(09-28-2021, 04:33 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 09:21 AM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]If a player has been injured for 5 of his 6 seasons, I could understand the availability argument. To declare a player worthless and trade him for peanuts because of injuries when he's only been in the league 1 year and 3 games is ridiculous. Again, I ask, if Etienne gets a minor injury early next season, are you advocating trading him for peanuts too? Injuries happen.
As for Henderson's head not being in the game, a good coach would find a way to get his head into the game. Even if not, you wait until he gets his head together. We'll never be a good team if we keep trading away talent for peanuts.
To answer your hyperbole, no, I wouldn't trade Etienne away solely because of injury. I wouldn't have and didn't say the only reason Henderson was traded was due to injury.
If Etienne pulls a CJ/Jalen/Yannick and basically says poop on yous guys I ain't playin, you darn right I send his hiney packing too.
So if you spend the next two seasons trying to get CJ's head straight, or his desire to play on a perennial loser, or his enjoyment of the game back, and it never works, what have you gained? What have you missed out on, both in trade capital and time you could have been focusing on the guys that are actually pushing to improve and form this team's future?
If this were a sprained ankle or bum shoulder, sure. Take some time. See if you can recover and get back to form. That's not what was at play here and we all know it. Don't play dumb.
First, the initial message that I replied to was you making a statement that Henderson's track record of injuries made him "useless". There was no mention of him being a head case in that message. You brought up this secondary argument in a reply. It appears that you have now reversed your initial statement that I was criticising. Great. We both agree that it is foolish to dump a top 10 draft pick because of injuries after only 1 season and 3 games.
As far as being a head case, I'm not a big believer in analyzing body language. I heard some criticizing Meyer for being stoic while losing big in the Houston game. Some people just aren't emotional. Even if Henderson does suffer from some type of depression or anti-social disorder, get him some psychiatric help. We don't need someone to be the life of a party. We need as many good football players as possible. Even at his current level of play, I considered him our best cornerback. He's only played 10 regular season games at a position that is very difficult to learn. He's likely to improve and perhaps significantly. If so, we'll be kicking ourselves for making this deal. Even if the worst were to happen and we missed out on trade value by waiting, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Dan Arnold is just a guy. Moving from the top of the fifth round to the bottom of the third round is very minor compensation to lose a starter with upside potential. We got to give our early draft picks a chance to develop if we ever want to be a winning team.
(09-28-2021, 09:51 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 09:46 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]I would take Lawrence over Jefferson. If we take Jefferson or anyone else, who knows what happens next year.
If we took JJ and Wirfs I don't think we get Lawrence. We lost a few close games
I agree 100%. That's why it sucks to lose those players but I wouldn't trade any of them for Lawrence.
(09-28-2021, 09:51 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 09:46 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]I would take Lawrence over Jefferson. If we take Jefferson or anyone else, who knows what happens next year.
If we took JJ and Wirfs I don't think we get Lawrence. We lost a few close games
(09-28-2021, 10:26 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 09:51 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we took JJ and Wirfs I don't think we get Lawrence. We lost a few close games
I agree 100%. That's why it sucks to lose those players but I wouldn't trade any of them for Lawrence.
This creates an interesting hypothetical. We could have won 2 more games and picked second. Would people give up Lawrence, Henderson and Chaisson for Wilson, Wirfs and JJ? If yes, what if we won more and it were Lance, Fields or Mac Jones as the quarterback?
(09-28-2021, 10:50 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 09:51 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we took JJ and Wirfs I don't think we get Lawrence. We lost a few close games
(09-28-2021, 10:26 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]I agree 100%. That's why it sucks to lose those players but I wouldn't trade any of them for Lawrence.
This creates an interesting hypothetical. We could have won 2 more games and picked second. Would people give up Lawrence, Henderson and Chaisson for Wilson, Wirfs and JJ? If yes, what if we won more and it were Lance, Fields or Mac Jones as the quarterback?
If we lose Lawrence, I would take Wilson and be very happy.
(09-28-2021, 11:11 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 10:50 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]This creates an interesting hypothetical. We could have won 2 more games and picked second. Would people give up Lawrence, Henderson and Chaisson for Wilson, Wirfs and JJ? If yes, what if we won more and it were Lance, Fields or Mac Jones as the quarterback?
If we lose Lawrence, I would take Wilson and be very happy.
Just to be clear, you would take Wilson/Wirfs/JJ over Lawrence/Henderson/Chaisson?
While a lot of us wanted Wirfs and he has been a good player so far in his young career, you still have to put some things in perspective. Tom Brady is his QB and Brady has made some very average at best OL guys look like All-Pros.
Not saying Wirfs is bad or anything, but there's no shot he looks as good as he has if he played on this team last year.
Just like we've seen with Lawrence and our OL at times so far throughout 3 games. A QB has a whole lot to do with how good/bad an OL can look.
(09-28-2021, 11:15 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 11:11 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]If we lose Lawrence, I would take Wilson and be very happy.
Just to be clear, you would take Wilson/Wirfs/JJ over Lawrence/Henderson/Chaisson?
I am saying if we didn't get the first pick.
(09-28-2021, 11:28 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 11:15 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Just to be clear, you would take Wilson/Wirfs/JJ over Lawrence/Henderson/Chaisson?
I am saying if we didn't get the first pick.
The hypothetical is being posed as a packaged deal. You can have the first three players or the second three players. You can't mix and match. Which do you prefer?
(09-28-2021, 11:37 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 11:28 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]I am saying if we didn't get the first pick.
The hypothetical is being posed as a packaged deal. You can have the first three players or the second three players. You can't mix and match. Which do you prefer?
Honestly, I take the Wilson group. I still think he is just slightly below Trevor and you add a top WR abs OL and that pushes it over the edge for me.
Lawrence over the other hypothetical.
(09-28-2021, 10:45 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]Does this chart indicate CJ actually pocketed $13 million in Year 1 --- check out the Yearly Cash Column. If that is the case, I can see why certain players just want to pack it up and move on with life (outside of football).
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-pan...son-47602/
Yes. He got his base salary of $610k plus all of the signing bonus of $12.4 million all at once. The team has to account for the signing bonus over the life of the contract unless the player is traded and then all of the remaining signing bonus gets accounted for in the year of the trade by the team. You still have to factor in taxes so he didn't pocket $13 million, but he still pocketed a lot.
(09-28-2021, 10:13 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 04:33 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]To answer your hyperbole, no, I wouldn't trade Etienne away solely because of injury. I wouldn't have and didn't say the only reason Henderson was traded was due to injury.
If Etienne pulls a CJ/Jalen/Yannick and basically says poop on yous guys I ain't playin, you darn right I send his hiney packing too.
So if you spend the next two seasons trying to get CJ's head straight, or his desire to play on a perennial loser, or his enjoyment of the game back, and it never works, what have you gained? What have you missed out on, both in trade capital and time you could have been focusing on the guys that are actually pushing to improve and form this team's future?
If this were a sprained ankle or bum shoulder, sure. Take some time. See if you can recover and get back to form. That's not what was at play here and we all know it. Don't play dumb.
First, the initial message that I replied to was you making a statement that Henderson's track record of injuries made him "useless". There was no mention of him being a head case in that message. You brought up this secondary argument in a reply. It appears that you have now reversed your initial statement that I was criticising. Great. We both agree that it is foolish to dump a top 10 draft pick because of injuries after only 1 season and 3 games.
As far as being a head case, I'm not a big believer in analyzing body language. I heard some criticizing Meyer for being stoic while losing big in the Houston game. Some people just aren't emotional. Even if Henderson does suffer from some type of depression or anti-social disorder, get him some psychiatric help. We don't need someone to be the life of a party. We need as many good football players as possible. Even at his current level of play, I considered him our best cornerback. He's only played 10 regular season games at a position that is very difficult to learn. He's likely to improve and perhaps significantly. If so, we'll be kicking ourselves for making this deal. Even if the worst were to happen and we missed out on trade value by waiting, I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Dan Arnold is just a guy. Moving from the top of the fifth round to the bottom of the third round is very minor compensation to lose a starter with upside potential. We got to give our early draft picks a chance to develop if we ever want to be a winning team.
Quote:The kid may have potential. But the fact that he spent as much time off the field as on renders that potential useless.
I never attributed his time off field solely to injury, that's your insinuation. The documented combination of injury, malaise, or outside distractions have hindered his ability last season, this offseason and so far this year to stay on the field.
I've said it before. When he was on, he was great to have in the secondary. When he was not, we were left searching to pick up the slack he left behind. After a while of no-shows, every boss has to start weighing whether it's worth it to keep the employee on the schedule. If the coaches found him to be unreliable as to when he was going to bring his game, I fully understand why they chose to move on.
My statement was simple - if you are unreliable, your potential eventually isn't enough to keep you around.
(09-29-2021, 08:06 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 10:45 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]Does this chart indicate CJ actually pocketed $13 million in Year 1 --- check out the Yearly Cash Column. If that is the case, I can see why certain players just want to pack it up and move on with life (outside of football).
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-pan...son-47602/
Yes. He got his base salary of $610k plus all of the signing bonus of $12.4 million all at once. The team has to account for the signing bonus over the life of the contract unless the player is traded and then all of the remaining signing bonus gets accounted for in the year of the trade by the team. You still have to factor in taxes so he didn't pocket $13 million, but he still pocketed a lot.
If that is the case, even after agent fees and taxes, he has a minimum of $6 million in the bank. Most people work their entire lives to achieve $1 million so I can see how this dude from Miami could wake up and say ... I'm good. I actually hope he feels content and moves on with life (and doesn't become and elite DB). Then, I'd consider this one of those things that no team could have seen.
This is a Ramsey situation, but without the skills.
See ya!
(09-29-2021, 09:22 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]This is a Ramsey situation, but without the skills.
See ya!
Ehh he's not quite the [BLEEP] head sweet Jalen was.
(09-29-2021, 09:22 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]This is a Ramsey situation, but without the skills.
See ya!
I don't think he is a diva. I just think he is a dude that has issues fitting in.
(09-28-2021, 11:15 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ]Just to be clear, you would take Wilson/Wirfs/JJ over Lawrence/Henderson/Chaisson?
That's actually a fun hypothetical. I'm not sure I would have taken Wilson #2...but I think I actually would take one of Wilson/Fields/Lance and two all pros at critical positions over Lawrence and two busts.
(09-28-2021, 10:50 PM)TheDuke007 Wrote: [ -> ] (09-28-2021, 09:51 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we took JJ and Wirfs I don't think we get Lawrence. We lost a few close games
(09-28-2021, 10:26 PM)Dimson Wrote: [ -> ]I agree 100%. That's why it sucks to lose those players but I wouldn't trade any of them for Lawrence.
This creates an interesting hypothetical. We could have won 2 more games and picked second. Would people give up Lawrence, Henderson and Chaisson for Wilson, Wirfs and JJ? If yes, what if we won more and it were Lance, Fields or Mac Jones as the quarterback?
I take Lawrence personally. I never thought Wilson would be a premium QB, he may get to pretty good though. I think Fields or Lance could be elite, but they need a lot of work. Jones has no chance at elite, but does look to have a good floor.
If Lawrence progresses like I think he will no amount of player or draft capital would pry him away from us. Nothing is as valuable to the long term success of a franchise as holding the rights to an elite QB.