(03-11-2021, 09:54 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ](03-11-2021, 04:48 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]14M for the worst player at his position in the league is a hell of a contingency.
Exactly. I hear so many people refer to him as "insurance", but when you buy insurance, you ask what it costs and what benefits it provides. Cam Robinson costs a ton and provides little to no protection.
(03-12-2021, 09:26 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](03-12-2021, 08:34 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know why you aren't grasping this concept. Experienced does not equal good. Cam is ranked near the bottom on almost every list of starting OT's in the NFL, so even if we find an average LT in the draft, he'd be a little better than what we now have. That's not just my opinion. Just watch ESPN and follow the "experts" outside of Jacksonville, who do this stuff for a living. Very few people outside of this team have a decent opinion of either one of our OT's. How is keeping a bad LT, a good move? You have to take risks in order to get better. You are apparently too "gun shy" to try and get better, so you settle for the garbage you have. That makes no sense!
Being callous and cheap is keeping a subpar LT like Robinson and expecting him to magically become good enough to protect Lawrence's blindside.
It's not a high risk bet. It's relatively low risk, because our OT's are so bad. Take those rose colored glasses off and see what everyone outside of Jacksonville sees. Our starting OT's are not good. They aren't even average. We HAVE to take a risk, if we wanna take that next step. What if we did get stuck with the #2 pick instead of #1 and Trevor was gone? Would you avoid taking a QB, because they might be worse than Minshew? I certainly would hope you'd still take a QB. It's the same difference with OT.
I agree with you on the need to upgrade our tackle spots.
But at what point do you draw the line regarding the availability of a better option in the draft?
In the last two to three days, three more teams-Minnesota, Las Vegas and Kansas City-were added to the list of teams needing to address that same position. All of those teams that need a T-specifically a LT-pick ahead of us except Kansas City.
Ruling out for the moment the possibility of us trading up in the first round (more on this in another post to come), there is a good chance there will be a substantial run on the position.
Conservatively speaking, these are the teams that could use a T (besides us)
2. Jets
3. Miami
5. Bengals
6. Eagles
8. Panthers
9. Broncos
13. Chargers
14. Vikings
17. Raiders
18. Miami
19. WFT
20. Bears
21. Colts
23. Jets
24. Steelers
25 ---------------------------------------------Jaguars
27. Ravens (assuming a Brown trade)
31. Chiefs
This list excludes Dallas, Denver, San Francisco (if they lose Williams), and Seattle, who could have a pick ahead of us if they are dumb enough to trade russell Wilson.
The chances of there being a run at the position ahead of us are high. So assuming there is a run at the position on some late rising Ts, at what point would it not be worth taking a T in the first round?
(03-13-2021, 12:10 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is a fact ——
There is NO rookie LT that will come in and be better than Cam Robinson by week 1.
They guaranteed that a starting professional LT will be protecting Lawrence’s blindside this season. If we can upgrade that spot then so be it.
Right now, this is what we got.
(03-13-2021, 02:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 12:10 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is a fact ——
There is NO rookie LT that will come in and be better than Cam Robinson by week 1.
They guaranteed that a starting professional LT will be protecting Lawrence’s blindside this season. If we can upgrade that spot then so be it.
Right now, this is what we got.
That is absolutely FALSE. That is just your opinion. Tristan Wirfs was a rookie last year and was one of the highest graded OT's in the NFL. How do you explain that? Mekhi Becton, Andrew Thomas and Tristan Wirfs were all chosen in the first round last season and according to PFF, all had higher blocking grades than Cam Robinson did last year and Jedrick Wills was only .2 behind Robinson. In fact, Austin Jackson was the only OT chosen in the first round and saw significant playing time, who had a significantly worse grade than Robinson. How do you explain that?
These are the facts. Your argument doesn't hold water. All players are different. You can't just say a blanket statement like no rookie LT will be better than Robinson. Some will and some won't.
(03-13-2021, 02:33 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ](Emphasis supplied by TheOLine matters)(03-12-2021, 09:26 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with you on the need to upgrade our tackle spots.
But at what point do you draw the line regarding the availability of a better option in the draft?
In the last two to three days, three more teams-Minnesota, Las Vegas and Kansas City-were added to the list of teams needing to address that same position. All of those teams that need a T-specifically a LT-pick ahead of us except Kansas City.
Ruling out for the moment the possibility of us trading up in the first round (more on this in another post to come), there is a good chance there will be a substantial run on the position.
Conservatively speaking, these are the teams that could use a T (besides us)
2. Jets
3. Miami
5. Bengals
6. Eagles
8. Panthers
9. Broncos
13. Chargers
14. Vikings
17. Raiders
18. Miami
19. WFT
20. Bears
21. Colts
23. Jets
24. Steelers
25 ---------------------------------------------Jaguars
27. Ravens (assuming a Brown trade)
31. Chiefs
This list excludes Dallas, Denver, San Francisco (if they lose Williams), and Seattle, who could have a pick ahead of us if they are dumb enough to trade russell Wilson.
The chances of there being a run at the position ahead of us are high. So assuming there is a run at the position on some late rising Ts, at what point would it not be worth taking a T in the first round?
There is nothing I wouldn't do to get an upgrade at OT. If that means I have to slightly overpay to move up in the draft and get one of the franchise OT's, I will. If all the guys I wanted at #25 are gone. Then I use that pick and next year's first round pick to trade for a good, young, established NFL OT. I'm not gonna reach for a guy at #25 that I have graded much lower, but I absolutely refuse to go into next season starting a subpar LT like Cam Robinson. We will have too much invested in Trevor Lawrence to risk both of our edges being wide open due to bad players at the OT spots.
Quote:I agree that more NFL teams are gonna be looking for OT's in the draft and now it looks like not much will be left at #25. Instead of franchising Cam as some misguided insurance policy. I would pull that tag today and bring in Riley Reiff on a 3-4 year deal. Since it looks like Trent Williams is set to re-sign with the Niners, Reiff is the next best option. I'd front load the crap out of a contract, guarantee almost all of the money and make it virtually impossible for any team to outbid us. He would be a HUGE upgrade at either OT position. I agree with D6 that he is an ideal RT, but based on how he played last season at LT, (only 1 sack and 1 penalty surrendered in over 1000 snaps,) he has proven he is a good LT as well.
(03-13-2021, 02:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 12:10 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is a fact ——
There is NO rookie LT that will come in and be better than Cam Robinson by week 1.
They guaranteed that a starting professional LT will be protecting Lawrence’s blindside this season. If we can upgrade that spot then so be it.
Right now, this is what we got.
That is absolutely FALSE. That is just your opinion. Tristan Wirfs was a rookie last year and was one of the highest graded OT's in the NFL. How do you explain that? Mekhi Becton, Andrew Thomas and Tristan Wirfs were all chosen in the first round last season and according to PFF, all had higher blocking grades than Cam Robinson did last year and Jedrick Wills was only .2 behind Robinson. In fact, Austin Jackson was the only OT chosen in the first round and saw significant playing time, who had a significantly worse grade than Robinson. How do you explain that?
These are the facts. Your argument doesn't hold water. All players are different. You can't just say a blanket statement like no rookie LT will be better than Robinson. Some will and some won't.
(03-13-2021, 08:59 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 02:33 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]There is nothing I wouldn't do to get an upgrade at OT. If that means I have to slightly overpay to move up in the draft and get one of the franchise OT's, I will. If all the guys I wanted at #25 are gone. Then I use that pick and next year's first round pick to trade for a good, young, established NFL OT. I'm not gonna reach for a guy at #25 that I have graded much lower, but I absolutely refuse to go into next season starting a subpar LT like Cam Robinson. We will have too much invested in Trevor Lawrence to risk both of our edges being wide open due to bad players at the OT spots.(Emphasis supplied by TheOLine matters)
There is nothing you wouldn't do? Couple of ways to address that. First, we could beat every team to the punch by taking a LT at #1 overall. I don't think ANYONE would be in favor of that, no matter how big of a whole we considered LT to be. Second, just because you are eager to adequately address LT, doesn't mean the other teams are willing to help us address that position by trading down. Aside from them possibly needing a LT of their own, they have other players at other positions they may think are worth that spot. There is no guarantee they would be willing to trade down. Now like I said in the other thread, Baalke had repeatedly proven willing to move up to get the player he wants. If he has the requisite influence in the room, we may be willing to move up to address the position. But there has to be a guy on the board worth getting, and there has to be a team willing to move down at our price (or close to it). While I am in no way privy to the workings of the other 31 teams in the league, the only team I can see at the moment who may want to drop to 25 is New England. They have the most desperate need for QB, WR and TE. There is a school of thought that they pick too low to get one of the top 4 signal callers (maybe top 5). There is also thought in some circles the one guy they may be able to get at QB, Mac Jones, is closer to a late first early second round pick than the others. There is a similar dynamic at WR and TE. After the top three of Chase, Smith and Waddle, there is a perceived drop at the position, and after Pitts, there is the thought Firermuth is a late 1 early 2nd round guy. They are accustomed to picking that low. Assuming there is no player at a defensive position that takes precedence, I could see New England trading back.
Quote:I agree that more NFL teams are gonna be looking for OT's in the draft and now it looks like not much will be left at #25. Instead of franchising Cam as some misguided insurance policy. I would pull that tag today and bring in Riley Reiff on a 3-4 year deal. Since it looks like Trent Williams is set to re-sign with the Niners, Reiff is the next best option. I'd front load the crap out of a contract, guarantee almost all of the money and make it virtually impossible for any team to outbid us. He would be a HUGE upgrade at either OT position. I agree with D6 that he is an ideal RT, but based on how he played last season at LT, (only 1 sack and 1 penalty surrendered in over 1000 snaps,) he has proven he is a good LT as well.
Reiff is still out there and Cam has yet to sign the franchise tag. This can still happen if Reiff is open to signing somewhere else.
(03-13-2021, 09:09 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 02:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]That is absolutely FALSE. That is just your opinion. Tristan Wirfs was a rookie last year and was one of the highest graded OT's in the NFL. How do you explain that? Mekhi Becton, Andrew Thomas and Tristan Wirfs were all chosen in the first round last season and according to PFF, all had higher blocking grades than Cam Robinson did last year and Jedrick Wills was only .2 behind Robinson. In fact, Austin Jackson was the only OT chosen in the first round and saw significant playing time, who had a significantly worse grade than Robinson. How do you explain that?
These are the facts. Your argument doesn't hold water. All players are different. You can't just say a blanket statement like no rookie LT will be better than Robinson. Some will and some won't.
I think it's possible for a rookie T to come in and upgrade Cam Robinson. We've had two rookies do just that over the course of our franchise: Boselli and Khalif Barnes.
The question for me is whether we will have access to the players who can step in and be a quality starter at LT from day one.
Most of the left tackles that can likely do that will likely be off the board by pick 25. While Baalke has proven willing to trade up, that can't be relied upon at this stage to upgrade the position.
(03-13-2021, 12:10 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is a fact ——
There is NO rookie LT that will come in and be better than Cam Robinson by week 1.
They guaranteed that a starting professional LT will be protecting Lawrence’s blindside this season. If we can upgrade that spot then so be it.
Right now, this is what we got.
(03-13-2021, 11:35 AM)iHaunting Raven Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 12:10 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is a fact ——
There is NO rookie LT that will come in and be better than Cam Robinson by week 1.
They guaranteed that a starting professional LT will be protecting Lawrence’s blindside this season. If we can upgrade that spot then so be it.
Right now, this is what we got.
Clueless as usual
(03-13-2021, 11:27 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]As for trading up, I target teams who already have an established LT who may be up against the cap and might possibly want to trade down and acquire more picks in order to re-stock due to the salary cap with cheap rookie talent. There are gonna be some of those teams out there. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that this year more teams would be willing to trade down, due to the cap.As I said, I'm with you regarding the need to upgrade the position. But I forgot to add that while rookies are capable of upgrading LT, there is no guarantee they can do so (Joekel and Monroe), aside from likely having to execute a trade up to get those rookies. Because there is no guarantee, either of a trade up, the performance of a rookie, or for that matter the performance of Reiff or another free agent, that is why the team tagged Cam.
The Patriots just re-signed Newton, as a fallback plan. I don't see Belichik moving up to get a QB. The Patriots always seem to move back, rather than to trade up. I also see Mac Jones going much higher than people think. I have him off the board when the Pats select, so unless New England is willing to take a complete enigma like Trey Lance, I don't see them taking a QB in round 1. Currently, I have them selecting Jaylen Waddle at #15. Instead, I think they add a veteran QB that might get cut after the draft. Maybe someone like Jimmy G, Sam Darnold, Matt Ryan or Teddy Bridgewater. Signing Mitchell Trubisky could also be an option for them.
As I said before, Reiff would be a HUGE upgrade for us at either OT position. We are in agreement on that. I sincerely hope we do. If we don't make a play for him, I believe that would be a clear sign that Meyer and Baalke have no intentions of upgrading either OT position.
(03-13-2021, 09:09 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's possible for a rookie T to come in and upgrade Cam Robinson. We've had two rookies do just that over the course of our franchise: Boselli and Khalif Barnes.
The question for me is whether we will have access to the players who can step in and be a quality starter at LT from day one.
Most of the left tackles that can likely do that will likely be off the board by pick 25. While Baalke has proven willing to trade up, that can't be relied upon at this stage to upgrade the position.
That's why all options are open. Signing Reiff immediately, would insure the position is upgraded and would resolve this entire issue.
(03-13-2021, 05:02 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 11:27 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]As for trading up, I target teams who already have an established LT who may be up against the cap and might possibly want to trade down and acquire more picks in order to re-stock due to the salary cap with cheap rookie talent. There are gonna be some of those teams out there. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that this year more teams would be willing to trade down, due to the cap.As I said, I'm with you regarding the need to upgrade the position. But I forgot to add that while rookies are capable of upgrading LT, there is no guarantee they can do so (Joekel and Monroe), aside from likely having to execute a trade up to get those rookies. Because there is no guarantee, either of a trade up, the performance of a rookie, or for that matter the performance of Reiff or another free agent, that is why the team tagged Cam.
The Patriots just re-signed Newton, as a fallback plan. I don't see Belichik moving up to get a QB. The Patriots always seem to move back, rather than to trade up. I also see Mac Jones going much higher than people think. I have him off the board when the Pats select, so unless New England is willing to take a complete enigma like Trey Lance, I don't see them taking a QB in round 1. Currently, I have them selecting Jaylen Waddle at #15. Instead, I think they add a veteran QB that might get cut after the draft. Maybe someone like Jimmy G, Sam Darnold, Matt Ryan or Teddy Bridgewater. Signing Mitchell Trubisky could also be an option for them.
As I said before, Reiff would be a HUGE upgrade for us at either OT position. We are in agreement on that. I sincerely hope we do. If we don't make a play for him, I believe that would be a clear sign that Meyer and Baalke have no intentions of upgrading either OT position.
That's why all options are open. Signing Reiff immediately, would insure the position is upgraded and would resolve this entire issue.
The new league year hasn't begun yet. We are still outside the legal tampering period for free agents. Urban did not trash the RT class the way he did the LT class. This is why I'm not yet in panic mode.
Even in a worst case scenario where the team does not upgrade either T position, there's no guarantee Lawrence gets injured behind that OL. While Foles got hurt, Minshew survived his entire rookie year with those two at T-with Robinson fresh off a knee injury.
The fact is we are a 1-15 team. The likelihood of this team upgrading every position of need in one off season was next to nil, even with all of the cap room and the extra draft picks. I want us to upgrade the T positions, but it may not happen this year.
(03-13-2021, 02:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 12:10 AM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Here is a fact ——
There is NO rookie LT that will come in and be better than Cam Robinson by week 1.
They guaranteed that a starting professional LT will be protecting Lawrence’s blindside this season. If we can upgrade that spot then so be it.
Right now, this is what we got.
That is absolutely FALSE. That is just your opinion. Tristan Wirfs was a rookie last year and was one of the highest graded OT's in the NFL. How do you explain that? Mekhi Becton, Andrew Thomas and Tristan Wirfs were all chosen in the first round last season and according to PFF, all had higher blocking grades than Cam Robinson did last year and Jedrick Wills was only .2 behind Robinson. In fact, Austin Jackson was the only OT chosen in the first round and saw significant playing time, who had a significantly worse grade than Robinson. How do you explain that?
These are the facts. Your argument doesn't hold water. All players are different. You can't just say a blanket statement like no rookie LT will be better than Robinson. Some will and some won't.
(03-13-2021, 07:58 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]Except.... it’s not a fact. It’s opinion.(03-13-2021, 02:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]That is absolutely FALSE. That is just your opinion. Tristan Wirfs was a rookie last year and was one of the highest graded OT's in the NFL. How do you explain that? Mekhi Becton, Andrew Thomas and Tristan Wirfs were all chosen in the first round last season and according to PFF, all had higher blocking grades than Cam Robinson did last year and Jedrick Wills was only .2 behind Robinson. In fact, Austin Jackson was the only OT chosen in the first round and saw significant playing time, who had a significantly worse grade than Robinson. How do you explain that?
These are the facts. Your argument doesn't hold water. All players are different. You can't just say a blanket statement like no rookie LT will be better than Robinson. Some will and some won't.
The QB will make the offensive lineman PFF grades improve.
1,2,3 ball out ...instead of 1,2,3, let me scramble around bc I’m scared to throw a pick now the DE sacks me.
Those grades don’t mean jack. Lamar Jackson’s LT is probably an all star. He can juke DE’s and avoid sacks.
Also I said by week 1. Due to Covid the offseason isn’t what it used to be. It’s a fact that Robinson will be better than any rookie by week 1.
I pulled a stat up last season that showed Cam Robinson was like 8th in the league in blocking or something.
(03-13-2021, 08:35 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I would take all of them here and be quite happy.(03-13-2021, 07:58 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]The QB will make the offensive lineman PFF grades improve.Except.... it’s not a fact. It’s opinion.
1,2,3 ball out ...instead of 1,2,3, let me scramble around bc I’m scared to throw a pick now the DE sacks me.
Those grades don’t mean jack. Lamar Jackson’s LT is probably an all star. He can juke DE’s and avoid sacks.
Also I said by week 1. Due to Covid the offseason isn’t what it used to be. It’s a fact that Robinson will be better than any rookie by week 1.
I pulled a stat up last season that showed Cam Robinson was like 8th in the league in blocking or something.
You wouldn’t take Sewell or Slater or Darrisaw? Come on now.
(03-13-2021, 08:39 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I think Meyer is blowing a lot of smoke (except for the one about drafting Lawrence). I think he’s keeping a lot close to the vest.(03-13-2021, 08:35 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Except.... it’s not a fact. It’s opinion.I would take all of them here and be quite happy.
You wouldn’t take Sewell or Slater or Darrisaw? Come on now.
I just wonder if one of them will fall far enough fur us to trade up for them, or if Meyer's supposed disdain for the LT class fall to them.
(03-13-2021, 07:58 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 02:50 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]That is absolutely FALSE. That is just your opinion. Tristan Wirfs was a rookie last year and was one of the highest graded OT's in the NFL. How do you explain that? Mekhi Becton, Andrew Thomas and Tristan Wirfs were all chosen in the first round last season and according to PFF, all had higher blocking grades than Cam Robinson did last year and Jedrick Wills was only .2 behind Robinson. In fact, Austin Jackson was the only OT chosen in the first round and saw significant playing time, who had a significantly worse grade than Robinson. How do you explain that?
These are the facts. Your argument doesn't hold water. All players are different. You can't just say a blanket statement like no rookie LT will be better than Robinson. Some will and some won't.
The QB will make the offensive lineman PFF grades improve.
1,2,3 ball out ...instead of 1,2,3, let me scramble around bc I’m scared to throw a pick now the DE sacks me.
Those grades don’t mean jack. Lamar Jackson’s LT is probably an all star. He can juke DE’s and avoid sacks.
Also I said by week 1. Due to Covid the offseason isn’t what it used to be. It’s a fact that Robinson will be better than any rookie by week 1.
I pulled a stat up last season that showed Cam Robinson was like 8th in the league in blocking or something.
(03-13-2021, 08:35 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 07:58 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]The QB will make the offensive lineman PFF grades improve.Except.... it’s not a fact. It’s opinion.
1,2,3 ball out ...instead of 1,2,3, let me scramble around bc I’m scared to throw a pick now the DE sacks me.
Those grades don’t mean jack. Lamar Jackson’s LT is probably an all star. He can juke DE’s and avoid sacks.
Also I said by week 1. Due to Covid the offseason isn’t what it used to be. It’s a fact that Robinson will be better than any rookie by week 1.
I pulled a stat up last season that showed Cam Robinson was like 8th in the league in blocking or something.
You wouldn’t take Sewell or Slater or Darrisaw? Come on now.
(03-13-2021, 09:15 PM)JaG4LyFe Wrote: [ -> ](03-13-2021, 08:35 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Except.... it’s not a fact. It’s opinion.
You wouldn’t take Sewell or Slater or Darrisaw? Come on now.
Sewell is the only LT in the draft...so he's a non factor considering we'll be taking Lawrence. I find it laughable that you guys think Slater or Darrisaw is better than Cam right now. Haha...had to get one more chuckle out
(03-13-2021, 09:34 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Go away with your stats and facts! We don’t take too kindly to dem there things round here.(03-13-2021, 09:15 PM)JaG4LyFe Wrote: [ -> ]Sewell is the only LT in the draft...so he's a non factor considering we'll be taking Lawrence. I find it laughable that you guys think Slater or Darrisaw is better than Cam right now. Haha...had to get one more chuckle out
So when you see people post stats from multiple expert sources saying stuff like he is by far the lowest graded tackle or that despite missing most of a season he still leads the league in pressures since being drafted, what goes through your head? You think you know more than they do combined? Or you think that Slater and Darrisaw are going to be worse than the worst tackle of the last half decade? I just don't get how people so easily dismiss the evidence. But I know fan is short for fanatic for a reason.