(10-29-2022, 02:02 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 01:52 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Stats absolutely lie.
Often. They rarely give you the full picture of a player's performance IMO and can be easily used to deceive.
In Josh's case, the pressure numbers are too inconsistent for my taste. Up and down like a rollercoaster, with the low points lasting too long. I see your points/perspective. All valid.
I just value the production we do get from Allen more highly than you do.
Facts, you can't just look at a stat sheet. They lie all the time. If it was just about stats there wouldn't be any point of a combine. Guys like Timmy Chang, Kellen Moore etc. would of went first overall. If it was just about a sack number Robert Quinn would of got a lot more than a 4th, he had 18.5 sacks last year, everyone would want Yan but he gets passed around more than anyone. Allen at times when he he isn't getting a sack he makes great plays in the run game, pressures the QB etc. Allen has had a number of really good games this year. That last couple games he hasn't looked great but nobody on our team has.
If we had a guy like Chris Jones, Cox, Quinnen Williams etc. Our edge guys would have double the sacks imo.
(10-29-2022, 02:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]PFF grades. Yawn vs Allen
Allen has 3 sacks, Yawn has 6
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/yannick-ngakoue/10703
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/josh-allen/50235
If it was just about a sack number there grades would be reversed. Allen is a much better player than Yawn and it isnt even close.
(10-29-2022, 02:22 PM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]PFF grades. Yawn vs Allen
Allen has 3 sacks, Yawn has 6
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/yannick-ngakoue/10703
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/josh-allen/50235
If it was just about a sack number there grades would be reversed. Allen is a much better player than Yawn and it isnt even close.
I agree Allen is clearly a better player than Yawn. The question is is/can he be elite or is he just very good. We'll have to pay elite money to keep him longterm.
(10-29-2022, 02:30 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 01:34 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Here's my stance on it. Stats don't lie.
In baseball, maybe. Not in football though. I see people here routinely jump to conclusions from stat sheets and box scores and it's clear they've either forgotten the game they just watched, never watched it or don't know what they're looking at.
All of you. Give me one memorable game out of his 47 career appearances outside of the Buffalo game of last year. That's all I want. Has to jump out like a sore thumb. You can't do it.
Also, if stats lie all the time or don't truly matter? Explain to me why the top paid pass rushers in this league have the highest amounts of sacks on their stat sheet. Not "potential" sacks or "almost there" or "could have been" sacks.
(10-29-2022, 02:38 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:02 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Facts, you can't just look at a stat sheet. They lie all the time. If it was just about stats there wouldn't be any point of a combine. Guys like Timmy Chang, Kellen Moore etc. would of went first overall. If it was just about a sack number Robert Quinn would of got a lot more than a 4th, he had 18.5 sacks last year, everyone would want Yan but he gets passed around more than anyone. Allen at times when he he isn't getting a sack he makes great plays in the run game, pressures the QB etc. Allen has had a number of really good games this year. That last couple games he hasn't looked great but nobody on our team has.
If we had a guy like Chris Jones, Cox, Quinnen Williams etc. Our edge guys would have double the sacks imo.
(10-29-2022, 02:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]PFF grades. Yawn vs Allen
Allen has 3 sacks, Yawn has 6
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/yannick-ngakoue/10703
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/josh-allen/50235
If it was just about a sack number there grades would be reversed. Allen is a much better player than Yawn and it isnt even close.
(10-29-2022, 02:22 PM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ]I agree Allen is clearly a better player than Yawn. The question is is/can he be elite or is he just very good. We'll have to pay elite money to keep him longterm.
(10-29-2022, 02:30 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]In baseball, maybe. Not in football though. I see people here routinely jump to conclusions from stat sheets and box scores and it's clear they've either forgotten the game they just watched, never watched it or don't know what they're looking at.
All of you. Give me one memorable game out of his 47 career appearances outside of the Buffalo game of last year. That's all I want. Has to jump out like a sore thumb. You can't do it.
Also, if stats lie all the time or don't truly matter? Explain to me why the top paid pass rushers in this league have the highest amounts of sacks on their stat sheet. Not "potential" sacks or "almost there" or "could have been" sacks.
The Colts game this year he was dominant
(10-29-2022, 02:22 PM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:09 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]PFF grades. Yawn vs Allen
Allen has 3 sacks, Yawn has 6
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/yannick-ngakoue/10703
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/josh-allen/50235
If it was just about a sack number there grades would be reversed. Allen is a much better player than Yawn and it isnt even close.
I agree Allen is clearly a better player than Yawn. The question is is/can he be elite or is he just very good. We'll have to pay elite money to keep him longterm.
Allen will not get TJ Watt, Nick Bosa, or Garrett money
(10-29-2022, 02:54 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:22 PM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ]I agree Allen is clearly a better player than Yawn. The question is is/can he be elite or is he just very good. We'll have to pay elite money to keep him longterm.
Allen will not get TJ Watt, Nick Bosa, or Garrett money
What would be your best guess on how much he gets per year??
(10-29-2022, 02:46 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:38 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]All of you. Give me one memorable game out of his 47 career appearances outside of the Buffalo game of last year. That's all I want. Has to jump out like a sore thumb. You can't do it.
Also, if stats lie all the time or don't truly matter? Explain to me why the top paid pass rushers in this league have the highest amounts of sacks on their stat sheet. Not "potential" sacks or "almost there" or "could have been" sacks.
The Colts game this year he was dominant
2 sacks, 1 FF. That's fair. That's his M.O. Show up once per year in a game and then disappear until next year.
Jaguars Josh Allen exclusive fan club be like:
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media2.giphy.com/media/xT1R9Qf6mJxDIkoT3G/giphy.gif)
(10-29-2022, 03:03 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:54 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Allen will not get TJ Watt, Nick Bosa, or Garrett money
What would be your best guess on how much he gets per year??
I'd say a contract similar to Judon got in NE.
(10-29-2022, 03:03 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:54 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Allen will not get TJ Watt, Nick Bosa, or Garrett money
What would be your best guess on how much he gets per year??
He's going to want a minimum of $15M per year. Bet him and his agent come in looking for probably $17.5M per year or higher, citing "almost there" and "QB pressures" as a statistic to justify placing him in the same pay scale as guys that actually get to the QB. Like a Cameron Jordan, Von Miller, Trey Hendrickson, etc.
He's going to fleece this front office just like Myles Jack did. Bet.
(10-29-2022, 03:09 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:46 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]The Colts game this year he was dominant
2 sacks, 1 FF. That's fair. That's his M.O. Show up once per year in a game and then disappear until next year.
Jaguars Josh Allen exclusive fan club be like:
The sacks were great but even without the sacks he was dominant, i want to say he had like 12 or 13 pressures, it seemed like every other player he was chasing or pressuring the QB or making a play in the run game. The Colts in the last game last year as well he was a beast.
(10-29-2022, 03:09 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 02:46 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]The Colts game this year he was dominant
2 sacks, 1 FF. That's fair. That's his M.O. Show up once per year in a game and then disappear until next year.
Jaguars Josh Allen exclusive fan club be like:
(10-29-2022, 03:10 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:03 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]What would be your best guess on how much he gets per year??
I'd say a contract similar to Judon got in NE.
I’m thinking that’s around 16.5M$ per year?? Could be wrong.
Does this sound about right to you? If so, do you think Josh deserves that kind of contract?
(10-29-2022, 03:12 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:03 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]What would be your best guess on how much he gets per year??
He's going to want a minimum of $15M per year. Bet him and his agent come in looking for probably $17.5M per year or higher, citing "almost there" and "QB pressures" as a statistic to justify placing him in the same pay scale as guys that actually get to the QB. Like a Cameron Jordan, Von Miller, Trey Hendrickson, etc.
He's going to fleece this front office just like Myles Jack did. Bet.
Yeah. I’m thinking somewhere around 17-18M per year.
(10-29-2022, 03:21 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:09 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]2 sacks, 1 FF. That's fair. That's his M.O. Show up once per year in a game and then disappear until next year.
Jaguars Josh Allen exclusive fan club be like:
(10-29-2022, 03:10 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]I'd say a contract similar to Judon got in NE.
I’m thinking that’s around 16.5M$ per year?? Could be wrong.
Does this sound about right to you? If so, do you think Josh deserves that kind of contract?
(10-29-2022, 03:12 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]He's going to want a minimum of $15M per year. Bet him and his agent come in looking for probably $17.5M per year or higher, citing "almost there" and "QB pressures" as a statistic to justify placing him in the same pay scale as guys that actually get to the QB. Like a Cameron Jordan, Von Miller, Trey Hendrickson, etc.
He's going to fleece this front office just like Myles Jack did. Bet.
Yeah. I’m thinking somewhere around 17-18M per year.
If we could sign Allen for a 3 or 4 year deal at 16.5 mil per year I would have zero problems with that
(10-29-2022, 03:31 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:21 PM)wg171 Wrote: [ -> ]I’m thinking that’s around 16.5M$ per year?? Could be wrong.
Does this sound about right to you? If so, do you think Josh deserves that kind of contract?
Yeah. I’m thinking somewhere around 17-18M per year.
If we could sign Allen for a 3 or 4 year deal at 16.5 mil per year I would have zero problems with that
I would. That would put him above guys he shouldn't be above. He's not as consistent as the guys in that range. Bud Dupree, Emmanuel Ogbah, Leonard Floyd, Haason Reddick, Trey Hendrickson, Frank Clark, Danielle Hunter, Demarcus Lawrence, Randy Gregory, Robert Quinn & Matt Judon.
The majority of those guys above? Those 11 to 13 pressures they would see in a game would actually translate to impact plays, sacks, etc. He's not deserving of that. I would keep him at $15M and nothing more. If he hits specific targets on the stat sheet? I'll give you bonus money per sack beyond said threshold.
You get $15M as your average yearly salary. If you hit 8.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $1M. If you hit 10.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $2M. If you hit the single season franchise mark or better of 14.5? I'll give you $5M.
(10-29-2022, 03:39 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:31 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we could sign Allen for a 3 or 4 year deal at 16.5 mil per year I would have zero problems with that
I would. That would put him above guys he shouldn't be above. He's not as consistent as the guys in that range. Bud Dupree, Emmanuel Ogbah, Leonard Floyd, Haason Reddick, Trey Hendrickson, Frank Clark, Danielle Hunter, Demarcus Lawrence, Randy Gregory, Robert Quinn & Matt Judon.
The majority of those guys above? Those 11 to 13 pressures they would see in a game would actually translate to impact plays, sacks, etc. He's not deserving of that. I would keep him at $15M and nothing more. If he hits specific targets on the stat sheet? I'll give you bonus money per sack beyond said threshold.
You get $15M as your average yearly salary. If you hit 8.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $1M. If you hit 10.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $2M. If you hit the single season franchise mark or better of 14.5? I'll give you $5M.
How much did we supposedly offer Yawn. I know it's a different front office but I think they would offer that no?
(10-29-2022, 03:39 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:31 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we could sign Allen for a 3 or 4 year deal at 16.5 mil per year I would have zero problems with that
I would. That would put him above guys he shouldn't be above. He's not as consistent as the guys in that range. Bud Dupree, Emmanuel Ogbah, Leonard Floyd, Haason Reddick, Trey Hendrickson, Frank Clark, Danielle Hunter, Demarcus Lawrence, Randy Gregory, Robert Quinn & Matt Judon.
The majority of those guys above? Those 11 to 13 pressures they would see in a game would actually translate to impact plays, sacks, etc. He's not deserving of that. I would keep him at $15M and nothing more. If he hits specific targets on the stat sheet? I'll give you bonus money per sack beyond said threshold.
You get $15M as your average yearly salary. If you hit 8.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $1M. If you hit 10.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $2M. If you hit the single season franchise mark or better of 14.5? I'll give you $5M.
So you would take Yawn over Allen?
(10-29-2022, 04:29 PM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:39 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I would. That would put him above guys he shouldn't be above. He's not as consistent as the guys in that range. Bud Dupree, Emmanuel Ogbah, Leonard Floyd, Haason Reddick, Trey Hendrickson, Frank Clark, Danielle Hunter, Demarcus Lawrence, Randy Gregory, Robert Quinn & Matt Judon.
The majority of those guys above? Those 11 to 13 pressures they would see in a game would actually translate to impact plays, sacks, etc. He's not deserving of that. I would keep him at $15M and nothing more. If he hits specific targets on the stat sheet? I'll give you bonus money per sack beyond said threshold.
You get $15M as your average yearly salary. If you hit 8.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $1M. If you hit 10.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $2M. If you hit the single season franchise mark or better of 14.5? I'll give you $5M.
How much did we supposedly offer Yawn. I know it's a different front office but I think they would offer that no?
19 mil per year was reported. I think Allen will get 18- 20mil. per
(10-29-2022, 04:45 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 03:39 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I would. That would put him above guys he shouldn't be above. He's not as consistent as the guys in that range. Bud Dupree, Emmanuel Ogbah, Leonard Floyd, Haason Reddick, Trey Hendrickson, Frank Clark, Danielle Hunter, Demarcus Lawrence, Randy Gregory, Robert Quinn & Matt Judon.
The majority of those guys above? Those 11 to 13 pressures they would see in a game would actually translate to impact plays, sacks, etc. He's not deserving of that. I would keep him at $15M and nothing more. If he hits specific targets on the stat sheet? I'll give you bonus money per sack beyond said threshold.
You get $15M as your average yearly salary. If you hit 8.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $1M. If you hit 10.5 sacks? I'll give you an extra $2M. If you hit the single season franchise mark or better of 14.5? I'll give you $5M.
So you would take Yawn over Allen?
(10-29-2022, 04:29 PM)WYjagsfan Wrote: [ -> ]How much did we supposedly offer Yawn. I know it's a different front office but I think they would offer that no?
19 mil per year was reported. I think Allen will get 18- 20mil. per
They're the same guy IMHO. Ngakoue is at $13M at the moment. Which is about where he should be. As well as Allen (stats wise). And that's being generous IMHO.
If Allen gets anything near $18M he'll end up fleecing this front office. Just like Myles Jack did. Not surprising.
(10-29-2022, 05:02 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 04:45 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]So you would take Yawn over Allen?
19 mil per year was reported. I think Allen will get 18- 20mil. per
They're the same guy IMHO. Ngakoue is at $13M at the moment. Which is about where he should be. As well as Allen (stats wise). And that's being generous IMHO.
If Allen gets anything near $18M he'll end up fleecing this front office. Just like Myles Jack did. Not surprising.
The market has obviously inflated a bit since then though. I just worry if we let him leave any replacement could easily be a downgrade.
(10-29-2022, 05:02 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 04:45 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]So you would take Yawn over Allen?
19 mil per year was reported. I think Allen will get 18- 20mil. per
They're the same guy IMHO. Ngakoue is at $13M at the moment. Which is about where he should be. As well as Allen (stats wise). And that's being generous IMHO.
If Allen gets anything near $18M he'll end up fleecing this front office. Just like Myles Jack did. Not surprising.
Yawn has a high sack number pretty much every year. They aren't close to the same player. Yawn is a pass rushing specialist, Allen is a complete football player. He is good against the run and can also drop in coverage if needed. Allen is the least of my worries on this team, much bigger issues to worry about. It's odd the value you put on a sack stat and then think Yawn is only worth 13 mil per year
(10-29-2022, 05:25 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (10-29-2022, 05:02 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]They're the same guy IMHO. Ngakoue is at $13M at the moment. Which is about where he should be. As well as Allen (stats wise). And that's being generous IMHO.
If Allen gets anything near $18M he'll end up fleecing this front office. Just like Myles Jack did. Not surprising.
Yawn has a high sack number pretty much every year. They aren't close to the same player. Yawn is a pass rushing specialist, Allen is a complete football player. He is good against the run and can also drop in coverage if needed. Allen is the least of my worries on this team, much bigger issues to worry about. It's odd the value you put on a sack stat and then think Yawn is only worth 13 mil per year
Allen is a complete football player. I agree. And by complete I mean he completely disappears in Q4's.
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(10-27-2022, 06:37 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ][quote="NoShoes" pid="1498609" dateline="1666908730"]
Josh Allen stole caldrics girl lol. Only reason to explain the hate.
He’s a good not great player with blue chip potential on a roster that doesn’t have enough of either. Letting him leave would be moronic without multiple first rounders and even then I wouldn’t do it.
It's not hate. It's business and realism being factored in here. Blue Chip players are not what you're looking for when you invest a 7th overall selection on them. You're looking for consistency and multiple games with clear impact being showcased.
He's living up to the homerism hype on here and not the actual metrics. I am not getting swept up in any of that. I just think if the offer is right? You have to take it.
When you tie up large portions of your cap percentages on one specific player? You end up paying the price elsewhere. Right now the attention is on Lawrence, your generational QB, and Doug, your offensive minded headcoach.
The aim should be to build around those two minds and let the defense feed off the offense building and establishing leads. The Chiefs shipped Hill off and yeah, Mahomes is doing enough to win games but they are missing that threat still. That's why they just forked a 3rd and 6th RD pick over today for Toney from the Giants.
Why did they trade Hill? Because they had
too much tied up between Frank Clark and Chris Jones defensively. Two guys that have little impact on that teams success overall. They have been in a lot of close games this year. Barely winning two of them. Not because of Clark and Jones getting it done defensively but because Mahomes bailing them out offensively.
We need to retool our way of thinking. The defense had all of the attention in this off season. The goal was to build around Allen. He has not shown any true benefit of these investments in seven games. We need to get better at scoring points if this Blue Chip pass rusher can't show up in crunch time. The pass rush has been non existent and the points surrendered in the 4th quarter in closely contested games is indicative enough of this.
https://www.nfl.com/news/giants-need-to-...eckers-and-
https://www.nfl.com/news/giants-need-to-...eckers-and-