Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(10-17-2019, 07:31 PM)Rico Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 07:22 PM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]+1

And when you watch the long touchdown against KC, he didn't wait till now to quit on the team either.

The apologists can make every excuse they want.  Quitting on your team is unforgivable.  Ramsey has one team...himself.

Correct, the Narcicist only cares about himself.

(10-17-2019, 01:04 PM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 12:58 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]When has Ngakoue been anything other than professional here?  Where is his new deal,?

Wasn't he "speculated" to have gotten a deal that would have put him in the top 3 among DE in the league? Is Yan a top 3 DE? Is he playing like one so far? He had a chance to take a deal and he said no.

So now we've gone from being professional to signing a deal that wouldn't overpay him?

Okay.  

Brandon Linder signed a five year extension that made him the highest paid C in NFL history at the time it was signed.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...-extension

Was Brandon Linder the best C in NFL history at the time he signed the deal?  Is he now?  Was he ever?  Are any of you on record objecting to the Linder deal?

So if Ngakoue has met the acceptable standards of professionalism, and the team has a proven history of overpaying players with little to no objection from those of you trying to explain away the lack of a deal for Ngakoue, why the double standard?

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(10-17-2019, 01:10 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:04 PM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ]Wasn't he "speculated" to have gotten a deal that would have put him in the top 3 among DE in the league? Is Yan a top 3 DE? Is he playing like one so far? He had a chance to take a deal and he said no.

With apologies to those who have typed or read this 14 times, the deal offered him was reportedly a three year deal with a two year out and he wanted a long term deal, which is a common ask at his age and production.

Thank you.

Given his age, production and professionalism, if anyone has earned a longer term deal, it's Ngakoue.

(10-17-2019, 01:11 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:09 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]So why's it presumed Ngakoue didn't want to tango?

The tram knew he was a professional.  The tram knew he is productive when healthy and has been fairly durable.  The team knows he is in the last year of his deal.

The team has no problems throwing money at free agents from other clubs, having less first hand knowledge of their work ethic, attitude, etc., than they have about Yan.

They tried.. he said no.

...

Pretty simple

Simple if you completely omit the details of the negotiation, what is being offered, what is reasonable for him to expect.

But that is some pretty important information you are omitting from the analysis.

If Ngakoue asked for a 20 year deal for $50 million a year guaranteed, with escalators allowing for inflation, etc., then it would make absolute sense for the team to not accept that offer.

Conversely, if the team offered a 1 year, minimum wage deal, he would be right to reject the deal.

Based upon what has been speculated in the media about what the Jaguars offered, why restrict the deal to 3 years given his age, injury history, production, and professionalism?  Was Linder THAT much better than Ngakoue to warrant a five year extension making him the highest paid player at the position in history, while Ngakoue was offered 3?

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(10-17-2019, 01:17 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:11 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]They tried.. he said no.

...

Pretty simple

It's not simple if we don't know what he said no to. 

...

And we don't.

This.

(10-17-2019, 01:21 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:19 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]So you're just assuming the terms of the contract offered were fair and reasonable?

Fair and reasonable is all in the eye of the beholder.

Obviously Yan thought he was worth more than they were offering and the Jags didn't want to budge because technically they didn't have to.

So we just gotta wait for the offseason. Maybe Yan was so insulted he decided he was just going to finish his rookie deal and go to free agency.

So now we've gone from acting like a professional, to acting like a professional and not being overpaid, to acting like a professional, not being overpaid, and only when they have to?

Troubling on any number of levels.  If he exemplifies the degree of professionalism we want in our players, why not reward him for it?  If the team wants to establish a team first mindset among the players, why not reward those who exemplify that and encourage it?

Bortles certainly didn't have to be given his extension.  The Jaguars could have simply exercised the 5th year option and waited another year to see if he was worth re-signing to a new deal.  But this same organization gave him the money.

Ngakoue has certainly been more productive, consistent, and professional a player than Bortles has.

Where is Ngakoue's deal?

(10-17-2019, 01:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:25 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]That's not the reason.

The reason is because this FO isn't rewarding the players who actually deserve the extensions. Bortles, Cann, Jack, Lee..... None of those guys deserved the extension but they got one before arguably our best young defender (Yan).

If history repeats itself with this FO, then I'm sure they will botch the Ngakoue one just like the rest.

Lee and Cann were both free agents when they were resigned. Jack resigned in the last year of his rookie deal, and Yannick is also negotiating in the same time frame. Bortles was resigned to a middle of the road short term extension. These contracts aren't really making the point you think they are.

Bortles proves his point exactly (see prior post).  So does the Linder contract.  Ngakoue has been more consistent, productive and professional than Bortles was here, and Bortles got his extension.

Where's Yannick's extension? 

Ngakoue has been more durable and productive than Linder at a premium position vs. a lesser position.  He has at least made a Pro Bowl.  Linder has not,  and Linder got his lucrative extension that made him the highest paid C in league history.

Where's Yannick's extension?

Yannick certainly deserved a contract extension after last year, however, he was offered $19m/yr with $50m+ earned within the first two years of the contract.

That contract offer seemed fair for the product that Yannick produced on the field but he believed it wasn't good enough - whether it pertained to contract length or a difference of $1-2m/yr.

Yannick bet on himself and it's not panning out for him thus far for him - and that initial contract extension is looking like a possible over-pay (based on THIS years performance).

(10-17-2019, 08:45 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lee and Cann were both free agents when they were resigned. Jack resigned in the last year of his rookie deal, and Yannick is also negotiating in the same time frame. Bortles was resigned to a middle of the road short term extension. These contracts aren't really making the point you think they are.

Bortles proves his point exactly (see prior post).  So does the Linder contract.  Ngakoue has been more consistent, productive and professional than Bortles was here, and Bortles got his extension.

Where's Yannick's extension? 

Ngakoue has been more durable and productive than Linder at a premium position vs. a lesser position.  He has at least made a Pro Bowl.  Linder has not,  and Linder got his lucrative extension that made him the highest paid C in league history.

Where's Yannick's extension?

Bortles got his extension going in to his last year of his rookie contract (they declined the option as you recall), exactly where Yannick was negotiating. Linder got his extension going into the last year of his rookie contract, exactly where Yannick was negotiation. Cann and Lee were both resigned after their final contract year. I'm still not seeing how this is some disrespect to Yannick that he didn't sign the contract offered; he's been treated like every other guy the FO wanted to keep and at the exact same time. They simply didn't come to terms and both are treating it as would be expected without any indication that they won't resume talks at some point. Yan's not grousing in the locker room, he's certainly not buffalo-ing a bull [BLEEP] injury like the quitter did, and he's playing as hard as he always has; the FO won't forget that at the contract table I'm sure.

(10-17-2019, 08:51 PM)enigma Wrote: [ -> ]Yannick certainly deserved a contract extension after last year, however, he was offered $19m/yr with $50m+ earned within the first two years of the contract.

That contract offer seemed fair for the product that Yannick produced on the field but he believed it wasn't good enough - whether it pertained to contract length or a difference of $1-2m/yr.

Yannick bet on himself and it's not panning out for him thus far for him - and that initial contract extension is looking like a possible over-pay (based on THIS years performance).

Didn't everyone just spend like 3 pages refuting all of the different rumors/leaks? We have no clue what was really offered.

I’m not sure any refuting took place. But there was a lot of disputing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yannick wanted to be paid a year early. He had less leverage doing it that way. He was offered a less lucrative contract than he hoped for. He turned it down, essentially betting on himself, that his 4th year performance would get him the contract he desired, either from the Jags or from another team. There's still 10 games to play, so we don't know if it was a good bet. Here's hoping Yan gets 15 sacks and a big contract next year.

If you take issue with the Linder and Bortles deals, it's also possible the front office learned a little prudence as well.

(10-17-2019, 10:47 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]If you take issue with the Linder and Bortles deals, it's also possible the front office learned a little prudence as well.

BINGO

(10-17-2019, 12:08 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]"Culture"

such an overplayed word.

we were told the change happened when we got rid of Gus and got rid of the "losing culture"
And everyone bought it when we went 10-6

Now the culture still needs changing, or changing again?

insert eye roll here

I'm kind of with you.  I think intangibles are overrated.  Winning teams are always said to have a great culture.  Losing teams are always said to have a bad culture. 

When we were 10-6, everyone said we had a great team culture.  What's changed?  

Coaches always come in and say they're going to change the team culture.  What the hell does that even mean?  Then they say, "We need to hold players accountable."  What the heck does that mean?  If they're not being held accountable currently, does that mean they just do whatever they want?  Surely that's not the case.

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(10-17-2019, 01:00 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 12:53 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Remember how winning the last game against Indy in 2011 was supposed to instill a winning culture?

Pffft.

The only thing that instills a winning culture is winning. The only way to win is to have good talent and good coaching.

A team can be full of [BLEEP], but if they win every week, no one cares they are [BLEEP].
It can be full of good guys (the Gene Smith approach) and no one gives a crap they are good guys if you're losing.

That's the simplest way I can think of it.

This whole "culture" thing is a weird talking point imo. Buzz words that mean jack pappy

Right again.  Exactly what I would say.

(10-17-2019, 08:45 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lee and Cann were both free agents when they were resigned. Jack resigned in the last year of his rookie deal, and Yannick is also negotiating in the same time frame. Bortles was resigned to a middle of the road short term extension. These contracts aren't really making the point you think they are.

Bortles proves his point exactly (see prior post).  So does the Linder contract.  Ngakoue has been more consistent, productive and professional than Bortles was here, and Bortles got his extension.

Where's Yannick's extension? 

Ngakoue has been more durable and productive than Linder at a premium position vs. a lesser position.  He has at least made a Pro Bowl.  Linder has not,  and Linder got his lucrative extension that made him the highest paid C in league history.

Where's Yannick's extension?

I don't understand what point you are making.  

Are you saying Yannick should have an extension by now?   As you and everyone else have stated many times, we don't know what was offered or what Yannick was asking for.  There was some negotiation, but the two sides could not agree.  This is quite common.  

So why the question?  You're taking a lot of trouble making some apparently very important point here, but at the same time, everyone in the thread is admitting we have no facts to support any side of this argument.

(10-17-2019, 10:47 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]If you take issue with the Linder and Bortles deals, it's also possible the front office learned a little prudence as well.

That is possible, though Khan later indicated he was willing to re-sign Ramsey now as opposed to next year.

But what message does that send?

That offensive players have more value to the team than defensive players?

That guys who never made All Pro or Pro Bowl are valued over guys who have?

That durable players are valued less than injury prone players?

There are any number of messages the team could unwittingly convey with this change, if, in fact they are learning the lessons from the Linder and Bortles deals.

(10-17-2019, 08:45 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 01:39 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lee and Cann were both free agents when they were resigned. Jack resigned in the last year of his rookie deal, and Yannick is also negotiating in the same time frame. Bortles was resigned to a middle of the road short term extension. These contracts aren't really making the point you think they are.

Bortles proves his point exactly (see prior post).  So does the Linder contract.  Ngakoue has been more consistent, productive and professional than Bortles was here, and Bortles got his extension.

Where's Yannick's extension? 

Ngakoue has been more durable and productive than Linder at a premium position vs. a lesser position.  He has at least made a Pro Bowl.  Linder has not,  and Linder got his lucrative extension that made him the highest paid C in league history.

Where's Yannick's extension?

It doesn't make sense to follow up one mistake (Bortles' contract) with another (overpaying for what is basically a pass rush specialist who's marginal against the run and who's not even playing as well as he was in 2017).  He's a hard worker, he's professional and I think they should extend him but it's got be at a reasonable rate, paying whatever the player/agent demands is a sure way to wreck the salary cap.

(10-18-2019, 06:30 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 08:45 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Bortles proves his point exactly (see prior post).  So does the Linder contract.  Ngakoue has been more consistent, productive and professional than Bortles was here, and Bortles got his extension.

Where's Yannick's extension? 

Ngakoue has been more durable and productive than Linder at a premium position vs. a lesser position.  He has at least made a Pro Bowl.  Linder has not,  and Linder got his lucrative extension that made him the highest paid C in league history.

Where's Yannick's extension?

I don't understand what point you are making.  

Are you saying Yannick should have an extension by now?   As you and everyone else have stated many times, we don't what was offered or what Yannick was asking for.  There was some negotiation, but the two sides could not agree.  This is quite common.  

So why the question?

One poster (Perkolater, IIRC) made the assertion that Ramsey would have had the deal he wanted if he acted professionally.

I pose the question, in part, to show it's not necessarily true that Ramsey would have gotten a deal even if he was a complete boy scout.

Ngakoue has been as close to a boy scout as you'd want and he doesn't have a deal.  Then people started offering any number of excuses as to why Ngakoue didn't get the new deal.

The point is the re-signings seem to have NOTHING to do with talent, production, merit or professionalism.

Lest I am being too obscure, or lest simply meeting the cap minimum (I am offering that possibility) in part drove the Linder re-signing, let's limit this inquiry to the draft class of 2016.  Draft position aside and the ramifications that come from those differences (salary of the players, # of years under the original rookie deal), the surrounding salary cap and team impacted the top of the 2016 draft class the same way at the same time.  By the time these guys contracts started becoming an issue, all of the surrounding circumstances were the same.  By then, the Jaguars added Calais Camobell, Malik Jackson, Dareus, Church, Gipson, and Bouye.  Then they added Norwell last year.

Of the three guys at the top of the 2016 draft, how would you list their importance to the team's playoff run?  Forget the anger you may feel at Ramsey for the moment and just look at their contributions as players since 2016 and to that playoff run.  If you had to list them 1-3 in order of importance, production, accolades for production, etc, how would you rank them?  If you had to rank them in terms of who could command the most in trade, how would you rank them?  We now know how much Ramsey commanded in trade.  If you had to guess, would either Ngakoue or Jack command more in trade than what Ramsey got back for us?  If not, who would get more in trade between Ngakoue and Jack?  Who started more games between 2016 and now?  Who got more league recognized accolades?

Yet of the three, who was the first and only one to get a new deal from the team?

Why?

When does productivity factor in favorably for Jaguars players when it comes to re-signing with the team?

I can see where being the most productive of the Gene Smith draft picks wouldn't be enough to get an extension from the team, although a do nothing like Tyson Alualu managed to get an extension from the team.

But if you listed the players in terms of productivity, the most productive guys didn't get their efforts rewarded with new deals, while those closer to the mediocre end of the spectrum did get the new deals.

If the team's main priority is winning, how can that possibly happen?  How could the priority possibly be anything other than keeping the best players here, the ones who did the most to contrubute to the team's winning?

(10-18-2019, 06:34 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-17-2019, 10:47 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]If you take issue with the Linder and Bortles deals, it's also possible the front office learned a little prudence as well.

That is possible, though Khan later indicated he was willing to re-sign Ramsey now as opposed to next year.

But what message does that send?

That offensive players have more value to the team than defensive players?

That guys who never made All Pro or Pro Bowl are valued over guys who have?

That durable players are valued less than injury prone players?

There are any number of messages the team could unwittingly convey with this change, if, in fact they are learning the lessons from the Linder and Bortles deals.

This team was a 3rd and country mile away from booking it's flight to it's first Superbowl. In fairness to Bortles, he played pretty damn good in his first three play-off starts. And maybe the front office thought he was turning the corner having tasted that much success and falling short. 

They swung. They missed. They also swung and missed with Brandon Linder so far. They did offer an extension to Yannick. He turned it down. They paid Telvin Smith the year before, he under performed and also quit on his team this year. Myles Jack was offered an extension. He [BLEEP] took it. 

What else does the Front Office have to do? They made their offers. They're either accepted or rejected. Again, it's still early. I still think they'll resign Ngakoue at some point. I also think it's likely Fournette is resigned. 

But the biggest message I took away from this Ramsey ordeal? 

Team first. Not players first. Show that you're a good teammate. Show that you're a high character guy in the locker room. Conduct yourself like a professional on and off the field and stop being a baby back [BLEEP] and maybe, just maybe, you'll get that green that you seek. 

When Ramsey takes a [BLEEP] on the Rams after his next 26 games are wrapped up it'll be the ultimate trade for this team. Jalen Ramsey is nothing more than a Cornerback version of T.O. Me, me, me & I, I, I. Guys like that don't stick around on teams for very long. Three years in Jacksonville. Maybe two years in Los Angeles. But he's destined to move again at some point the moment his baby back [BLEEP] [BLEEP] doesn't get his way. 

He spit in Khan's face. After he supported him several times publicly. That's a no-no in any Business.

(10-18-2019, 07:11 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]One poster (Perkolater, IIRC) made the assertion that Ramsey would have had the deal he wanted if he acted professionally.

I pose the question, in part, to show it's not necessarily true that Ramsey would have gotten a deal even if he was a complete boy scout.

Ngakoue has been as close to a boy scout as you'd want and he doesn't have a deal.  Then people started offering any number of excuses as to why Ngakoue didn't get the new deal.

The point is the re-signings seem to have NOTHING to do with talent, production, merit or professionalism.

[snip]

I understand that you're asking somewhat rhetorically but I think your assumptions are wrong. Ramsey probably would have gotten a new deal this off-season if he hadn't decided he didn't want to play for the Jags anymore regardless of circumstances. Khan said he was willing to make him the highest paid player at his position. Normally that's not something that an owner would say publicly due to negotiations but it did show where he was willing to go for a player of that caliber.

The Jags were and presumably still are willing to extend Ngakoue. We don't know for sure the details of the deal but the reported offer sounds more than fair for a player of his caliber. Ngakoue (or his agent) turned it down. You can't just force a player to sign.

So you have a case of the Jags willing to sign two players (one an all-pro talent who was not a boy scout) and another good player, but not as talented who was a boy scout. The fact that both players decided *not* to sign were choices they made, not the Jags.

(10-18-2019, 07:32 AM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-18-2019, 07:11 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]One poster (Perkolater, IIRC) made the assertion that Ramsey would have had the deal he wanted if he acted professionally.

I pose the question, in part, to show it's not necessarily true that Ramsey would have gotten a deal even if he was a complete boy scout.

Ngakoue has been as close to a boy scout as you'd want and he doesn't have a deal.  Then people started offering any number of excuses as to why Ngakoue didn't get the new deal.

The point is the re-signings seem to have NOTHING to do with talent, production, merit or professionalism.

[snip]

I understand that you're asking somewhat rhetorically but I think your assumptions are wrong. Ramsey probably would have gotten a new deal this off-season if he hadn't decided he didn't want to play for the Jags anymore regardless of circumstances. Khan said he was willing to make him the highest paid player at his position. Normally that's not something that an owner would say publicly due to negotiations but it did show where he was willing to go for a player of that caliber.

The Jags were and presumably still are willing to extend Ngakoue. We don't know for sure the details of the deal but the reported offer sounds more than fair for a player of his caliber. Ngakoue (or his agent) turned it down. You can't just force a player to sign.

So you have a case of the Jags willing to sign two players (one an all-pro talent who was not a boy scout) and another good player, but not as talented who was a boy scout. The fact that both players decided *not* to sign were choices they made, not the Jags.

People will still blame the FO.