(04-19-2020, 09:54 AM)The_Franchise_QB Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 03:05 AM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]Do you not remember Fournette getting in fights while being a captain and having his guarantees un-guaranteed?
Telvin taking a personal foul while returning an interception and then post game declaring he would take one every time someone challenged him?
Do I even need to start with Ramsey?
They led the league in personal fouls by a wide margin in 2018 IIRC. It was a national story.
True, but he was a rookie then. I don’t know, maybe they had a bad locker room but it just seems like too much blame is being put on all these players being “bad apples”. No blame going to Marrone and staff. Personal fouls imo is a complete coaching thing so I disagree with you there. Not saying there was no locker room issue like with Jalen, but it’s being spinned that we had these TERRIBLE guys in the locker room.. and I just am not buying it.
Wianning solves everything.
Winning DID solve everything. When we started to lose it became unravelled. It has been well-documented now that there were rifts in the locker room, especially once Poz left. There was a group of young guys who refused to get in line (based on reports it looks like Ramsey, Telvin, and Fournette were among them) and they even proverbially spat in Calais' face.
I really see Ramsey as the source of the issue. He's on twitter right now telling all his buddies to leave the Jags. For what it's worth, LF really cleaned up his act last year and went to work. I don't even necessarily have a problem with what he said in his interview. They gave him multiple opportunities to bag on the team and he instead said it wasn't about him but all of them coming together.
That said, while not a bust, he was drafted far too high and likely isn't getting a 2nd contract here, so I'm not opposed to trading him.
(04-19-2020, 09:06 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 07:25 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Not every yard is equal. I see Fournette as a consumer of good offensive production. The line has to play well and open holes, Fournette doesn't produce above the X's and O's, so to speak. Never pay a production consumer, and trade them for value if you can, keep the actual producers, guys like Allen Robinson, who the team foolishly let walk for nothing at all.
(emphasis added)
Considering the team is bent on letting ALL of its producers walk (some without even finishing their rookie contracts), then you let a "consumer" of production like Cam Robinson walk, what is left worth keeping? What is the net result for the team?
BTW, your characterization of Fournette as a "consumer" of other players production is interesting, considering most here consider our offensive line akin to a disaster area, have no TE, and one good WR in Chark.
(04-19-2020, 08:25 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]I'd like to see us trade him to the Steelers for a 3rd rounder. He'd be great behind their driving OLine and, since we're forever in rebuilding mode, we further tank for Trevor Lawrence.
He would be a great fit in Pittsburgh and an upgrade over Connor.
Apparently the "save as draft" feature doesn't work, and instead just trashes your post, so I'm writing this for a second time.
The problem the Jaguars have, and it was shown clearly last year, is they really don't have many producers, and if you don't have producers you need a lot of collective push from everyone else. I'd say the Jaguars probably have 2 or 3 producers on offense, and a lot of other role players, and that's putting Minshew in the producer category before he's proven it long term. I just think we've seen enough out of him to think he might turn out good, which at QB makes a guy a producer.
Now that being said, I think we need to talk about stats and about production. Stats are what guys amass whether they're making game changing plays or they're just following the design of a play and maybe getting lucky with a defense getting out of position (this happened against the Broncos, for example).
Fournette has a lot of yards, much of it thanks to a couple of lucky opportunities where the defense got way out of position. His TDs are low, and if I were to analyze his game to find the reason for that I'd say it seems like he has bad contact balance and he has bad vision once he's past the line. His change of direction isn't good, but if his vision were better I think it would suffice. So Fournette is essentially a running back that is easily taken down by getting an arm near his legs, and doesn't avoid contact well. If I could get a 4th round pick for a running back like him I'd take it and run before they can change their mind.
I think the stat that really says it all about him is that he had 43 rushing attempts that started inside of the opponent's 20 yard line last year, he got 58 yards on those rushes, 5 first downs, and 3 TDs. In the same situation Derrick Henry had 55 attempts for 185 yards and 15 TDs and 21 first downs.
(04-19-2020, 09:06 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]He would be a great fit in Pittsburgh and an upgrade over Connor.
The Steelers are going to draft Connor's replacement because he can't stay healthy, but when healthy Connor was 10x better than Fournette.
(04-19-2020, 09:10 AM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ]The last 3 jersey's I've bought are literally Foles, Ramsey, and Fournette. Gonna be real careful about the next one I choose. Definitely *not* going to be Minshew, lol.
My last 3 jerseys were Reggie Williams, Dante Fowler, and Blake Bortles, so I understand the pain.
Since the jersey got updated the year before, I wanted to buy a new one. But this time I decided to just get a custom jersey with my name on it.
I wouldn't wanna put that bad juju on Minshew.
(04-19-2020, 10:15 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 09:06 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](emphasis added)
Considering the team is bent on letting ALL of its producers walk (some without even finishing their rookie contracts), then you let a "consumer" of production like Cam Robinson walk, what is left worth keeping? What is the net result for the team?
BTW, your characterization of Fournette as a "consumer" of other players production is interesting, considering most here consider our offensive line akin to a disaster area, have no TE, and one good WR in Chark.
He would be a great fit in Pittsburgh and an upgrade over Connor.
Apparently the "save as draft" feature doesn't work, and instead just trashes your post, so I'm writing this for a second time.
The problem the Jaguars have, and it was shown clearly last year, is they really don't have many producers, and if you don't have producers you need a lot of collective push from everyone else. I'd say the Jaguars probably have 2 or 3 producers on offense, and a lot of other role players, and that's putting Minshew in the producer category before he's proven it long term. I just think we've seen enough out of him to think he might turn out good, which at QB makes a guy a producer.
Now that being said, I think we need to talk about stats and about production. Stats are what guys amass whether they're making game changing plays or they're just following the design of a play and maybe getting lucky with a defense getting out of position (this happened against the Broncos, for example).
Fournette has a lot of yards, much of it thanks to a couple of lucky opportunities where the defense got way out of position. His TDs are low, and if I were to analyze his game to find the reason for that I'd say it seems like he has bad contact balance and he has bad vision once he's past the line. His change of direction isn't good, but if his vision were better I think it would suffice. So Fournette is essentially a running back that is easily taken down by getting an arm near his legs, and doesn't avoid contact well. If I could get a 4th round pick for a running back like him I'd take it and run before they can change their mind.
I think the stat that really says it all about him is that he had 43 rushing attempts that started inside of the opponent's 20 yard line last year, he got 58 yards on those rushes, 5 first downs, and 3 TDs. In the same situation Derrick Henry had 55 attempts for 185 yards and 15 TDs and 21 first downs.
I hate having to type posts all over again. Ugh.
What's interesting to me is how many people, as an annual rite of passage,trash the offensive line and stress the need to prioritize the OL in free agency and the draft, but never cite the OL as a problem when it comes to players they don't like.
Any successes he has are the inevitable result of defensive error, and not individual ability.
He has quite a few long runs over the course of his career, including a 90 yarder against Pittsburgh, a 75 yarder against the Rams, a 66 yarder against the Jets, and another long run against Denver. But even accepting your analysis at face value how many players have we had over the years that couldn't even take advantage of an opposition error? Toby Gerhart? Tyson Alualu? Reggie Williams?
Lost in the whole analysis is the answer to a basic question: Who replaces him?
(04-19-2020, 10:44 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 10:15 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]Apparently the "save as draft" feature doesn't work, and instead just trashes your post, so I'm writing this for a second time.
The problem the Jaguars have, and it was shown clearly last year, is they really don't have many producers, and if you don't have producers you need a lot of collective push from everyone else. I'd say the Jaguars probably have 2 or 3 producers on offense, and a lot of other role players, and that's putting Minshew in the producer category before he's proven it long term. I just think we've seen enough out of him to think he might turn out good, which at QB makes a guy a producer.
Now that being said, I think we need to talk about stats and about production. Stats are what guys amass whether they're making game changing plays or they're just following the design of a play and maybe getting lucky with a defense getting out of position (this happened against the Broncos, for example).
Fournette has a lot of yards, much of it thanks to a couple of lucky opportunities where the defense got way out of position. His TDs are low, and if I were to analyze his game to find the reason for that I'd say it seems like he has bad contact balance and he has bad vision once he's past the line. His change of direction isn't good, but if his vision were better I think it would suffice. So Fournette is essentially a running back that is easily taken down by getting an arm near his legs, and doesn't avoid contact well. If I could get a 4th round pick for a running back like him I'd take it and run before they can change their mind.
I think the stat that really says it all about him is that he had 43 rushing attempts that started inside of the opponent's 20 yard line last year, he got 58 yards on those rushes, 5 first downs, and 3 TDs. In the same situation Derrick Henry had 55 attempts for 185 yards and 15 TDs and 21 first downs.
I hate having to type posts all over again. Ugh.
What's interesting to me is how many people, as an annual rite of passage,trash the offensive line and stress the need to prioritize the OL in free agency and the draft, but never cite the OL as a problem when it comes to players they don't like.
Any successes he has are the inevitable result of defensive error, and not individual ability.
He has quite a few long runs over the course of his career, including a 90 yarder against Pittsburgh, a 75 yarder against the Rams, a 66 yarder against the Jets, and another long run against Denver. But even accepting your analysis at face value how many players have we had over the years that couldn't even take advantage of an opposition error? Toby Gerhart? Tyson Alualu? Reggie Williams?
Lost in the whole analysis is the answer to a basic question: Who replaces him?
If he'd have turned any of his long runs into touchdowns this year I'd think a little better of him, but the fact that he got repeatedly taken down from behind by guys catching up to him when he managed to get a break said he's not even good in the way a lot of people thought he was. Sure the offensive line wasn't good this year, either, but what happens when the blocking isn't a problem says a lot, and none of it is good. If the blocking isn't good and the running back isn't good you get a performance like Fournette had where a few lucky breaks get him a few hundred yards on a handful of carries and make his average look respectable, but the 99% type of runs from him are more than replaceable. If the team is going to be bad and unable to run anyway then get whatever draft value you can now since he's probably not in the team's future plans, anyway.
I know Vic loved saying wide receivers are a dime a dozen, but it really applies more to running backs, don't pay them, don't draft them high. Draft linemen on both sides of the ball and find guys that can emulate what Fournette does, not scoring touchdowns in the open field and not breaking arm tackles.
(04-19-2020, 10:40 AM)High Octane Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 09:10 AM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ]The last 3 jersey's I've bought are literally Foles, Ramsey, and Fournette. Gonna be real careful about the next one I choose. Definitely *not* going to be Minshew, lol.
My last 3 jerseys were Reggie Williams, Dante Fowler, and Blake Bortles, so I understand the pain.
Since the jersey got updated the year before, I wanted to buy a new one. But this time I decided to just get a custom jersey with my name on it.
I wouldn't wanna put that bad juju on Minshew.
My last 3 jerseys have been with MY name on the back. Although; with as craptastic as this team has been the past 2 decades, I’m about to cut MYSELF
(04-19-2020, 11:19 AM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 10:40 AM)High Octane Wrote: [ -> ]My last 3 jerseys were Reggie Williams, Dante Fowler, and Blake Bortles, so I understand the pain.
Since the jersey got updated the year before, I wanted to buy a new one. But this time I decided to just get a custom jersey with my name on it.
I wouldn't wanna put that bad juju on Minshew.
My last 3 jerseys have been with MY name on the back. Although; with as craptastic as this team has been the past 2 decades, I’m about to cut MYSELF
Haha. I have long advocated getting a jersey with your own name on it and putting the annual jersey money into your 401 instead. At 65-70 you'll have a small pile of money instead of a large pile of jerseys.
These are not the actions of a GM being held accountable for his past failures. These are not the actions of a coach on a one-year notice. These are the actions of a coach and GM who've been told that they're golden as long as the team keeps the payroll low and is in good shape in 2026 for the move to London.
(04-19-2020, 11:09 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 10:44 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I hate having to type posts all over again. Ugh.
What's interesting to me is how many people, as an annual rite of passage,trash the offensive line and stress the need to prioritize the OL in free agency and the draft, but never cite the OL as a problem when it comes to players they don't like.
Any successes he has are the inevitable result of defensive error, and not individual ability.
He has quite a few long runs over the course of his career, including a 90 yarder against Pittsburgh, a 75 yarder against the Rams, a 66 yarder against the Jets, and another long run against Denver. But even accepting your analysis at face value how many players have we had over the years that couldn't even take advantage of an opposition error? Toby Gerhart? Tyson Alualu? Reggie Williams?
Lost in the whole analysis is the answer to a basic question: Who replaces him?
If he'd have turned any of his long runs into touchdowns this year I'd think a little better of him, but the fact that he got repeatedly taken down from behind by guys catching up to him when he managed to get a break said he's not even good in the way a lot of people thought he was. Sure the offensive line wasn't good this year, either, but what happens when the blocking isn't a problem says a lot, and none of it is good. If the blocking isn't good and the running back isn't good you get a performance like Fournette had where a few lucky breaks get him a few hundred yards on a handful of carries and make his average look respectable, but the 99% type of runs from him are more than replaceable. If the team is going to be bad and unable to run anyway then get whatever draft value you can now since he's probably not in the team's future plans, anyway.
I know Vic loved saying wide receivers are a dime a dozen, but it really applies more to running backs, don't pay them, don't draft them high. Draft linemen on both sides of the ball and find guys that can emulate what Fournette does, not scoring touchdowns in the open field and not breaking arm tackles.
I still don't believe you answered his question. This is the problem with everyone we had traded away. We are giving away playing who are producing at there current positions. Yan, LF, Bouye, Arob, Ramsey, TGip all good players but we dont have anyone that will step in a replace the production. We have had high draft picks for the last 15 years and have only really had a solid team of all pro caliber players in our 2016, 2017 years.
High draft picks are not guaranteed if you pick the wrong players like Caldwell has done so many times. The fact that everyone feels we can replicate the production from all our good players is the reason why we are in the current situation, Dave Caldwell believes the same thing but it is not working. Every player on the team from our most successfull season can't have been a cancer. There are multiple teams with players with character flaws and issues but the COACHES and FO understand how to deal with them and get what they need to get. You telling me, he had to get rid of everyone from the winning team? Dave and Doug couldn't handle it. Whose to say that this same thing doesn't happen again in a year or 2? Will they do the same thing?
Dave Doug and Shad are either reallly stupid or very smart in the way of making the team worse but still having majority of the fans agreeing with all of the moves that are being made. Maybe they are trying to get us to London..smh
(04-19-2020, 12:23 PM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 11:09 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]If he'd have turned any of his long runs into touchdowns this year I'd think a little better of him, but the fact that he got repeatedly taken down from behind by guys catching up to him when he managed to get a break said he's not even good in the way a lot of people thought he was. Sure the offensive line wasn't good this year, either, but what happens when the blocking isn't a problem says a lot, and none of it is good. If the blocking isn't good and the running back isn't good you get a performance like Fournette had where a few lucky breaks get him a few hundred yards on a handful of carries and make his average look respectable, but the 99% type of runs from him are more than replaceable. If the team is going to be bad and unable to run anyway then get whatever draft value you can now since he's probably not in the team's future plans, anyway.
I know Vic loved saying wide receivers are a dime a dozen, but it really applies more to running backs, don't pay them, don't draft them high. Draft linemen on both sides of the ball and find guys that can emulate what Fournette does, not scoring touchdowns in the open field and not breaking arm tackles.
I still don't believe you answered his question. This is the problem with everyone we had traded away. We are giving away playing who are producing at there current positions. Yan, LF, Bouye, Arob, Ramsey, TGip all good players but we dont have anyone that will step in a replace the production. We have had high draft picks for the last 15 years and have only really had a solid team of all pro caliber players in our 2016, 2017 years.
High draft picks are not guaranteed if you pick the wrong players like Caldwell has done so many times. The fact that everyone feels we can replicate the production from all our good players is the reason why we are in the current situation, Dave Caldwell believes the same thing but it is not working. Every player on the team from our most successfull season can't have been a cancer. There are multiple teams with players with character flaws and issues but the COACHES and FO understand how to deal with them and get what they need to get. You telling me, he had to get rid of everyone from the winning team? Dave and Doug couldn't handle it. Whose to say that this same thing doesn't happen again in a year or 2? Will they do the same thing?
Dave Doug and Shad are either reallly stupid or very smart in the way of making the team worse but still having majority of the fans agreeing with all of the moves that are being made. Maybe they are trying to get us to London..smh
To be fair, Dave has an 11% of draftees make the pro bowl. That is one of the better ones.
(04-19-2020, 12:23 PM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 11:09 AM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]If he'd have turned any of his long runs into touchdowns this year I'd think a little better of him, but the fact that he got repeatedly taken down from behind by guys catching up to him when he managed to get a break said he's not even good in the way a lot of people thought he was. Sure the offensive line wasn't good this year, either, but what happens when the blocking isn't a problem says a lot, and none of it is good. If the blocking isn't good and the running back isn't good you get a performance like Fournette had where a few lucky breaks get him a few hundred yards on a handful of carries and make his average look respectable, but the 99% type of runs from him are more than replaceable. If the team is going to be bad and unable to run anyway then get whatever draft value you can now since he's probably not in the team's future plans, anyway.
I know Vic loved saying wide receivers are a dime a dozen, but it really applies more to running backs, don't pay them, don't draft them high. Draft linemen on both sides of the ball and find guys that can emulate what Fournette does, not scoring touchdowns in the open field and not breaking arm tackles.
I still don't believe you answered his question. This is the problem with everyone we had traded away. We are giving away playing who are producing at there current positions. Yan, LF, Bouye, Arob, Ramsey, TGip all good players but we dont have anyone that will step in a replace the production. We have had high draft picks for the last 15 years and have only really had a solid team of all pro caliber players in our 2016, 2017 years.
High draft picks are not guaranteed if you pick the wrong players like Caldwell has done so many times. The fact that everyone feels we can replicate the production from all our good players is the reason why we are in the current situation, Dave Caldwell believes the same thing but it is not working. Every player on the team from our most successfull season can't have been a cancer. There are multiple teams with players with character flaws and issues but the COACHES and FO understand how to deal with them and get what they need to get. You telling me, he had to get rid of everyone from the winning team? Dave and Doug couldn't handle it. Whose to say that this same thing doesn't happen again in a year or 2? Will they do the same thing?
Dave Doug and Shad are either reallly stupid or very smart in the way of making the team worse but still having majority of the fans agreeing with all of the moves that are being made. Maybe they are trying to get us to London..smh
The salary cap is the problem, namely the bad QB management made it so that they couldn't keep the team together. Let's say they draft Mahomes instead of Fournette, then the team never does a bad deal with Bortles, and never follows that with an even worse deal for Foles. Then the team probably won a Superbowl in 2017 instead of coming up short because of a QB you can't count on, and all the guys you mentioned are still here because most of the cap isn't being taken up by a couple of horrific QB contracts.
In the NFL you can't keep everyone when you do things right, when you do things as wrong as the Jaguars have then you really can't keep everyone.
So while draft picks aren't guaranteed, I'd rather go ahead and build toward the future now instead of worrying about whether the team wins 5 games or 7 games this year.
(04-19-2020, 12:25 PM)uthill Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 12:23 PM)D-Money Wrote: [ -> ]I still don't believe you answered his question. This is the problem with everyone we had traded away. We are giving away playing who are producing at there current positions. Yan, LF, Bouye, Arob, Ramsey, TGip all good players but we dont have anyone that will step in a replace the production. We have had high draft picks for the last 15 years and have only really had a solid team of all pro caliber players in our 2016, 2017 years.
High draft picks are not guaranteed if you pick the wrong players like Caldwell has done so many times. The fact that everyone feels we can replicate the production from all our good players is the reason why we are in the current situation, Dave Caldwell believes the same thing but it is not working. Every player on the team from our most successfull season can't have been a cancer. There are multiple teams with players with character flaws and issues but the COACHES and FO understand how to deal with them and get what they need to get. You telling me, he had to get rid of everyone from the winning team? Dave and Doug couldn't handle it. Whose to say that this same thing doesn't happen again in a year or 2? Will they do the same thing?
Dave Doug and Shad are either reallly stupid or very smart in the way of making the team worse but still having majority of the fans agreeing with all of the moves that are being made. Maybe they are trying to get us to London..smh
To be fair, Dave has an 11% of draftees make the pro bowl. That is one of the better ones.
How many are still on the roster?
What's the winning percentage for this team with Dave as a GM?
How is his drafted QB doing?
What about his first HC?
Caldwell is garbage, still funny to see people defending him though.
(04-19-2020, 11:51 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]These are not the actions of a GM being held accountable for his past failures. These are not the actions of a coach on a one-year notice. These are the actions of a coach and GM who've been told that they're golden as long as the team keeps the payroll low and is in good shape in 2026 for the move to London.
I agree.
For people defending Fournette:
His career ypc average is just horrendous and it has been proven he has vision problems in spotting the holes. Yes this offensive line is a problem but so is Fournette. We need a better line and a better running back. It is not one or the other.
(04-19-2020, 12:43 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ] (04-19-2020, 11:51 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]These are not the actions of a GM being held accountable for his past failures. These are not the actions of a coach on a one-year notice. These are the actions of a coach and GM who've been told that they're golden as long as the team keeps the payroll low and is in good shape in 2026 for the move to London.
I agree.
For people defending Fournette:
His career ypc average is just horrendous and it has been proven he has vision problems in spotting the holes. Yes this offensive line is a problem but so is Fournette. We need a better line and a better running back. It is not one or the other.
I think Fournette actually makes the line look even worse than it is. He's slow and needs a runway and doesn't punish over pursuit like a running back with good vision and change of direction would. That's also why I think he got a few long runs last year where defenders misread the play and crashed down to the wrong spot never worrying about him possibly cutting it back on them, but managed to still just recover and run him down from behind.
I’d like to see Devine Ozigbo get more of a look. Apparently he had some good runs in NO in the preseason and they hated to see him get snatched up. At 6’2, 225 he’s a big kid.
Really simple question:
Is Fournette worth the 5th year option and an extension somewhere in the 20-25 mil guaranteed range?
If not, wouldn’t it make sense to attempt to trade him for some value if you don’t plan on bringing him back?
(04-19-2020, 01:09 PM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ]I’d like to see Devine Ozigbo get more of a look. Apparently he had some good runs in NO in the preseason and they hated to see him get snatched up. At 6’2, 225 he’s a big kid.
I’m cool with an open competition to include Ziggy. But I would like to see a RB added within the first 4 rounds of the draft as well.
(04-19-2020, 02:38 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]Really simple question:
Is Fournette worth the 5th year option and an extension somewhere in the 20-25 mil guaranteed range?
If not, wouldn’t it make sense to attempt to trade him for some value if you don’t plan on bringing him back?
(04-19-2020, 01:09 PM)NCJag Wrote: [ -> ]I’d like to see Devine Ozigbo get more of a look. Apparently he had some good runs in NO in the preseason and they hated to see him get snatched up. At 6’2, 225 he’s a big kid.
I’m cool with an open competition to include Ziggy. But I would like to see a RB added within the first 4 rounds of the draft as well.
I’m in.
As long as by “within the first 4 rounds” you mean “no sooner than the 4th round.”
