(10-18-2019, 07:32 AM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 07:11 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]One poster (Perkolater, IIRC) made the assertion that Ramsey would have had the deal he wanted if he acted professionally.
I pose the question, in part, to show it's not necessarily true that Ramsey would have gotten a deal even if he was a complete boy scout.
Ngakoue has been as close to a boy scout as you'd want and he doesn't have a deal. Then people started offering any number of excuses as to why Ngakoue didn't get the new deal.
The point is the re-signings seem to have NOTHING to do with talent, production, merit or professionalism.
[snip]
I understand that you're asking somewhat rhetorically but I think your assumptions are wrong. Ramsey probably would have gotten a new deal this off-season if he hadn't decided he didn't want to play for the Jags anymore regardless of circumstances. Khan said he was willing to make him the highest paid player at his position. Normally that's not something that an owner would say publicly due to negotiations but it did show where he was willing to go for a player of that caliber.
The Jags were and presumably still are willing to extend Ngakoue. We don't know for sure the details of the deal but the reported offer sounds more than fair for a player of his caliber. Ngakoue (or his agent) turned it down. You can't just force a player to sign.
So you have a case of the Jags willing to sign two players (one an all-pro talent who was not a boy scout) and another good player, but not as talented who was a boy scout. The fact that both players decided *not* to sign were choices they made, not the Jags.
+1
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(10-18-2019, 07:12 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 06:34 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]That is possible, though Khan later indicated he was willing to re-sign Ramsey now as opposed to next year.
But what message does that send?
That offensive players have more value to the team than defensive players?
That guys who never made All Pro or Pro Bowl are valued over guys who have?
That durable players are valued less than injury prone players?
There are any number of messages the team could unwittingly convey with this change, if, in fact they are learning the lessons from the Linder and Bortles deals.
This team was a 3rd and country mile away from booking it's flight to it's first Superbowl. In fairness to Bortles, he played pretty damn good in his first three play-off starts. And maybe the front office thought he was turning the corner having tasted that much success and falling short.
They swung. They missed. They also swung and missed with Brandon Linder so far. They did offer an extension to Yannick. He turned it down. They paid Telvin Smith the year before, he under performed and also quit on his team this year. Myles Jack was offered an extension. He [BLEEP] took it.
What else does the Front Office have to do? They made their offers. They're either accepted or rejected. Again, it's still early. I still think they'll resign Ngakoue at some point. I also think it's likely Fournette is resigned.
But the biggest message I took away from this Ramsey ordeal?
Team first. Not players first. Show that you're a good teammate. Show that you're a high character guy in the locker room. Conduct yourself like a professional on and off the field and stop being a baby back [BLEEP] and maybe, just maybe, you'll get that green that you seek.
When Ramsey takes a [BLEEP] on the Rams after his next 26 games are wrapped up it'll be the ultimate trade for this team. Jalen Ramsey is nothing more than a Cornerback version of T.O. Me, me, me & I, I, I. Guys like that don't stick around on teams for very long. Three years in Jacksonville. Maybe two years in Los Angeles. But he's destined to move again at some point the moment his baby back [BLEEP] [BLEEP] doesn't get his way.
He spit in Khan's face. After he supported him several times publicly. That's a no-no in any Business.
(emphasis added)
Here's an idea: Retain the very best players...the ones who had the most to do with the winning.
The team first mindset is meaningless if you don't have players on the team that can translate that mindset into wins.
I'm pretty sure nobody on that 1995 team was accused to being a me first player. I'm fairly certain, players were doing everything they could to improve the fortunes of that team. Yet there is no way that team was going to come close to contending in 1995. Why?
They didn't have the talent to do so.
Conversely, all of the teams in the league saw, to some degree, the things Ramsey did to potentially alienate himself from the team. Yet virtually every team made preliminary inquiries, and several were reported to be serious suitors, including the Eagles, who just won the Super Bowl two years ago, and the Rams, who were just in the Super Bowl last year. I readily admit I have never worked in an NFL front office, but I tend to think teams that reach Super Bowls value talent and teamwork. Yet those teams did not hesitate to pursue Ramsey.
How do you explain that? Why is it that franchises that know how to reach the pinnacle stage of the NFL so aggressively pursued such a noxious individual? Even if they weren't in the locker room, they had to suspect that maybe Ramsey wasn't a team first player. He's the guy who plays zone only when he wants to, right? He's the guy who quit on his teammates, right? So why was he pursued by so many teams? Why were the Rams willing to trade so much for him?
It's funny that so many of his detractors call Ramsey "soft" when arguing either expressly or tacitly he isn't worth the headache.
But history has repeatedly shown that while those less successful franchises tend to somehow be prone to headaches, the successful franchises are willing to take an aspirin, take a chance on exceptional talent, and reap the benefits. The trrade market for Ramsey is indisputable proof of that.
(10-18-2019, 07:38 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 07:12 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]This team was a 3rd and country mile away from booking it's flight to it's first Superbowl. In fairness to Bortles, he played pretty damn good in his first three play-off starts. And maybe the front office thought he was turning the corner having tasted that much success and falling short.
They swung. They missed. They also swung and missed with Brandon Linder so far. They did offer an extension to Yannick. He turned it down. They paid Telvin Smith the year before, he under performed and also quit on his team this year. Myles Jack was offered an extension. He [BLEEP] took it.
What else does the Front Office have to do? They made their offers. They're either accepted or rejected. Again, it's still early. I still think they'll resign Ngakoue at some point. I also think it's likely Fournette is resigned.
But the biggest message I took away from this Ramsey ordeal?
Team first. Not players first. Show that you're a good teammate. Show that you're a high character guy in the locker room. Conduct yourself like a professional on and off the field and stop being a baby back [BLEEP] and maybe, just maybe, you'll get that green that you seek.
When Ramsey takes a [BLEEP] on the Rams after his next 26 games are wrapped up it'll be the ultimate trade for this team. Jalen Ramsey is nothing more than a Cornerback version of T.O. Me, me, me & I, I, I. Guys like that don't stick around on teams for very long. Three years in Jacksonville. Maybe two years in Los Angeles. But he's destined to move again at some point the moment his baby back [BLEEP] [BLEEP] doesn't get his way.
He spit in Khan's face. After he supported him several times publicly. That's a no-no in any Business.
(emphasis added)
Here's an idea: Retain the very best players...the ones who had the most to do with the winning.
The team first mindset is meaningless if you don't have players on the team that can translate that mindset into wins.
I'm pretty sure nobody on that 1995 team was accused to being a me first player. I'm fairly certain, players were doing everything they could to improve the fortunes of that team. Yet there is no way that team was going to come close to contending in 1995. Why?
They didn't have the talent to do so.
Conversely, all of the teams in the league saw, to some degree, the things Ramsey did to potentially alienate himself from the team. Yet virtually every team made preliminary inquiries, and several were reported to be serious suitors, including the Eagles, who just won the Super Bowl two years ago, and the Rams, who were just in the Super Bowl last year. I readily admit I have never worked in an NFL front office, but I tend to think teams that reach Super Bowls value talent and teamwork. Yet those teams did not hesitate to pursue Ramsey.
How do you explain that? Why is it that franchises that know how to reach the pinnacle stage of the NFL so aggressively pursued such a noxious individual? Even if they weren't in the locker room, they had to suspect that maybe Ramsey wasn't a team first player. He's the guy who plays zone only when he wants to, right? He's the guy who quit on his teammates, right? So why was he pursued by so many teams? Why were the Rams willing to trade so much for him?
It's funny that so many of his detractors call Ramsey "soft" when arguing either expressly or tacitly he isn't worth the headache.
But history has repeatedly shown that while those less successful franchises tend to somehow be prone to headaches, the successful franchises are willing to take an aspirin, take a chance on exceptional talent, and reap the benefits. The trrade market for Ramsey is indisputable proof of that.
Bullseye... you can't retain players that simply don't want to be here. Ask the Raiders how that worked out for them. Ask this front office how it worked out for them. Ask the Steelers how that worked out for them. You're being beyond unreasonable over a guy that was all about himself. The team first mindset is also meaningless if you have guys that don't want to be here.
There's 31 other teams in the NFL Bullseye. That's 31 different teams with a set of 31 different problems, wants & needs. All of those teams have different variables, cultures and ways of doing things. Of course a team would take a chance on Ramsey. Of course they would. It's the same reason teams took chances on T.O, Sanders, Moss, Haynesworth, Burfict, Mixon, etc.
They want to win. Even if at the cost of having a side show in town. And sometimes those moves don't even pan out in the long run. Again, we ALL are FULLY aware that Jalen Ramsey is probably the best player to come along at his position in years. Probably since at least Revis. But it can be argued that he's not the best teammate or individual for your locker room.
I'll take Xavier Rhodes, Stephon Gilmore, Patrick Peterson & Richard Sherman in their primes, and some in cases, even TODAY over a selfish football player. Talent can only get you so far Bullseye. The Rams are gambling with this trade. It's boom or bust and to be honest it could cost a few folks their jobs by the time his 26 games are up.
They still have to negotiate an extension too. But to answer your easy [BLEEP] question? Teams are desperate to win in the NFL. People are desperate to keep their salaries and jobs in the NFL from the best player in the NFL overall to the strength and conditioning coach or positional coach in the NFL. Sometimes that liquid gold on the shelf in it's pretty little vial ends up being an unforgiving poison. You take your chances in the NFL.
The Jaguars took their's. The Rams took their's. We'll see how it all plays out.
While I think Sexton is an [BLEEP], he is light years better than Frangie as an announcer. Frangie tries too hard and has such a bad announcing voice. Unlistenable.
Sexton’s comments ring true and shed light on the mindset inside the locker room.
I recall Sexton appearing on Who Wants To Be A Millionaire. Don’t think he answered a question correctly and was sent home post-haste. It was hilarious. Certainly humbling for someone who needed to be humbled.
(10-18-2019, 07:11 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 06:30 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand what point you are making.
Are you saying Yannick should have an extension by now? As you and everyone else have stated many times, we don't what was offered or what Yannick was asking for. There was some negotiation, but the two sides could not agree. This is quite common.
So why the question?
One poster (Perkolater, IIRC) made the assertion that Ramsey would have had the deal he wanted if he acted professionally.
I pose the question, in part, to show it's not necessarily true that Ramsey would have gotten a deal even if he was a complete boy scout.
Ngakoue has been as close to a boy scout as you'd want and he doesn't have a deal. Then people started offering any number of excuses as to why Ngakoue didn't get the new deal.
The point is the re-signings seem to have NOTHING to do with talent, production, merit or professionalism.
Lest I am being too obscure, or lest simply meeting the cap minimum (I am offering that possibility) in part drove the Linder re-signing, let's limit this inquiry to the draft class of 2016. Draft position aside and the ramifications that come from those differences (salary of the players, # of years under the original rookie deal), the surrounding salary cap and team impacted the top of the 2016 draft class the same way at the same time. By the time these guys contracts started becoming an issue, all of the surrounding circumstances were the same. By then, the Jaguars added Calais Camobell, Malik Jackson, Dareus, Church, Gipson, and Bouye. Then they added Norwell last year.
Of the three guys at the top of the 2016 draft, how would you list their importance to the team's playoff run? Forget the anger you may feel at Ramsey for the moment and just look at their contributions as players since 2016 and to that playoff run. If you had to list them 1-3 in order of importance, production, accolades for production, etc, how would you rank them? If you had to rank them in terms of who could command the most in trade, how would you rank them? We now know how much Ramsey commanded in trade. If you had to guess, would either Ngakoue or Jack command more in trade than what Ramsey got back for us? If not, who would get more in trade between Ngakoue and Jack? Who started more games between 2016 and now? Who got more league recognized accolades?
Yet of the three, who was the first and only one to get a new deal from the team?
Why?
When does productivity factor in favorably for Jaguars players when it comes to re-signing with the team?
I can see where being the most productive of the Gene Smith draft picks wouldn't be enough to get an extension from the team, although a do nothing like Tyson Alualu managed to get an extension from the team.
But if you listed the players in terms of productivity, the most productive guys didn't get their efforts rewarded with new deals, while those closer to the mediocre end of the spectrum did get the new deals.
If the team's main priority is winning, how can that possibly happen? How could the priority possibly be anything other than keeping the best players here, the ones who did the most to contrubute to the team's winning?
How can that possibly happen? C'mon Bullseye. You know the answer to that. They were unable to agree on a contract. It's that simple.
You're overcomplicating and overthinking this. They were simply unable to agree on a contract. It happens all the time in the NFL.
The only facts we know are that the two sides tried, and they failed, because they could not agree. There's nothing else to it. Any other conclusions you want to draw are based on sand, because we have
no facts on which to base those conclusions.
"The point is the re-signings seem to have NOTHING to do with talent, production, merit or professionalism." You left out the one key ingredient: the ability of the two sides to reach an agreement. Sure, Ngakoue is a great guy, a true professional, and all that. But still, the fact is, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WAS ASKING FOR. So we cannot draw any conclusions from the failure to reach a deal.
(10-18-2019, 08:08 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 07:38 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](emphasis added)
Here's an idea: Retain the very best players...the ones who had the most to do with the winning.
The team first mindset is meaningless if you don't have players on the team that can translate that mindset into wins.
I'm pretty sure nobody on that 1995 team was accused to being a me first player. I'm fairly certain, players were doing everything they could to improve the fortunes of that team. Yet there is no way that team was going to come close to contending in 1995. Why?
They didn't have the talent to do so.
Conversely, all of the teams in the league saw, to some degree, the things Ramsey did to potentially alienate himself from the team. Yet virtually every team made preliminary inquiries, and several were reported to be serious suitors, including the Eagles, who just won the Super Bowl two years ago, and the Rams, who were just in the Super Bowl last year. I readily admit I have never worked in an NFL front office, but I tend to think teams that reach Super Bowls value talent and teamwork. Yet those teams did not hesitate to pursue Ramsey.
How do you explain that? Why is it that franchises that know how to reach the pinnacle stage of the NFL so aggressively pursued such a noxious individual? Even if they weren't in the locker room, they had to suspect that maybe Ramsey wasn't a team first player. He's the guy who plays zone only when he wants to, right? He's the guy who quit on his teammates, right? So why was he pursued by so many teams? Why were the Rams willing to trade so much for him?
It's funny that so many of his detractors call Ramsey "soft" when arguing either expressly or tacitly he isn't worth the headache.
But history has repeatedly shown that while those less successful franchises tend to somehow be prone to headaches, the successful franchises are willing to take an aspirin, take a chance on exceptional talent, and reap the benefits. The trrade market for Ramsey is indisputable proof of that.
Bullseye... you can't retain players that simply don't want to be here. Ask the Raiders how that worked out for them. Ask this front office how it worked out for them. Ask the Steelers how that worked out for them. You're being beyond unreasonable over a guy that was all about himself. The team first mindset is also meaningless if you have guys that don't want to be here.
There's 31 other teams in the NFL Bullseye. That's 31 different teams with a set of 31 different problems, wants & needs. All of those teams have different variables, cultures and ways of doing things. Of course a team would take a chance on Ramsey. Of course they would. It's the same reason teams took chances on T.O, Sanders, Moss, Haynesworth, Burfict, Mixon, etc.
They want to win. Even if at the cost of having a side show in town. And sometimes those moves don't even pan out in the long run. Again, we ALL are FULLY aware that Jalen Ramsey is probably the best player to come along at his position in years. Probably since at least Revis. But it can be argued that he's not the best teammate or individual for your locker room.
I'll take Xavier Rhodes, Stephon Gilmore, Patrick Peterson & Richard Sherman in their primes, and some in cases, even TODAY over a selfish football player. Talent can only get you so far Bullseye. The Rams are gambling with this trade. It's boom or bust and to be honest it could cost a few folks their jobs by the time his 26 games are up.
They still have to negotiate an extension too. But to answer your easy [BLEEP] question? Teams are desperate to win in the NFL. People are desperate to keep their salaries and jobs in the NFL from the best player in the NFL overall to the strength and conditioning coach or positional coach in the NFL. Sometimes that liquid gold on the shelf in it's pretty little vial ends up being an unforgiving poison. You take your chances in the NFL.
The Jaguars took their's. The Rams took their's. We'll see how it all plays out.
To say he is the best corner to come out since Revis is a slap in the face to Sherman. Hes got a ways to go before he gets on Sherman's level. He isnt as good as Gilmore either. Hes young and still has time to be as good but it's to premature for that
just here to say that all our announcers suck. Sexton, Frangie, I can't stand any of them.
(10-18-2019, 08:32 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.instagram.com/p/B3spQbHgNLY/..._copy_link
This isn't even Sherman's best years and he is still playing at an All Pro level and one of the best
Sherman will make the HOF.
As he should. Sherman is an excellent CB. I know the 49ERS were doing good this year. And had seen Sherman make quite a few plays against the Browns. I didn't realize he was THAT good though. That's awesome to see. Good for him. And thanks for further proving my point.
Team players > Me, Myself & I players
Too bad Sherman is a total prick. It's amazing in the NFL how often you have to weigh the pro's and con's between great talent and total headcase or criminal or prima donna diva, etc.... Seems like it happens far more often in the NFL than any other league.
(10-18-2019, 09:02 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Too bad Sherman is a total prick. It's amazing in the NFL how often you have to weigh the pro's and con's between great talent and total headcase or criminal or prima donna diva, etc.... Seems like it happens far more often in the NFL than any other league.
I remember when Sherman wanted out of Sea. but he didnt fake an injury or quit on his team did he? He isnt that much of a [BLEEP] at least
(10-18-2019, 08:42 AM)rocdee Wrote: [ -> ]just here to say that all our announcers suck. Sexton, Frangie, I can't stand any of them.
(10-18-2019, 09:11 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 09:02 AM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Too bad Sherman is a total prick. It's amazing in the NFL how often you have to weigh the pro's and con's between great talent and total headcase or criminal or prima donna diva, etc.... Seems like it happens far more often in the NFL than any other league.
I remember when Sherman wanted out of Sea. but he didnt fake an injury or quit on his team did he? He isnt that much of a [BLEEP] at least
Exactly. He stuck it out for his teammates. Earl Thomas did the same thing and it backfired on him and the Seahawks when he broke his [BLEEP] leg. It's give and take with the contracts for sure. But I don't recall Sherman ever faking any injuries or missing game time over a contract dispute or his baby back [BLEEP] [BLEEP] feelings.
In fact, if I recall correctly, his wife gave birth to a child and the dude hopped a flight right back the next day for game time. That's a damn good teammate if you ask me.
(10-18-2019, 07:12 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 06:34 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]That is possible, though Khan later indicated he was willing to re-sign Ramsey now as opposed to next year.
But what message does that send?
That offensive players have more value to the team than defensive players?
That guys who never made All Pro or Pro Bowl are valued over guys who have?
That durable players are valued less than injury prone players?
There are any number of messages the team could unwittingly convey with this change, if, in fact they are learning the lessons from the Linder and Bortles deals.
This team was a 3rd and country mile away from booking it's flight to it's first Superbowl. In fairness to Bortles, he played pretty damn good in his first three play-off starts. And maybe the front office thought he was turning the corner having tasted that much success and falling short.
They swung. They missed. They also swung and missed with Brandon Linder so far. They did offer an extension to Yannick. He turned it down. They paid Telvin Smith the year before, he under performed and also quit on his team this year. Myles Jack was offered an extension. He [BLEEP] took it.
What else does the Front Office have to do? They made their offers. They're either accepted or rejected. Again, it's still early. I still think they'll resign Ngakoue at some point. I also think it's likely Fournette is resigned.
But the biggest message I took away from this Ramsey ordeal?
Team first. Not players first. Show that you're a good teammate. Show that you're a high character guy in the locker room. Conduct yourself like a professional on and off the field and stop being a baby back [BLEEP] and maybe, just maybe, you'll get that green that you seek.
When Ramsey takes a [BLEEP] on the Rams after his next 26 games are wrapped up it'll be the ultimate trade for this team. Jalen Ramsey is nothing more than a Cornerback version of T.O. Me, me, me & I, I, I. Guys like that don't stick around on teams for very long. Three years in Jacksonville. Maybe two years in Los Angeles. But he's destined to move again at some point the moment his baby back [BLEEP] [BLEEP] doesn't get his way.
He spit in Khan's face. After he supported him several times publicly. That's a no-no in any Business.
In fairness, Bortles did not play "pretty damn good" in his 3 playoff games. He was atrocious against Buffalo. 54% completion for 214 and one wide open TD against Pitt. Then had a decent game against a NE defense that got absolutely shredded in the SB.
A FO that thinks that is "turning a corner" has issues.
(10-18-2019, 09:36 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 07:12 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]This team was a 3rd and country mile away from booking it's flight to it's first Superbowl. In fairness to Bortles, he played pretty damn good in his first three play-off starts. And maybe the front office thought he was turning the corner having tasted that much success and falling short.
They swung. They missed. They also swung and missed with Brandon Linder so far. They did offer an extension to Yannick. He turned it down. They paid Telvin Smith the year before, he under performed and also quit on his team this year. Myles Jack was offered an extension. He [BLEEP] took it.
What else does the Front Office have to do? They made their offers. They're either accepted or rejected. Again, it's still early. I still think they'll resign Ngakoue at some point. I also think it's likely Fournette is resigned.
But the biggest message I took away from this Ramsey ordeal?
Team first. Not players first. Show that you're a good teammate. Show that you're a high character guy in the locker room. Conduct yourself like a professional on and off the field and stop being a baby back [BLEEP] and maybe, just maybe, you'll get that green that you seek.
When Ramsey takes a [BLEEP] on the Rams after his next 26 games are wrapped up it'll be the ultimate trade for this team. Jalen Ramsey is nothing more than a Cornerback version of T.O. Me, me, me & I, I, I. Guys like that don't stick around on teams for very long. Three years in Jacksonville. Maybe two years in Los Angeles. But he's destined to move again at some point the moment his baby back [BLEEP] [BLEEP] doesn't get his way.
He spit in Khan's face. After he supported him several times publicly. That's a no-no in any Business.
In fairness, Bortles did not play "pretty damn good" in his 3 playoff games. He was atrocious against Buffalo. 54% completion for 214 and one wide open TD against Pitt. Then had a decent game against a NE defense that got absolutely shredded in the SB.
A FO that thinks that is "turning a corner" has issues.
Bortles also ran his [BLEEP] off against Buffalo and picked up first down's when he could and didn't turn the football over. He also had more than just a few wide open TD passes against Pittsburgh. The defense started strong and then started falling apart late and he kept responding on offense. The coaching staff got overly conservative in New England and that's that.
Once again, you just love being a contrarian but that's fine. We get it. NE's defense got shredded by a better overall offense and by a football coach that [BLEEP] gambled like 2, 3 times on 4th downs to win it. Hindsight is 20/20. But if I was willing to go back deep enough to see the comments during that AFC Championship run you were probably all aboard the "turning the corner" thing with Ba-la-kay Bortles mantra going on around here.
And could you really blame anybody for that? What were they supposed to do after that year? Take Lamar Jackson? So he could have been absolutely [BLEEP] hammered behind a really, really poor offensive line in 2018? They can't predict everything.
(10-18-2019, 09:44 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 09:36 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]In fairness, Bortles did not play "pretty damn good" in his 3 playoff games. He was atrocious against Buffalo. 54% completion for 214 and one wide open TD against Pitt. Then had a decent game against a NE defense that got absolutely shredded in the SB.
A FO that thinks that is "turning a corner" has issues.
Bortles also ran his [BLEEP] off against Buffalo and picked up first down's when he could and didn't turn the football over. He also had more than just a few wide open TD passes against Pittsburgh. The defense started strong and then started falling apart late and he kept responding on offense. The coaching staff got overly conservative in New England and that's that.
Once again, you just love being a contrarian but that's fine. We get it. NE's defense got shredded by a better overall offense and by a football coach that [BLEEP] gambled like 2, 3 times on 4th downs to win it. Hindsight is 20/20. But if I was willing to go back deep enough to see the comments during that AFC Championship run you were probably all aboard the "turning the corner" thing with Ba-la-kay Bortles mantra going on around here.
And could you really blame anybody for that? What were they supposed to do after that year? Take Lamar Jackson? So he could have been absolutely [BLEEP] hammered behind a really, really poor offensive line in 2018? They can't predict everything.
How is it being a contrarian? lol
Bortles was terrible for the Buffalo game and to say otherwise is foolish. I mean he didn't even throw for 100 yards. He also didn't have "a few" wide open TD passes. He had 1. 1 TD pass in the Pitt game after the defense helped give the team a 28-7 lead. And that NE defense was bad. They gave up 254 and 2 TDs to Mariota in the playoffs as well and Mariota is garbage too.
The mistake was made in the 2017 draft by taking Fournette (who looks good now) instead of Watson/Mahomes. They chose Bortles and then doubled down on that mistake by giving him an extension.
My main point here is that this FO should give no one the confidence that the moves they make are the right ones. 1 winning season (in a year where they played backup QBs the majority of the time) in the past what.... 10+ years?
(10-18-2019, 09:54 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 09:44 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Bortles also ran his [BLEEP] off against Buffalo and picked up first down's when he could and didn't turn the football over. He also had more than just a few wide open TD passes against Pittsburgh. The defense started strong and then started falling apart late and he kept responding on offense. The coaching staff got overly conservative in New England and that's that.
Once again, you just love being a contrarian but that's fine. We get it. NE's defense got shredded by a better overall offense and by a football coach that [BLEEP] gambled like 2, 3 times on 4th downs to win it. Hindsight is 20/20. But if I was willing to go back deep enough to see the comments during that AFC Championship run you were probably all aboard the "turning the corner" thing with Ba-la-kay Bortles mantra going on around here.
And could you really blame anybody for that? What were they supposed to do after that year? Take Lamar Jackson? So he could have been absolutely [BLEEP] hammered behind a really, really poor offensive line in 2018? They can't predict everything.
How is it being a contrarian? lol
Bortles was terrible for the Buffalo game and to say otherwise is foolish. I mean he didn't even throw for 100 yards. He also didn't have "a few" wide open TD passes. He had 1. 1 TD pass in the Pitt game after the defense helped give the team a 28-7 lead. And that NE defense was bad. They gave up 254 and 2 TDs to Mariota in the playoffs as well and Mariota is garbage too.
The mistake was made in the 2017 draft by taking Fournette (who looks good now) instead of Watson/Mahomes. They chose Bortles and then doubled down on that mistake by giving him an extension.
My main point here is that this FO should give no one the confidence that the moves they make are the right ones. 1 winning season (in a year where they played backup QBs the majority of the time) in the past what.... 10+ years?
I am not 100% sold on the FO. It's give and take. I'll meet you in the middle on that. I agree with 2017 being more of a lucky break than anything, all the more reason to be bitter that the coaching staff took their foot off the gas against New England. The argument with Watson and Mahomes being the guys HERE that they are now over out in Houston and Kansas City though is debatable.
You would still need a good coaching staff intelligent enough to look at those guys and say "Yeah, I can make an offense work around their abilities". Do you really have faith that Hackett would have figured that out? Or Marrone would have figured that out? I don't. I don't think the extension was a mistake. I think it was a show of good faith, and their faith betrayed them there.
My idea of terrible is different than yours I guess. Bortles playing mistake free and running for first down's to sustain drives is better than Bortles throwing up 4 wounded ducks into triple coverage. I still think you're discrediting his efforts a bit in the Pittsburgh and New England games. And in reality, if the offensive line holds up physically in 2018, he may still be the QB here. For better or worse.
They smoked the Patriots in week three. Everybody was [BLEEP] hyped about that on here. They looked the part. They looked strong. And then everything went to [BLEEP]. My only disagreement with the Bortles extension was them eating the $16M cap hit. They didn't want to wait until June to part ways to avoid that hit and they wanted to show they were serious about Nick Foles.
I get it. It's a bad look to keep a QB on your team like that when it's a QB driven leauge. Not that Bortles would have landed a starting gig this year based on how he ended up in L.A behind Goff. But I get the reasoning as to why they did it. And as someone pointed out. BECAUSE of the failures with Bortles, Linder and maybe Norwell? They're dialing back their extensions. But Yannick WAS offered a deal. Jack WAS extended. And I believe they'll ultimately get Yannick down on paper for the next few years to come.
(10-18-2019, 07:38 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 07:12 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]This team was a 3rd and country mile away from booking it's flight to it's first Superbowl. In fairness to Bortles, he played pretty damn good in his first three play-off starts. And maybe the front office thought he was turning the corner having tasted that much success and falling short.
They swung. They missed. They also swung and missed with Brandon Linder so far. They did offer an extension to Yannick. He turned it down. They paid Telvin Smith the year before, he under performed and also quit on his team this year. Myles Jack was offered an extension. He [BLEEP] took it.
What else does the Front Office have to do? They made their offers. They're either accepted or rejected. Again, it's still early. I still think they'll resign Ngakoue at some point. I also think it's likely Fournette is resigned.
But the biggest message I took away from this Ramsey ordeal?
Team first. Not players first. Show that you're a good teammate. Show that you're a high character guy in the locker room. Conduct yourself like a professional on and off the field and stop being a baby back [BLEEP] and maybe, just maybe, you'll get that green that you seek.
When Ramsey takes a [BLEEP] on the Rams after his next 26 games are wrapped up it'll be the ultimate trade for this team. Jalen Ramsey is nothing more than a Cornerback version of T.O. Me, me, me & I, I, I. Guys like that don't stick around on teams for very long. Three years in Jacksonville. Maybe two years in Los Angeles. But he's destined to move again at some point the moment his baby back [BLEEP] [BLEEP] doesn't get his way.
He spit in Khan's face. After he supported him several times publicly. That's a no-no in any Business.
(emphasis added)
Here's an idea: Retain the very best players...the ones who had the most to do with the winning.
The team first mindset is meaningless if you don't have players on the team that can translate that mindset into wins.
I'm pretty sure nobody on that 1995 team was accused to being a me first player. I'm fairly certain, players were doing everything they could to improve the fortunes of that team. Yet there is no way that team was going to come close to contending in 1995. Why?
They didn't have the talent to do so.
Conversely, all of the teams in the league saw, to some degree, the things Ramsey did to potentially alienate himself from the team. Yet virtually every team made preliminary inquiries, and several were reported to be serious suitors, including the Eagles, who just won the Super Bowl two years ago, and the Rams, who were just in the Super Bowl last year. I readily admit I have never worked in an NFL front office, but I tend to think teams that reach Super Bowls value talent and teamwork. Yet those teams did not hesitate to pursue Ramsey.
How do you explain that? Why is it that franchises that know how to reach the pinnacle stage of the NFL so aggressively pursued such a noxious individual? Even if they weren't in the locker room, they had to suspect that maybe Ramsey wasn't a team first player. He's the guy who plays zone only when he wants to, right? He's the guy who quit on his teammates, right? So why was he pursued by so many teams? Why were the Rams willing to trade so much for him?
It's funny that so many of his detractors call Ramsey "soft" when arguing either expressly or tacitly he isn't worth the headache.
But history has repeatedly shown that while those less successful franchises tend to somehow be prone to headaches, the successful franchises are willing to take an aspirin, take a chance on exceptional talent, and reap the benefits. The trrade market for Ramsey is indisputable proof of that.
On point. Thank you. I feel sometimes it doesn't make sense to explain it to some of fans who can't get past the emotional part of it but when you really look at everything it is all there.
Then it also crazy, because it seems like our front office has been trying to do the opposite for years. At one point we kept trying to get diamonds in the rough from smaller schools. Now its like if someone is confident and kind of flashy they call that being a diva and a locker room cancer.
If the players is doing what he is supposed to do on the field and doesn't have a domestic issues off field why not keep him to help win?
Everyone always references the Patriots but they have completely different situation with arguably the GOAT at QB and a very good coach but they pretty much always take chance on risky players. It really doesn't seem as hard as the gms make it seem
(10-18-2019, 10:27 AM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 07:38 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](emphasis added)
Here's an idea: Retain the very best players...the ones who had the most to do with the winning.
The team first mindset is meaningless if you don't have players on the team that can translate that mindset into wins.
I'm pretty sure nobody on that 1995 team was accused to being a me first player. I'm fairly certain, players were doing everything they could to improve the fortunes of that team. Yet there is no way that team was going to come close to contending in 1995. Why?
They didn't have the talent to do so.
Conversely, all of the teams in the league saw, to some degree, the things Ramsey did to potentially alienate himself from the team. Yet virtually every team made preliminary inquiries, and several were reported to be serious suitors, including the Eagles, who just won the Super Bowl two years ago, and the Rams, who were just in the Super Bowl last year. I readily admit I have never worked in an NFL front office, but I tend to think teams that reach Super Bowls value talent and teamwork. Yet those teams did not hesitate to pursue Ramsey.
How do you explain that? Why is it that franchises that know how to reach the pinnacle stage of the NFL so aggressively pursued such a noxious individual? Even if they weren't in the locker room, they had to suspect that maybe Ramsey wasn't a team first player. He's the guy who plays zone only when he wants to, right? He's the guy who quit on his teammates, right? So why was he pursued by so many teams? Why were the Rams willing to trade so much for him?
It's funny that so many of his detractors call Ramsey "soft" when arguing either expressly or tacitly he isn't worth the headache.
But history has repeatedly shown that while those less successful franchises tend to somehow be prone to headaches, the successful franchises are willing to take an aspirin, take a chance on exceptional talent, and reap the benefits. The trrade market for Ramsey is indisputable proof of that.
On point. Thank you. I feel sometimes it doesn't make sense to explain it to some of fans who can't get past the emotional part of it but when you really look at everything it is all there.
Then it also crazy, because it seems like our front office has been trying to do the opposite for years. At one point we kept trying to get diamonds in the rough from smaller schools. Now its like if someone is confident and kind of flashy they call that being a diva and a locker room cancer.
If the players is doing what he is supposed to do on the field and doesn't have a domestic issues off field why not keep him to help win?
Everyone always references the Patriots but they have completely different situation with arguably the GOAT at QB and a very good coach but they pretty much always take chance on risky players. It really doesn't seem as hard as the gms make it seem
Jesus [BLEEP] Christ. What part do some of you on here not understand of HIM not wanting to be HERE? What part of HIM requesting a trade to no longer be HERE do you guys not understand?
Again, Khan publicly goes out and says "I'll make you THE highest paid player at your position" and yet he STILL didn't want to be here?
[BLEEP]. Some of you are dense as [BLEEP]. He was highly, highly unprofessional in Houston. He throws a [BLEEP] [BLEEP] temper tantrum over a challenge not being made, puts his hands on his coach, then proceeds to DROP what looked to be a pick six to help out his team.
He didn't want to be here. He would have drawn out his baby back injury [BLEEP] as much as he possibly could. And all more than likely comes from the fact that he was told to be what? A professional.
Stick to fantasy football folks. I forget. It's players > teams now.
[BLEEP].
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
(10-18-2019, 10:27 AM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 07:38 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](emphasis added)
Here's an idea: Retain the very best players...the ones who had the most to do with the winning.
The team first mindset is meaningless if you don't have players on the team that can translate that mindset into wins.
I'm pretty sure nobody on that 1995 team was accused to being a me first player. I'm fairly certain, players were doing everything they could to improve the fortunes of that team. Yet there is no way that team was going to come close to contending in 1995. Why?
They didn't have the talent to do so.
Conversely, all of the teams in the league saw, to some degree, the things Ramsey did to potentially alienate himself from the team. Yet virtually every team made preliminary inquiries, and several were reported to be serious suitors, including the Eagles, who just won the Super Bowl two years ago, and the Rams, who were just in the Super Bowl last year. I readily admit I have never worked in an NFL front office, but I tend to think teams that reach Super Bowls value talent and teamwork. Yet those teams did not hesitate to pursue Ramsey.
How do you explain that? Why is it that franchises that know how to reach the pinnacle stage of the NFL so aggressively pursued such a noxious individual? Even if they weren't in the locker room, they had to suspect that maybe Ramsey wasn't a team first player. He's the guy who plays zone only when he wants to, right? He's the guy who quit on his teammates, right? So why was he pursued by so many teams? Why were the Rams willing to trade so much for him?
It's funny that so many of his detractors call Ramsey "soft" when arguing either expressly or tacitly he isn't worth the headache.
But history has repeatedly shown that while those less successful franchises tend to somehow be prone to headaches, the successful franchises are willing to take an aspirin, take a chance on exceptional talent, and reap the benefits. The trrade market for Ramsey is indisputable proof of that.
On point. Thank you. I feel sometimes it doesn't make sense to explain it to some of fans who can't get past the emotional part of it but when you really look at everything it is all there.
Then it also crazy, because it seems like our front office has been trying to do the opposite for years. At one point we kept trying to get diamonds in the rough from smaller schools. Now its like if someone is confident and kind of flashy they call that being a diva and a locker room cancer.
If the players is doing what he is supposed to do on the field and doesn't have a domestic issues off field why not keep him to help win?
Everyone always references the Patriots but they have completely different situation with arguably the GOAT at QB and a very good coach but they pretty much always take chance on risky players. It really doesn't seem as hard as the gms make it seem
Because he doesnt want to be here.
Because JALEN RAMSEY ASKED FOR A TRADE.
Because he FAKED AN INJURY or at best embellished its severity. Him being ready for the Rams and not being on the injury report tells me all I need to know about Ramsey.
(10-18-2019, 10:36 AM)jagshype Wrote: [ -> ] (10-18-2019, 10:27 AM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ]On point. Thank you. I feel sometimes it doesn't make sense to explain it to some of fans who can't get past the emotional part of it but when you really look at everything it is all there.
Then it also crazy, because it seems like our front office has been trying to do the opposite for years. At one point we kept trying to get diamonds in the rough from smaller schools. Now its like if someone is confident and kind of flashy they call that being a diva and a locker room cancer.
If the players is doing what he is supposed to do on the field and doesn't have a domestic issues off field why not keep him to help win?
Everyone always references the Patriots but they have completely different situation with arguably the GOAT at QB and a very good coach but they pretty much always take chance on risky players. It really doesn't seem as hard as the gms make it seem
Because he doesnt want to be here.
Because JALEN RAMSEY ASKED FOR A TRADE.
Because he FAKED AN INJURY or at best embellished its severity. Him being ready for the Rams and not being on the injury report tells me all I need to know about Ramsey.
I guess some people missed that part lol. People act like we just didnt want him here and wanted to trade him. The clown asked to be traded, faked an injury and quit on his team. The quitter lied to our owner after a heart to heart and after our owner said he would make him the highest paid corner in the league.