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Quote:I'm always amazed by these posts. It's always the same story. Black person talks about the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, institutionalized racism, discrimination, and civil rights and there is always some white person that attempts to make it seem like their history of oppression wasn't all that bad. It seems every time a black person tries to communicate these very real, tangible, historical struggles it is met with "But", "But" and accusations of victim mentality. Black people can't even have serious dialogues with some whites (mostly Conservatives), on race because these issues aren't even real to them. Whenever we do bring up race, we are chastised for playing the "race card". I don't know of a time I've ever brought up race and someone said, "Yea I can see that". You simply cannot have this discussion. It's like the wife who is consistently abused emotionally, but has a man that swears he is the nicest husband in the world. No matter how often she tells him, he always finds a way to reverse the blame. He can't even offer an apology because he simply refuses to acknowledge there is a problem.


My three times great grandfather was a slave, working on a farm in the Deep South during the 1840s. He owned nothing, not even his own name. He had a wife and kids but they were slaves too (thank you Ancestry.com). He didn't have an option of leaving, or escaping persecution. His only option was to work and survive. That is it. There was no making it out of the confines of the Georgia farm that he labored on. Where would he go? If he ran a way he was a dead man walking. A black man can hide his thoughts but not his skin. He was what he was. When slavery ended, can you guess what he continued doing? He continued working on the farm because most blacks couldn't find anything other than unskilled work. Eventually, he made his way down to Florida. Hardships followed. He had my two times great grandfather sometime in the late 1890s, and he lived a long life of laboring. But he never owned anything. There are no records of how many times he was chastised, or called the N-Word, or beaten up, or harassed by racists. People in his day, and in his father's day had to be real careful what they uttered. At some point during, the Great Depression he had my Grandfather which was significantly worst for African Americans. Poverty was a way of life. Saving money was out of the question. Survival was all that mattered. My Grandfather eventually served in WW2 and Korea, and was able to make a decent life after. He bought a house in a quiet black neighborhood, but would always tell me about how badly whites treated him. You couldn't go to their pools, watch movies in their theaters, even looking at a white woman could get you in serious trouble. Trying to vote meant taking ridiculous tests. My father born in 1950, a full decade and a half before the Civil Rights era faced much of the same things. He told me many a time as a child how he'd go to public bathrooms and signs would say "Whites"and "Colored". A fountain would be in the middle. One pipe split into either direction. It was segregation at it's finest. My father struggled too. He worked hard, and studied as best as he could. Jacksonville had an extremely racist climate during the 1950 through 1970s but eventually he was able to land a job working with JEA and then Fire and Rescue in the mid 70s. He had a very long and successful career but that opportunity would likely not have been there without Affirmative Action. Whites simply controlled everything. My father didn't go to college. Many black families are just recently having college graduates (I will be the first to receive three degrees in science). Many are still fighting, clawing, and doing the best they can to be good Americans. We simply want to be happy and live in peace like everyone else and although racial tensions have cooled it seems that some of the hostility toward us is returning. Police brutality, multiple shootings, racist rhetoric from certain politicians. It's hard to understand unless you are black.

QFT

This thread really helps me to understand the divide going on at the moment.


Very defensive reaction to Solid Snake.

Quote:This is the argument that I just don't understand. Where in any of the discussions that Rashean or Solid provided in this thread created an atmosphere that white people can't or don't want to understand the struggle. Maybe I missed it, but neither of them have used words which come off as antagonistic or ostracizing to the entire race of white people.


Is it possible that conservatives just cannot remove themselves from the guilt of America's sins, maybe? When someone tells you a story about thier experience, it's not an indictment of your innaction or apathy, or anything.


"They have no interest in moving forward". You created a straw man to be upset with. An entire group of black people that you can then equate to being the problem, and therefore you are no longer the problem when it comes to their struggles. This type of straw man allows one to remove themselves from the discussion and thus maintain thier own opinions without considering the opinions and experiences of those that may challenge those opinions.


There are two black people that are discussing this issue right here, and are not indicting or even looking to attack white people. They are just discussing yada yada yada ect ect ect

Sorry.. I don't care about the black race, I don't care about the white race.. I care about the individual.

Quote:Sorry.. I don't care about the black race, I don't care about the white race.. I care about the individual.

There are two individuals in this thread explaining their experience as Americans.

Quote:You pretty much spoke for me as well.. Nice post..

I wish it wasn't like this but it is what it is. To a fault I always try to see things from another perspective, but people who don't want you to understand but to be made to feel guilty for something you didn't even do have some deep personal beliefs/issues that will never be changed no matter what anyone says or does. There is no point beating a dead horse.


I have learned from the things we all share here on this message board and have even been shown where I may have been wrong about something and it changed my thinking. I learned a lot in this post alone about the folks who shared and it helps me to understand them better, whether I agree with it or not, but I will not be made to feel badly about something I had nothing to do with. What my ancestors did or didn't do is not on me just as yours are not on you.

Quote:I wish it wasn't like this but it is what it is. To a fault I always try to see things from another perspective, but people who don't want you to understand but to be made to feel guilty for something you didn't even do have some deep personal beliefs/issues that will never be changed no matter what anyone says or does. There is no point beating a dead horse.


I have learned from the things we all share here on this message board and have even been shown where I may have been wrong about something and it changed my thinking. I learned a lot in this post alone about the folks who shared and it helps me to understand them better, whether I agree with it or not, but I will not be made to feel badly about something I had nothing to do with. What my ancestors did or didn't do is not on me just as yours are not on you.

Personally for me, I just quit caring. I'm out for me and me alone anymore. I had nothing to do with history so therefore I have nothing to be ashamed about. I'm not going to crusade for other people either. That's just me though.

Quote:This thread really helps me to understand the divide going on at the moment.

Very defensive reaction to Solid Snake.

It's not what SS is saying so much as his demand that we understand something he knows we will never understand and to apologize and be accountable for something he knows we never did. We as in present tense. If I am wrong then he can correct me.


I will never know the issues people of color face because I am not one, but don't tell me I don't care or don't sympathize about the person. Like Winger said, I care about the individual, not their race (meaning the color of their skin). I don't care what color you are, if you're kind to me I will be kind to you. If you're not, I won't go out of my way to be mean, but I most likely won't think of you at all.


As others have pointed out, a black man has sat in the seat of the White House for 8 years. I find it curious that he never worked on getting a formal government apology for the slave issue this country had. An apology so many want.

Quote:It's not what SS is saying so much as his demand that we understand something he knows we will never understand and to apologize and be accountable for something he knows we never did. We as in present tense. If I am wrong then he can correct me.


I will never know the issues people of color face because I am not one, but don't tell me I don't care or don't sympathize about the person. Like Winger said, I care about the individual, not their race (meaning the color of their skin). I don't care what color you are, if you're kind to me I will be kind to you. If you're not, I won't go out of my way to be mean, but I most likely won't think of you at all.


As others have pointed out, a black man has sat in the seat of the White House for 8 years. I find it curious that he never worked on getting a formal government apology for the slave issue this country had. An apology so many want.

Damn.. you hittin on all cylinders.

Quote:This is the argument that I just don't understand. Where in any of the discussions that Rashean or Solid provided in this thread created an atmosphere that white people can't or don't want to understand the struggle. Maybe I missed it, but neither of them have used words which come off as antagonistic or ostracizing to the entire race of white people.


Is it possible that conservatives just cannot remove themselves from the guilt of America's sins, maybe? When someone tells you a story about thier experience, it's not an indictment of your innaction or apathy, or anything.


"They have no interest in moving forward". You created a straw man to be upset with. An entire group of black people that you can then equate to being the problem, and therefore you are no longer the problem when it comes to their struggles. This type of straw man allows one to remove themselves from the discussion and thus maintain thier own opinions without considering the opinions and experiences of those that may challenge those opinions.


There are two black people that are discussing this issue right here, and are not indicting or even looking to attack white people. They are just discussing the struggle. Why ignore the two people you are actually discussing this topic with? You are making blanket statements that are clearly false based on the fact that 2 black people have several times mentioned they are moving forward in this very thread.


However, the history is long, entrenched, and still affecting the present. Moving forward begins with acknowledgement. It seems like that's something Conservatives have a hard time doing.


Again, just my observations. But as an outside observer, it's just weird to read this thread. It seems that Rashean and Solid are trying to explain their experience, and the conservatives are talking right past them.

It's doing nothing but furthering the divide. "Us vs them" "liberals vs conservatives" all it does is divide us further and it makes me sad, in a way, because it doesn't need to be this way.

Quote:Damn.. you hittin on all cylinders.

It happens from time to time. I can get in the trenches if I have to or when I want to.

Quote:It's not what SS is saying so much as his demand that we understand something he knows we will never understand and to apologize and be accountable for something he knows we never did. We as in present tense. If I am wrong then he can correct me.


I will never know the issues people of color face because I am not one, but don't tell me I don't care or don't sympathize about the person. Like Winger said, I care about the individual, not their race (meaning the color of their skin). I don't care what color you are, if you're kind to me I will be kind to you. If you're not, I won't go out of my way to be mean, but I most likely won't think of you at all.


As others have pointed out, a black man has sat in the seat of the White House for 8 years. I find it curious that he never worked on getting a formal government apology for the slave issue this country had. An apology so many want.

2008

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...d=93059465

 

On Tuesday, the U.S. House of Representatives issued an unprecedented apology to black Americans for the institution of slavery, and the subsequent Jim Crow laws that for years discriminated against blacks as second-class citizens in American society.

Rep. Steve Cohen, a Democrat from Tennessee, drafted the resolution. Cohen explains the apology's long journey for Congressional approval and the significance of its timing.

Quote:2008

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...d=93059465

 

On Tuesday, the U.S. House of Representatives issued an unprecedented apology to black Americans for the institution of slavery, and the subsequent Jim Crow laws that for years discriminated against blacks as second-class citizens in American society.

Rep. Steve Cohen, a Democrat from Tennessee, drafted the resolution. Cohen explains the apology's long journey for Congressional approval and the significance of its timing.

That is interesting. I had no idea that even happened, granted I didn't have a television and very limited internet access at the time. So why, when this apology happened, are people like Soild Snake and Rashean27Mathis and others asking for a formal apology? In the resolution it states, "
And today we rectify that mistake. This is a symbolic resolution but hopefully it will begin a dialogue where people will open their hearts and their minds to the problems that face this country, from racism that exists in this country on both sides and which must end if we're to go forward as the country that we were created to be and which we are destined to be." 

 

Is it not good enough because it was symbolic as opposed to being made into a national holiday? Because there wasn't an immediate end to racism? Because there wasn't monetary reparations? I'm not being sarcastic here, I want to know. I had no idea this even happened and at the time this did happen I was living and working among the black community in Jacksonville and do not remember them saying a word about it. I wouldn't have needed TV or internet to know, they would have been talking about it.

Quote:That is interesting. I had no idea that even happened, granted I didn't have a television and very limited internet access at the time. So why, when this apology happened, are people like Soild Snake and Rashean27Mathis and others asking for a formal apology? In the resolution it states, "
And today we rectify that mistake. This is a symbolic resolution but hopefully it will begin a dialogue where people will open their hearts and their minds to the problems that face this country, from racism that exists in this country on both sides and which must end if we're to go forward as the country that we were created to be and which we are destined to be." 

 

Is it not good enough because it was symbolic as opposed to being made into a national holiday? Because there wasn't an immediate end to racism? Because there wasn't monetary reparations? I'm not being sarcastic here, I want to know. I had no idea this even happened and at the time this did happen I was living and working among the black community in Jacksonville and do not remember them saying a word about it. I wouldn't have needed TV or internet to know, they would have been talking about it.

Maybe they will chime in and tell you. i believe a few of them inferred that an apology was all they desired. I wonder if they even know of the existence of this resolution and if not how truly important is it to them? Americans love to piss and moan, all colors of us.

Quote:Maybe they will chime in and tell you. i believe a few of them inferred that an apology was all they desired. I wonder if they even know of the existence of this resolution and if not how truly important is it to them? Americans love to [BAD WORD REMOVED] and moan, all colors of us.

True enough.

 

And if it's an official, from the government apology they want then there is it. There's nothing more to say.

I do vaguely remember this, but i forgot about it.

 

obviously it didn't work

Quote:2008

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story...d=93059465

 

On Tuesday, the U.S. House of Representatives issued an unprecedented apology to black Americans for the institution of slavery, and the subsequent Jim Crow laws that for years discriminated against blacks as second-class citizens in American society.

Rep. Steve Cohen, a Democrat from Tennessee, drafted the resolution. Cohen explains the apology's long journey for Congressional approval and the significance of its timing.

 

 

 

 

Quote:In 1988, President Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act to compensate more than 100,000 people of <b>Japanese </b>descent who were incarcerated in <b>internment camps</b>during World War II. The legislation offered a formal apology and paid out $20,000 in compensation to each surviving victim. http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2...nt-redress

The caveat of the entire 2008 resolution is that the mea culpa (acknowledgement of the wrongs of Slavery and Jim Crow) could NOT be used as legal rationale for reparations, financial or otherwise.

 

I have a problem with that. I argue that aside from the near genocide of the Native Americans, the century-plus of institutionalized racism towards blacks has been one of the greatest sins of this country. The timing, coming after close to two centuries of mistreatment of blacks and on the heels of this nation electing it's first African American president are also very interesting. It's like either a husband and wife leaving relationship counseling and saying the problem is fixed. Chapter closed! No its not.

 

By the way what was Reagan's rationale for tax funded financial reparations to the Japanese descendants? Did he feel an obligation to help them overcome their apparent marginalization?

Quote:The caveat of the entire 2008 resolution is that the mea culpa (acknowledgement of the wrongs of Slavery and Jim Crow) could NOT be used as legal rationale for reparations, financial or otherwise.


I have a problem with that. I argue that aside from the near genocide of the Native Americans, the century-plus of institutionalized racism towards blacks has been one of the greatest sins of this country. The timing, coming after close to two centuries of mistreatment of blacks and on the heels of this nation electing it's first African American president are also very interesting. It's like either a husband and wife leaving relationship counseling and saying the problem is fixed. Chapter closed! No its not.

By the way what was Reagan's rationale for tax funded financial reparations to the Japanese descendants? Did he feel an obligation to help them overcome their apparent marginalization?

I was not aware of both of the things you posted. Great questions, btw.

Quote:My father as child was forced to drink from colored fountains, go to colored schools, go to colored bathrooms, ride the back of the bus, ETC ETC. He could not go to movies that said "Whites Only", take a [BAD WORD REMOVED] in "White bathrooms". This was less than 60 years ago. 

 

So let's stop pretending it happened less than 60 seconds ago.

Quote:So let's stop pretending it happened less than 60 seconds ago.

Progress does not mean eradication. For instance one candidate still believes stop and frisk is a good idea.


The war on drugs continues to disproportionally affect minorities.


So let's stop pretending that the problem no longer exists.

Quote:Progress does not mean eradication. For instance one candidate still believes stop and frisk is a good idea.


The war on drugs continues to disproportionally affect minorities.


So let's stop pretending that the problem no longer exists.

 

It lasts as long as some allow it.  Today, some still promote it.

 

But it's not race vs race.  It's politicians vs race.  Manipulation and control for political gain.

 

To solve the problem, you must first understand it.  Unfortunately, many like yourself misdiagnose the issue.  It's why such political "resolutions" never work.