Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

He wont be missed

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(09-27-2021, 02:10 PM)Jagsfan32277 Wrote: [ -> ]Another first round failure pick that sets the team back for 5 more years

You didn't know?  "Diamond Dave drafted great."

(09-27-2021, 02:11 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 02:04 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]We basically got a 3rd for Henderson and gave up a 5th for Arnold.  If Arnold can be a safety blanket for Trev and have a season like he did last year he is well worth a 5th

Maybe. I've never been impressed with Arnold as a player though. I probably wouldn't have spent a draft pick on him, even a 7th. He just doesn't seem like much of an upgrade over what we have.

You might not of been but he had 438 yrds receiving last year and that would be our highest receiving total in the last 10 years since Lewis.  He was 10 yards less than Jonnu Smith who you pounded the table for.  None of our TEs has put up close to that production

I get everyone is disappointed with the result of drafting CJ and we can all agree it was bad pick (especially with Wirfs on the board).

However, saying we should have not traded him is missing the fact that the entire league can see his tape, his injury history and read tea leaves too. You can no longer look at him as a top 10 pick because that buy-cost is sunk.

Just holding him "hoping for a better offer" could easily resulted in even less return. Just look at Taven Bryan who probably should have been traded 2 years ago, and now would probably pass waivers if he was cut.

Henderson definitely has some raw talent, but there a lot more that goes into being a good, reliable player in the NFL.

(09-27-2021, 01:04 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 12:34 PM)iHaunting Raven Wrote: [ -> ]Weird, nothing to say from Caldwell lovers?   not gonna somehow blame Coughlin? or Khan? something? 

Ultimately, it does come back on Khan. He held onto Caldwell way too long and allowed him to make those terrible picks in 2020. Caldwell should have been fired earlier and replaced with a qualified candidate (not named Baalke.) Had this happened, we almost certainly would not have been stuck with Henderson and Chaisson.

Not what I meant. People made all kind of excuses for Caldwell blaming everyone but him on all the bad picks/FA signings.

Also, you don't have to tell me as I was one of the first people who wanted Caldwell gone.

Draft day 2020. Hi cj this is Caldwell with the jags. Henderson hangs up phone in face. Yep let's draft him! He will love it here ugh

(09-27-2021, 02:38 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 02:11 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe. I've never been impressed with Arnold as a player though. I probably wouldn't have spent a draft pick on him, even a 7th. He just doesn't seem like much of an upgrade over what we have.

You might not of been but he had 438 yrds receiving last year and that would be our highest receiving total in the last 10 years since Lewis.  He was 10 yards less than Jonnu Smith who you pounded the table for.  None of our TEs has put up close to that production

Those numbers are a little deceiving. I remember last season he got a a lot of yards on one single play where the Rams totally blew coverage and left Arnold open for a long TD. Here it is.

https://youtu.be/BDScdgLYunM

I didn't really "pound the table" for Smith. I wanted us to sign him, because he wouldn't cost us anything as far as draft picks and he was just the best of the available TE's. I "pounded the table" to draft Tristan Wirfs. With Smith, I just thought he would be the best player in a bad situation. Listen, I hope Arnold turns out to be a great player. I really do, but I don't see him as a difference maker. Personally, I believe he will have about the same impact that O'Shaughnessy had for us last season, maybe a little better, but not much. I just don't think that is worth a 5th round pick. Comparing him to our current TE's is a little unfair, considering how bad our current crop is. The bar is set very low.

(09-27-2021, 02:59 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 02:38 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]You might not of been but he had 438 yrds receiving last year and that would be our highest receiving total in the last 10 years since Lewis.  He was 10 yards less than Jonnu Smith who you pounded the table for.  None of our TEs has put up close to that production

Those numbers are a little deceiving. I remember last season he got a a lot of yards on one single play where the Rams totally blew coverage and left Arnold open for a long TD. Here it is.

https://youtu.be/BDScdgLYunM

I didn't really "pound the table" for Smith. I wanted us to sign him, because he wouldn't cost us anything as far as draft picks and he was just the best of the available TE's. I "pounded the table" to draft Tristan Wirfs. With Smith, I just thought he would be the best player in a bad situation. Listen, I hope Arnold turns out to be a great player. I really do, but I don't see him as a difference maker. Personally, I believe he will have about the same impact that O'Shaughnessy had for us last season, maybe a little better, but not much. I just don't think that is worth a 5th round pick. Comparing him to our current TE's is a little unfair, considering how bad our current crop is. The bar is set very low.

90% of this board wanted Wirfs while Dave wanted a guy that didn't want to be here.  I wanted JJ and Winfield as well.  Just like most on here wanted Kittle while Dave wanted trash

We need to draft Elam if we are staying out of the top 5

(09-27-2021, 01:49 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 01:48 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/APMarkLong/status/14...47302?s=19

Bodied lol.

Pretty much what I was saying.  I don't think this trade is because of his play on the field.  Henderson is a weird dude

Let's all give a crap what a nobody backup in a [BLEEP] room of nobody backups has to say.

Seriously. Not a fan of CJ at all... but who the [BLEEP] cares what backup [BLEEP] publix bagboys say?

(09-27-2021, 12:12 PM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]It wasn't something behind closed doors. It was wide open and been going on since draft night.

there it is.

(09-27-2021, 12:51 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 12:34 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]You have absolutely zero evidence that he's a good corner. Zero.

However, there is plenty of evidence that he's bad.

Plenty of evidence he's bad?  Lmao  He was 2nd team All SEC 2 years in college, 1st team his last year.  Only gave up one TD his whole college career.  He's only played in 10 games and his first NFL game he dominated and was player of the game.  He was clearly our best corner when you watched them play.  He has played 10 career games, if he gets healthy we will see how he does in Car.

Derek Cox had a fantastic first game with us.
So, sure, we'll say CJ was the second coming of Derek Cox.

The kid may have potential. But the fact that he spent as much time off the field as on renders that potential useless.

(09-27-2021, 04:10 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 12:12 PM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]It wasn't something behind closed doors. It was wide open and been going on since draft night.

there it is.

He was probably begging Caldwell to not draft him.

This trade is horrible on value and really should be fodder to fire the Front Office.

(09-27-2021, 04:17 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 12:51 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Plenty of evidence he's bad?  Lmao  He was 2nd team All SEC 2 years in college, 1st team his last year.  Only gave up one TD his whole college career.  He's only played in 10 games and his first NFL game he dominated and was player of the game.  He was clearly our best corner when you watched them play.  He has played 10 career games, if he gets healthy we will see how he does in Car.

Derek Cox had a fantastic first game with us.
So, sure, we'll say CJ was the second coming of Derek Cox.

The kid may have potential. But the fact that he spent as much time off the field as on renders that potential useless.

Yeah, and Ramsey had a bad back

Cause jags speedy divorce

(09-27-2021, 12:59 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I am quickly losing faith in this team. I never liked the Henderson selection and was very vocal about it. I was one of the many, many, many people on this board who were banging the table to draft Tristan Wirfs. It seemed like such an obvious choice at the time and Henderson seemed like just as much a reach as Chaisson was with our other pick in round one. We missed out though and I finally accepted it, knowing there was nothing I could do. I wanted Henderson to succeed and prove me wrong. Now, here we are with a terrible secondary and out of nowhere, we trade Henderson for a so-so TE and basically, the equivalent of a 4th round pick once the 3rd and 5th offset. Just another wasted first round selection by this team and yet another example of holding onto a guy (Caldwell) too long and letting him set this team back yet another year by his bad decisions. It's just so depressing.

Now, I have to ask, how long before we ditch K'Lavon Chaisson? He has been a disaster since coming here and only has one sack since turning pro. IMO, he and Henderson were such odd first round choices that I have to question whether Caldwell knew his days were numbered in Jacksonville and decided to tank that draft on purpose? His selections just seemed like such huge reaches.

Despite this, it still seems like we could have gotten a straight up 3rd round selection for Henderson, even if Dan Arnold were involved in the trade given Henderson's very limited time in the NFL, . He is young and still shows some potential. He certainly shows better ball skills than what I have seen from Tyson Campbell, although I will admit, that isn't setting the bar very high. I guess the confirmation that the Henderson pick was so bad, this early into his career, is a real letdown. Even though many of us believed it from the moment he was drafted, finally seeing him traded away for so little, finally made it hit home. We have wasted so much time and dug ourselves into such a deep hole over the decades that it almost seems hopeless. I'm still a HUGE Trevor Lawrence supporter and see tons of potential in him, but this team is so void of talent around him. It just seems like a never ending process of filling holes created by draft picks that never panned out.

I think we've banged this drum before, but Caldwell's biggest fault was overvaluing position especially early in his drafts. Henderson and Chiasson alike were reactionary picks to compensate for other, better players we failed to keep here long term.

The argument came up earlier, who was worse, Gene or Dave, and really you have to point to Gene - We have had no core team to build upon for so long that we continually over-draft to fill gaping holes in the roster, which not only robs you of better players that may not fill as glaring a need, but also allows other teams to acquire those better players and remain flexible in future drafts. And because of this, we are still in this endless cycle, pursuing players to fill a void rather than picking long-term value we can consider fixtures.

They both had their flaws. The current regime has their flaws. Until we can consistently get talented guys who can play, and want to do so in Jacksonville, we'll be repeating this song and dance every couple of years. It sucks, but dammit, I'm in love with this stupid laundry.

Go Jags.

(09-27-2021, 04:33 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 12:59 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I am quickly losing faith in this team. I never liked the Henderson selection and was very vocal about it. I was one of the many, many, many people on this board who were banging the table to draft Tristan Wirfs. It seemed like such an obvious choice at the time and Henderson seemed like just as much a reach as Chaisson was with our other pick in round one. We missed out though and I finally accepted it, knowing there was nothing I could do. I wanted Henderson to succeed and prove me wrong. Now, here we are with a terrible secondary and out of nowhere, we trade Henderson for a so-so TE and basically, the equivalent of a 4th round pick once the 3rd and 5th offset. Just another wasted first round selection by this team and yet another example of holding onto a guy (Caldwell) too long and letting him set this team back yet another year by his bad decisions. It's just so depressing.

Now, I have to ask, how long before we ditch K'Lavon Chaisson? He has been a disaster since coming here and only has one sack since turning pro. IMO, he and Henderson were such odd first round choices that I have to question whether Caldwell knew his days were numbered in Jacksonville and decided to tank that draft on purpose? His selections just seemed like such huge reaches.

Despite this, it still seems like we could have gotten a straight up 3rd round selection for Henderson, even if Dan Arnold were involved in the trade given Henderson's very limited time in the NFL, . He is young and still shows some potential. He certainly shows better ball skills than what I have seen from Tyson Campbell, although I will admit, that isn't setting the bar very high. I guess the confirmation that the Henderson pick was so bad, this early into his career, is a real letdown. Even though many of us believed it from the moment he was drafted, finally seeing him traded away for so little, finally made it hit home. We have wasted so much time and dug ourselves into such a deep hole over the decades that it almost seems hopeless. I'm still a HUGE Trevor Lawrence supporter and see tons of potential in him, but this team is so void of talent around him. It just seems like a never ending process of filling holes created by draft picks that never panned out.

I think we've banged this drum before, but Caldwell's biggest fault was overvaluing position especially early in his drafts. Henderson and Chiasson alike were reactionary picks to compensate for other, better players we failed to keep here long term.

The argument came up earlier, who was worse, Gene or Dave, and really you have to point to Gene - We have had no core team to build upon for so long that we continually over-draft to fill gaping holes in the roster, which not only robs you of better players that may not fill as glaring a need, but also allows other teams to acquire those better players and remain flexible in future drafts. And because of this, we are still in this endless cycle, pursuing players to fill a void rather than picking long-term value we can consider fixtures.

They both had their flaws. The current regime has their flaws. Until we can consistently get talented guys who can play, and want to do so in Jacksonville, we'll be repeating this song and dance every couple of years. It sucks, but dammit, I'm in love with this stupid laundry.

Go Jags.

Weren't you the same guy kept arguing this team should of drafted for need?  Lol

(09-27-2021, 11:49 AM)MoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 11:43 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]This trade once again raises the question:  Why is player retention such a problem for this team?

The few player we'ce drafted over the years that were actually worth keeping are gone.

This franchise is awful and I have a sinking suspicion the NFLPA has it out for the team. Those grievances that we know of are probably tip of the iceberg stuff. 

We mistreat players that perform on the field. They gave contracts early to the wrong players. The stories on Caldwell were horrible and it speaks very poorly about the owner. 

The owner tolerates all the wrong behavior and holds the players to a higher standard then his front office and coaches.

I am not a big pro player advocate but I can't imagine being with this team the past 12 years. It has been double talk and a complete nightmare outside of one year. And then the franchise kept pointing at 2017 as if they did something.

Overall, I am in agreement with you.

The few good layers we actually draft are almost always alienated by the team, and when it comes to the second contract, most of the top performers never get one.

Like Fournette, Henderson never even got close to the end of his first contract.

Khan tolerating it?  I'm beginning to think he ENCOURAGES this sort of thing.  It has happened way too often during his tenure as owner for me to think it's not policy at this point.

I have not heard any stories about Caldwell, other than the thing with Ramsey.

I shudder to think what will happen if Lawrence is all we expect him to be and it comes time to re-signing him.

(09-27-2021, 04:35 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-27-2021, 04:33 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]I think we've banged this drum before, but Caldwell's biggest fault was overvaluing position especially early in his drafts. Henderson and Chiasson alike were reactionary picks to compensate for other, better players we failed to keep here long term.

The argument came up earlier, who was worse, Gene or Dave, and really you have to point to Gene - We have had no core team to build upon for so long that we continually over-draft to fill gaping holes in the roster, which not only robs you of better players that may not fill as glaring a need, but also allows other teams to acquire those better players and remain flexible in future drafts. And because of this, we are still in this endless cycle, pursuing players to fill a void rather than picking long-term value we can consider fixtures.

They both had their flaws. The current regime has their flaws. Until we can consistently get talented guys who can play, and want to do so in Jacksonville, we'll be repeating this song and dance every couple of years. It sucks, but dammit, I'm in love with this stupid laundry.

Go Jags.

Weren't you the same guy kept arguing this team should of drafted for need?  Lol

no, I was arguing that need and talent intermingle to form value. I'm not going to waste effort restating that same argument, you'll still refuse to budge off your pedestal. It's what you do.

Are you saying that there were no other similarly talented or equally valuable players at R1 P9 or R1 P20 last year, and that Henderson and Chiasson were drafted because they were simply better than others, or do you think that the position they played weighed more heavily?