(10-27-2022, 01:19 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 01:11 PM)surfon Wrote: [ -> ]To me part of the prob with allen and walker is there is not consistent push up the middle so qds just step up. It does have some affect.
I don't buy it. Josh Allen was getting handled in his 1 Vs 1 in the clots loss on the road and for the most part was quiet against the Giants, who also had a banged up offensive line.
He's a groundhog pass rusher. That's all he's done over the last three years since his rookie season. He'll show up once per year and have a really, really good game and then you will barely hear anything out of him before that game and after that game.
Just not impressed anymore. Getting close to the QB is not the same as getting to the QB. He's not forcing any fumbles, he's not destroying QB's for yardage, he's not really moving the needle all that much.
Might as well flip him now for a potential offensive player going into next year. We know what this offense wants to do now. It's all about speed, speed and more speed. They want big, explosive plays. They want chunk plays. They want Lawrence slinging it 40 times per game. That's fine. Just get him the tools he needs to elevate his play and you can build a lead and scheme up things differently defensively.
Tying up your cap hit percentage in the double digits for a guy that's only had double digit sacks once, going back to his rookie year, is just foolish. He's not one of the Bosa's. He's not TJ Watt. He's not Cameron Jordan. Hell, he's not even a Chandler Jones in his prime. I would trade him now and sign a stop gap pass rusher next year if that's much of a concern to this fanbase with a guy that's on the roster now, essentially doing NOTHING.
(10-27-2022, 01:19 PM)Jaguar Warrior Wrote: [ -> ]Please, no. Are we really going into firesale mode AGAIN?
Trading away a RB that wasn't going to be here next year and an overrated "pass rusher" is not a fire sale. R-E-L-A-X. 2 - 5 with those guys on the roster by the way. So, there's that.
In Doug P.'s first year. We don't have confidence he can take some of our talented guys to the next level after a year or two?
Jags need good players not more draft picks. Dont trade anyone! Enough of other teams plucking our players like we are their practice squad.
It will be for a 4th, and I will be furious.
(10-27-2022, 01:23 PM)Jaguar Warrior Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 01:19 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I don't buy it. Josh Allen was getting handled in his 1 Vs 1 in the clots loss on the road and for the most part was quiet against the Giants, who also had a banged up offensive line.
He's a groundhog pass rusher. That's all he's done over the last three years since his rookie season. He'll show up once per year and have a really, really good game and then you will barely hear anything out of him before that game and after that game.
Just not impressed anymore. Getting close to the QB is not the same as getting to the QB. He's not forcing any fumbles, he's not destroying QB's for yardage, he's not really moving the needle all that much.
Might as well flip him now for a potential offensive player going into next year. We know what this offense wants to do now. It's all about speed, speed and more speed. They want big, explosive plays. They want chunk plays. They want Lawrence slinging it 40 times per game. That's fine. Just get him the tools he needs to elevate his play and you can build a lead and scheme up things differently defensively.
Tying up your cap hit percentage in the double digits for a guy that's only had double digit sacks once, going back to his rookie year, is just foolish. He's not one of the Bosa's. He's not TJ Watt. He's not Cameron Jordan. Hell, he's not even a Chandler Jones in his prime. I would trade him now and sign a stop gap pass rusher next year if that's much of a concern to this fanbase with a guy that's on the roster now, essentially doing NOTHING.
Trading away a RB that wasn't going to be here next year and an overrated "pass rusher" is not a fire sale. R-E-L-A-X. 2 - 5 with those guys on the roster by the way. So, there's that.
In Doug P.'s first year. We don't have confidence he can take some of our talented guys to the next level after a year or two?
He took a [BLEEP] show and turned them into a one possession away from winning games kind of football team. With a lot of new faces. Christian Kirk is NOT a true number one receiver. Zay Jones is NOT a true number one receiver. Marvin Jones is over the hill for the position and won't be here next year. He's good at what he does. Evan Engram didn't live up to the hype for the Giants, again, also sgined this year.
I am fully confident in Doug and Trevor IF they continue to go out and actually invest in the offense. They still have a lot of work to do. Still need to make a decision on Jawaan Taylor at RT. You have a rookie at Center now. You just signed Scherff for two years to be a stop gap solution at best.
You have to keep thinking ahead here. I don't think it's a fire sale or rebuild though. I saw this off season as a step in the right direction towards building a competent football team. People must have short memories or something because the Jaguars teams I remember from 2018 - 2021 were pure dog [BLEEP] at times and couldn't even hang in there half the time.
This team needs just a little bit more firepower on offense. And, again, not sure what all the fuss is about on Josh Allen. The guys been a dud since after his rookie year. I would be disappointed too if I spent all of that damn money on defense in free agency this off season and invested more draft picks towards that side of the ball early only to turn around and see that he's not reaping any benefit from it.
Time to part ways.
If we don't have the conversation start with 2 first round picks, or a first, second and then other compensation .... hang up the phone.
He had a great rookie year when our DLine had talent and the interior DLine actually got push. He had a down 2020 on a team that was devoid of talent after being gutted of the remaining Sacksonville members. Had a pretty good 2021 all things considered with 8 sacks and he single handedly won us the game against the Bills. This year he has 3 sacks in 7 games but has been the only consistent pressure threat.
Last week on Travon's sack, Allen actually got there first but didn't finish as the QB was able to step up out of his grip. He's getting the focus from opposing blocking schemes sliding his way, chipping etc. Would I like him to DOMINATE more? sure, would I like him to post better stats? Again sure, but he's the only guy from the eye test that's getting any pressure, QB's have a clean pocket as we have no interior rush outside of Key on 3rd downs with Foley Fatukasi out. He's 25 years old and just entering his prime .... you don't trade that away for a player who MIGHT be as good as him but in all likelihood the picks we get back from him are more likely to turn out to be Andre Branch 2.0 rather than Lawrence Taylor 2.0 or even another Josh Allen.
Josh Allen LOVES the Jacksonville area as his wife is involved in the community and his kids all go to school here. He's been vocal about wanting to resign here and get this team back to winning ways. When was the last time a high profile player/draft pick has WANTED to come to Jacksonville? Or heck even sign a second contract with us (ex: Jalen Ramsey, Yannick Ngakoue, Allen Robinson, DJ Chark etc.) We had to break the bank open for Malik Jackson, Calais Campbell, & Christian Kirk to come here. You don't cast out players that actually want to sign here for fair market value.
I remember a period of like 2005-2016 when we couldn't buy a sack. besides McCray's one 10 sack season we got excited about guys like: Ryan Davis, Andre Branch, Chris Clemons, Derrick Harvey, Quentin Groves, Aaron Kampman, Jared Odrick, Chris Smith. We had a DROUGHT of pressure producers, forget sacks. Just people who can get pressure on the QB or hurry a throw. For a literal decade. How spoiled are we that we even consider trading a guy who regularly hits the 7-8+ sack threshhold that those other Jags pass rushers could only dream of??
Re-Sign Josh Allen don't overthink it.
(10-27-2022, 01:36 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 01:23 PM)Jaguar Warrior Wrote: [ -> ]In Doug P.'s first year. We don't have confidence he can take some of our talented guys to the next level after a year or two?
He took a [BLEEP] show and turned them into a one possession away from winning games kind of football team. With a lot of new faces. Christian Kirk is NOT a true number one receiver. Zay Jones is NOT a true number one receiver. Marvin Jones is over the hill for the position and won't be here next year. He's good at what he does. Evan Engram didn't live up to the hype for the Giants, again, also sgined this year.
I am fully confident in Doug and Trevor IF they continue to go out and actually invest in the offense. They still have a lot of work to do. Still need to make a decision on Jawaan Taylor at RT. You have a rookie at Center now. You just signed Scherff for two years to be a stop gap solution at best.
You have to keep thinking ahead here. I don't think it's a fire sale or rebuild though. I saw this off season as a step in the right direction towards building a competent football team. People must have short memories or something because the Jaguars teams I remember from 2018 - 2021 were pure dog [BLEEP] at times and couldn't even hang in there half the time.
This team needs just a little bit more firepower on offense. And, again, not sure what all the fuss is about on Josh Allen. The guys been a dud since after his rookie year. I would be disappointed too if I spent all of that damn money on defense in free agency this off season and invested more draft picks towards that side of the ball early only to turn around and see that he's not reaping any benefit from it.
Time to part ways.
You want a Jamar Chase type of player while Trevor overthrows them by a mile away?
I’m not willing to pay him what he will ask for when he hits free agency. Unless something seriously changes.
(10-27-2022, 02:32 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]I’m not willing to pay him what he will ask for when he hits free agency. Unless something seriously changes.
Same stance. I think if the offer is right you have to consider pulling the trigger. Especially if it lands you a first round pick or early second round pick or another player to add on offense in the process.
If you wait and see next year? You might [BLEEP] around and find out he's not going to produce much and your window of getting anything out of him is now closed. I just haven't seen enough from him over the last three years to say I am confident he'll turn the corner.
(10-27-2022, 12:36 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ][rant]
What if the trade encompasses a 2nd and 3rd RD pick or a 2nd RD pick + player of solid value at a position of need offensively? Would you be tempted then?
Why would I try to make the D worse to improve the O when the O hasn't been the reason we've been losing?
We're about a year ahead of schedule with the "Let's trade Josh Allen" topic. This is legit next season if we're either struggling to fit contract into cap or if we still see nothing out of him.
If teams want to talk us out of dirt cheap good players, they need to overpay for the privelege.
(10-27-2022, 01:07 PM)MarleyJag Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 01:05 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]Jets have offered to trade us James Robinson in exchange for Josh Allen and a 6th round draft pick.
That made me laugh. Mostly because it sounds so #BecauseJaguars.
#becausebaalke is Josh and Jets conditional 5th to Jets for JRob.
(10-27-2022, 02:41 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 12:36 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ][rant]
What if the trade encompasses a 2nd and 3rd RD pick or a 2nd RD pick + player of solid value at a position of need offensively? Would you be tempted then?
Why would I try to make the D worse to improve the O when the O hasn't been the reason we've been losing?
We're about a year ahead of schedule with the "Let's trade Josh Allen" topic. This is legit next season if we're either struggling to fit contract into cap or if we still see nothing out of him.
If teams want to talk us out of dirt cheap good players, they need to overpay for the privelege.
It's a risk either way you look at it. I am choosing to place my bet on Josh Allen not turning the corner and not having much trade value if he goes another year barely getting into the 6 - 7 sacks range.
Defensively you're not getting it done with him. So, what's the point of keeping him on for the remainder of this year or next year if you feel you can land a 1st and/or 2nd RD pick for him? Or more?
Look at all the turnover this team is fixing to have in the off season next year. They went all in on defense this off season, they invested early picks on defense. This off season coming up is going to be offense centric with a few key additions here and there defensively.
I don't think we're a year ahead of schedule at all. I think they're right on schedule and they can get a good deal out of this now potentially and get better next year in a pretty solid class overall so far with the first three rounds shaping up already.
(10-27-2022, 12:40 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 12:38 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]God no.
This would mean pass rusher is our #1 need next season to go along with an outside receiver.
What pass rusher? Again, what pass rush is there on the team now? At this rate with or without Allen it's probably a need ANYWAY. So you might as well get the picks to improve elsewhere while making your cap situation that much better.
Everybody acts like this cat is hitting double digit sacks or something. He's not TJ Watt, he's not Cameron Jordan, etc. We're 2 - 5 with him. This is WITH the defense folding late in the 4th quarter with opportunities for him to make a difference and he's not doing it.
The bigger issue is that we have guys on the outside and nothing else helping out unless we take our LB out of coverage to blitz.
If we instead stop the continuous cycle of purging and rebuilding, we might be able to get some guys to help the OLB to shine. O, we could just keep starting from scratch. That's worked wonders for the past decade and a half, right?
He costs as much to keep as to cast aside this season. Next year he's affordable, and has shown that with support, he can achieve. So why not choose to get support instead?
(10-27-2022, 01:05 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]Jets have offered to trade us James Robinson in exchange for Josh Allen and a 6th round draft pick.
If JRob can rush the QB consistently, I'm all for making this deal happen.
Not a fan of trading allen
Keep him
(10-27-2022, 01:36 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 01:23 PM)Jaguar Warrior Wrote: [ -> ]In Doug P.'s first year. We don't have confidence he can take some of our talented guys to the next level after a year or two?
He took a [BLEEP] show and turned them into a one possession away from winning games kind of football team. With a lot of new faces. Christian Kirk is NOT a true number one receiver. Zay Jones is NOT a true number one receiver. Marvin Jones is over the hill for the position and won't be here next year. He's good at what he does. Evan Engram didn't live up to the hype for the Giants, again, also sgined this year.
I am fully confident in Doug and Trevor IF they continue to go out and actually invest in the offense. They still have a lot of work to do. Still need to make a decision on Jawaan Taylor at RT. You have a rookie at Center now. You just signed Scherff for two years to be a stop gap solution at best.
You have to keep thinking ahead here. I don't think it's a fire sale or rebuild though. I saw this off season as a step in the right direction towards building a competent football team. People must have short memories or something because the Jaguars teams I remember from 2018 - 2021 were pure dog [BLEEP] at times and couldn't even hang in there half the time.
This team needs just a little bit more firepower on offense. And, again, not sure what all the fuss is about on Josh Allen. The guys been a dud since after his rookie year. I would be disappointed too if I spent all of that damn money on defense in free agency this off season and invested more draft picks towards that side of the ball early only to turn around and see that he's not reaping any benefit from it.
Time to part ways.
Those offensive pieces (and pass rush, mind you) aren't getting fixed with 2nd rd or 3rd rd picks.
Or do you want another Smoot or Jawann Taylor to be your hope for future building?
(10-27-2022, 02:47 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 12:40 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]What pass rusher? Again, what pass rush is there on the team now? At this rate with or without Allen it's probably a need ANYWAY. So you might as well get the picks to improve elsewhere while making your cap situation that much better.
Everybody acts like this cat is hitting double digit sacks or something. He's not TJ Watt, he's not Cameron Jordan, etc. We're 2 - 5 with him. This is WITH the defense folding late in the 4th quarter with opportunities for him to make a difference and he's not doing it.
The bigger issue is that we have guys on the outside and nothing else helping out unless we take our LB out of coverage to blitz.
If we instead stop the continuous cycle of purging and rebuilding, we might be able to get some guys to help the OLB to shine. O, we could just keep starting from scratch. That's worked wonders for the past decade and a half, right?
He costs as much to keep as to cast aside this season. Next year he's affordable, and has shown that with support, he can achieve. So why not choose to get support instead?
(10-27-2022, 01:05 PM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]Jets have offered to trade us James Robinson in exchange for Josh Allen and a 6th round draft pick.
If JRob can rush the QB consistently, I'm all for making this deal happen.
He has support. That's my problem with him. Baalke went out and drafted Walker and Lloyd. He went out and signed Fatukasi, Williams, Key & Oluokon.
He hasn't had a consistently disruptive season since his rookie year and that was with Ngakoue and Campbell to piggy back off of. They went out and drafted Chaisson the following year and he didn't pan out.
At some point, you have to put it on the player and not the supporting cast. He was drafted to replace those guys. He can't provide the production they produced. It's as simple as that.
This is his fourth year and his best year was his rookie year. That's not good enough to justify waiting around another year to see if he's going to turn the corner or not.
He doesn't have it in him. Otherwise these lovely little "top ten pass rushing" statistics would have started turning more into actual QB sacks, FF's, INT's, etc.
I have seen enough out of him this year. I especially saw enough out of him over the last two weeks. It's time to move forward and start thinking about making the offense that much more explosive and that much more competent to where they can stack comfortable leads.
You can't do that when you're tying up potentially 15% of yearly cap hit percentage on one player that hasn't really done enough to justify that. All because the "market" commands said value. In spite of lack of production.
Lawrence gets lauded and praised around here "for doing enough", yet, he's not getting enough TD's to win these games. Yet, somehow, Allen gets a pass in year four because he's "almost there". Make it make sense.
(10-27-2022, 02:55 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 01:36 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]He took a [BLEEP] show and turned them into a one possession away from winning games kind of football team. With a lot of new faces. Christian Kirk is NOT a true number one receiver. Zay Jones is NOT a true number one receiver. Marvin Jones is over the hill for the position and won't be here next year. He's good at what he does. Evan Engram didn't live up to the hype for the Giants, again, also sgined this year.
I am fully confident in Doug and Trevor IF they continue to go out and actually invest in the offense. They still have a lot of work to do. Still need to make a decision on Jawaan Taylor at RT. You have a rookie at Center now. You just signed Scherff for two years to be a stop gap solution at best.
You have to keep thinking ahead here. I don't think it's a fire sale or rebuild though. I saw this off season as a step in the right direction towards building a competent football team. People must have short memories or something because the Jaguars teams I remember from 2018 - 2021 were pure dog [BLEEP] at times and couldn't even hang in there half the time.
This team needs just a little bit more firepower on offense. And, again, not sure what all the fuss is about on Josh Allen. The guys been a dud since after his rookie year. I would be disappointed too if I spent all of that damn money on defense in free agency this off season and invested more draft picks towards that side of the ball early only to turn around and see that he's not reaping any benefit from it.
Time to part ways.
Those offensive pieces (and pass rush, mind you) aren't getting fixed with 2nd rd or 3rd rd picks.
Or do you want another Smoot or Jawann Taylor to be your hope for future building?
Jawaan Taylor SHOULD be here next year. He's earned it. Those 2nd and 3rd RD picks can be packaged up to get a great player in RD1 or traded for another good player during the draft with teams looking to avoid getting into a tight cap situation over one player.
Do NOT trade Josh Allen unless a desperate team offers two first rounders (1% chance of this).
I'm getting more torn about this. I don't want to pay elite money to someone who's not elite and that's what it will take to keep him long term. However if we trade him we have to take a pass rusher high next year and there'e no guarantee they'll be an improvement. But if we're going to trade him he'll never have more value than he does now.
(10-27-2022, 02:56 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-27-2022, 02:47 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]The bigger issue is that we have guys on the outside and nothing else helping out unless we take our LB out of coverage to blitz.
If we instead stop the continuous cycle of purging and rebuilding, we might be able to get some guys to help the OLB to shine. O, we could just keep starting from scratch. That's worked wonders for the past decade and a half, right?
He costs as much to keep as to cast aside this season. Next year he's affordable, and has shown that with support, he can achieve. So why not choose to get support instead?
If JRob can rush the QB consistently, I'm all for making this deal happen.
He has support. That's my problem with him. Baalke went out and drafted Walker and Lloyd. He went out signed Fatukasi, Williams, Key & Oluokon.
He hasn't had a consistently disruptive season since his rookie year and that was with Ngakoue and Campbell to piggy back off of. They went out and drafted Chaisson the following year and he didn't pan out.
At some point, you have to put it on the player and not the supporting cast. He was drafted to replace those guys. He can't provide the production they produced. It's as simple as that.
This is his fourth year and his best year was his rookie year. That's not good enough to justify waiting around another year to see if he's going to turn the corner or not.
He doesn't have it in him. Otherwise these lovely little "top ten pass rushing" statistics would have started turning more into actual QB sacks, FF's, INT's, etc.
I have seen enough out of him this year. I especially saw enough out of him over the last two weeks. It's time to move forward and start thinking about being the offense that much more explosive and that much more competent to where they can stack comfortable leads.
You can't do that when your tying up potentially 15% of yearly cap hit percentage on one player that hasn't really done enough to justify that. All because the "market" commands said value. In spite of lack of production.
Lawrence gets lauded and praised around here "for doing enough", yet, he's not getting enough TD's to win these games. Yet, somehow, Allen gets a pass in year four because he's "almost there". Make it make sense.
(10-27-2022, 02:55 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Those offensive pieces (and pass rush, mind you) aren't getting fixed with 2nd rd or 3rd rd picks.
Or do you want another Smoot or Jawann Taylor to be your hope for future building?
Jawaan Taylor SHOULD be here next year. He's earned it. Those 2nd and 3rd RD picks can be packaged up to get a great player in RD1 or traded for another good player during the draft with teams looking to avoid getting into a tight cap situation over one player.
...notice how the pass rush began its disappearing act when Foley got hurt?
My thoughts are to improve the DE spots. Hamilton, Roy Rob, Key, Smoot, Gotsis all can be replaced with ease, and probably not even with premium darft capital. Rome wasn't built in a day, but they also didn't spend their days hammering away at the foundation. These kinds of moves are the ones bad teams make and continue to make while they spend years in the cellar.
You're mind's made up, though, and no amount of consideration to the contrary will sway you, so we'll just leave it there and move on.
(10-27-2022, 03:05 PM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ]I'm getting more torn about this. I don't want to pay elite money to someone who's not elite and that's what it will take to keep him long term. However if we trade him we have to take a pass rusher high next year and there'e no guarantee they'll be an improvement. But if we're going to trade him he'll never have more value than he does now.
Not completely true. Could always go after a Chandler Jones, Von Miller, etc. in the off season. That would be your ONE big signing for ONE year to hold you over while you invest in getting your pieces in place offensively to make Lawrence thrive.
If this offense can get off to faster starts, and, again, I am thinking long term here, you want to play to your teams overall strengths, etc. Your head coach is a QB's coach, a former NFL QB, the play caller, etc. You let the offense start putting up points and you can get a little bit more creative defensively.
I say, again, if the price is right, you have to consider pulling the trigger. Because, like you pointed out, you're going to pay this [BLEEP] guy elite money for below elite level play and that's [BLEEP]. We all know that.
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