professional here?  Where is his new deal,?

(10-17-2019, 01:04 PM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 12:58 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]When has Ngakoue been anything other than professional here?  Where is his new deal,?

Wasn't he "speculated" to have gotten a deal that would have put him in the top 3 among DE in the league? Is Yan a top 3 DE? Is he playing like one so far? He had a chance to take a deal and he said no.

^^^^^^^This

(10-17-2019, 12:39 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 12:37 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]FSU really does have a garbage program doesn't it? Seems like all their players are all about Me-First. True Jimbo gems.

They used to have a history of producing upstanding men like Edgar Bennett and Warrick Dunn. 

They’ve fallen far from that bar at present.

Old guy Bobby Bowden who was considered out of it and not in touch with young men vs. Offensive Flashy genius Jimbo.

Old guy hard guy TC considered out of it and not in touch with the modern professional athlete.....   hmmm  I guess not respecting your elders does lead to some problems.  - Said old guy me that never thought he would be old.

(10-17-2019, 12:56 PM)JaguarJosh05 Wrote: [ -> ]Players don't care about winning championships or their team at the end of the day unless they're the Patriots. It's all about that guaranteed $$ and how well the team happens to be doing. We won with him and without him already this season, we were in the midst of a tough divisional battle and Ramsey quit on his team in the middle of the season.... remember Vontae Davis retiring at halftime? It's about that bad. If he was so concerned about his contract and wanted to be a sideshow he should have done it in the offseason.

He quit on a touch down pass where he was in position to stop the play midfield during the KC Game.  Hindsight confirmed my uneasy feeling when he "took" a misstep towards the receiver aka didn't attempt a tackle.

I'm not making believe that the team is going to go on some magical run or something.  Feels a bit like Andre Rison departure.  But when you look at it, he got to win a superbowl.

I believe everyone keeps getting caught up in speculation. We can believe and think what we want overall until the front office or team comes out and say what it was. But based on what we have been since Caldwell and Khan have been here, 2017 and to where we are now. There is nothing that makes us look like an absolute contender right now.

We have lost lots of key players where it be veterans our young star receiver and even a once every 10 year elite talent start who was producing on the field and gotten us national media attention.

You can try to blame it on the players but if you look at the common issue and get out of your feeling we see where the problem is. The front office keeps making mistakes and try to cover it up blaming on different things.

I am a ride or die Jags fan but I can't continue act blind to the fact, the Front office is messing up, we need something different. Don't about Ramsey is a headcase or Diva, he did what he was supposed to do and that was be a good football player. The players who are ready to leave aee giving up on the front office not the city or the fans. They don't want to spend their careers with coaches, owners and gms who keep [BLEEP] up moving in the wrong direction.

We really could have a Super Bowl victory right now if it wasn't for coaching. You think the players don't see the dumb [BLEEP] decision and calls that are being made? Would you stay in something where leadership continues make things worse and doesn't take opinions from any of the people in the field, while still getting the same results. We should be mad at Caldwell and Khan and that is it

He quit on his team.

(10-17-2019, 07:02 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]He quit on his team.

+1

And when you watch the long touchdown against KC, he didn't wait till now to quit on the team either.

(10-17-2019, 07:22 PM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 07:02 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]He quit on his team.

+1

And when you watch the long touchdown against KC, he didn't wait till now to quit on the team either.

The apologists can make every excuse they want.  Quitting on your team is unforgivable.  Ramsey has one team...himself.

(10-17-2019, 06:59 PM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ]I believe everyone keeps getting caught up in speculation.  We can believe and think what we want overall until the front office or team comes out and say what it was. But based on what we have been since Caldwell and Khan have been here, 2017 and to where we are now. There is nothing that makes us look like an absolute contender right now.

We have lost lots of key players where it be veterans our young star receiver and even a once every 10 year elite talent start who was producing on the field and gotten us national media attention.

You can try to blame it on the players but if you look at the common issue and get out of your feeling we see where the problem is. The front office keeps making mistakes and try to cover it up blaming on different things.

I am a ride or die Jags fan but I can't continue act blind to the fact, the Front office is messing up, we need something different. Don't about Ramsey is a headcase or Diva, he did what he was supposed to do and that was be a good football player. The players who are ready to leave aee giving up on the front office not the city or the fans. They don't want to spend their careers with coaches, owners and gms who keep [BLEEP] up moving in the wrong direction.

We really could have a Super Bowl victory right now if it wasn't for coaching. You think the players don't see the dumb [BLEEP] decision and calls that are being made? Would you stay in something where leadership continues make things worse and doesn't take opinions from any of the people in the field, while still getting the same results. We should be mad at Caldwell and Khan and that is it

Pretty sure the house will be cleaned out with a poor season. So you don't have to worry  too much longer.

(10-17-2019, 07:02 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]He quit on his team.

...and did not possess the testicular fortitude to just say I quit. He faked injury and used the birth of his child as excuses to cover for his quit.

(10-17-2019, 01:20 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:12 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]So if we don't know the details, how do we know which of the two didn't tango?

It certainly looks like you are making an assumption because you're upset that they got rid of a malcontent.

It seemed as if there was very little negotiation, regardless of whose 'side' you are on.

I have made no such assumption, and my point in this portion of the thread has nothing to do with the Ramsey trade.  I was pushing for the team to sign Ngakoue before Ramsey made a peep about being traded.

Go back over the thread.

Someone made the assertion that Ramsey could have gotten the deal he wanted if he acted with professionalism.

In response, I asked about Nagakoue's deal, because he has been a professional since he's been here, and under the rationale of the person who made the assertion referenced above,  Ngakoue should already have his new deal.

Almost in unison, your side said "it takes two to tango,"" which is an odd statement to make if you believe both sides negotiated in good faith.

So the first assumption made was on your side of this, namely that one of the parties did not negotiate in good faith, as opposed to the very real possibility that both sides negotiated in good faith and simply have yet to reach a deal. 

So who didn't act in good faith?  Who didn't want to tango?

Considering that everyone on your side of the debate has defended the front office in all of these situations, it's quite reasonable to think you guys are defending the front office on this point.  But perhaps I am amiss here, so let's get clarification.

When your side types "it takes two to tango," in response to a question as to why Ngakoue has not gotten a new deal despite being a professional his entire time here, who did not tango here?  Which party is not negotiating in good taith?

If you believe the Jaguars did not negotiate in good faith with Ngakoue, (either alone or in conjunction with Ngakoue) why do you assail my point here?  Why definitively assert Ngakoue (or Ramsey) acting like a professional would have netted either player a new contract if you believe the Jaguars did not negotiate in good faith with an individual most believe has acted professionally?

If you believe Ngakoue did not act in good faith, what is the basis for this belief?  Why would a person who has been a professional his entire career suddenly act in contrast to that standard of behavior or ethics now?  What do you have to support your assertion?