It's funny Bigsby was potentially one of our better value picks yet also wasn't particularly a need. I reckon we'll look back and he'll be an asset.
Ettiene did struggle particularly near the end to maintain the workload we were asking. Having a similar but slightly worse version will allow him to stay fresher and less likely to get injured. Plus perhaps we can use it to free him up as a pass catcher more. RB committees is the modern way, having a good one should make us look good.
I liked the choice of tackle and TE in rd1/2, RB questionable. I think for most the issue seems to be the ulinability to trade back into Rd3. Ultimately we'll never know how achievable or not that was.
Out of interest what were the other trades back into Rd 3?
(04-30-2023, 02:30 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Baalke can't draft past round 3.
His past 2 drafts with us have all been garbage after round 3 and pretty much all of his drafts with the 49ers were garbage after round 3.
Don't see any reason why this draft will be any different.
I think this is true of most gms. Teams occasionally have 4th + rounders starting but it's not a lot.
(04-29-2023, 10:56 PM)Thewitnessofsolinvictus Wrote: [ -> ] (04-29-2023, 10:43 PM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]So you think it was a good pick?
Yes. A short-yardage running back coupled with a fullback can negate or mitigate the need of finding a starting defensive back or defensive lineman, but not vice versa. A starting defensive back or defensive lineman won't necessarily negate or mitigate the need for a short-yardage RB or FB. Whether it will be a good pick is yet to be determined.
Back to the point- a starter at what position?
It's irrelevent. You don't spend a 3rd on someone that
you know is going to be no more than a backup. He has zero potential to be starter with Etienne as the feature back.
Zero. Get it?
VERY poor value pick. OG, OT, DT, S, CB, Edge...that's six that I valued more than an RB and have the potential to start or get much more significant playing time than Bigsby. It was a huge head-scratcher.
(04-30-2023, 05:13 AM)irontrooper83 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 02:30 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Baalke can't draft past round 3.
His past 2 drafts with us have all been garbage after round 3 and pretty much all of his drafts with the 49ers were garbage after round 3.
Don't see any reason why this draft will be any different.
This.
Last year (on top of his day 3 history as you already pointed out) there was another good exemple of that that had consequences this year too: Baalke used a 5th and 2 6th rounders to move up for short yardage RB Snoop Connor.
He was so good in fact that he decided to spend a valuable 3rd rounder on another RB this year (who I think is a good player, not a star, but that's not the point) all on top of having a 1st round starter and good depth with Hasty and Johnson.
I don't hate the players we drafted although I would have preferred a different strategy. I liked other TEs but on Strange I will trust Doug evaluation and how he wants to utilize him.
The guy looks like he can move and has great hands on top of being a capable blocker so again I'll trust Doug.
I don't buy that Baalke couldn't find willing partners to trade up in a draft that was historic in terms of trades being executed. It all depends how much he was offering.
I think he had a great day 1 as I loved the Anton Harrison pick both from a talent standpoint and strategic standpoint (protect Trevor, get ready to replace Cam ASAP, offers versatility and I trust Rauschner judgment on the guy) while accumulating more picks.
I think that after that Baalke probably failed to predict how the board would fall and some "I'm smarter than you" tendency came up in him.
It's speculation of course but as it seems that they missed out on some guys they wanted to trade up for I think he that it was partially because he wasn't decisive enough with the trade up package he was offering (I know better, I'll keep trading back and came back later again line of though.....too bad the talent pool was drying up and later picks were losing value to other teams) and partially because probably there was an unexpected sudden run on some guys they were eyeing.
We ended up drafting mostly backups even on day 2. Other than TE where our TE room was basically zero depth level they added RB where we have a good room already and LB where they invested massively over the last 3 years and it's hardly a need.
Again, I don't hate the players and we could have found some gems on day 3, that's not the point. I think they ended up scrambling as they spent months talking about needing to invest at the pass rush and Doug Pederson was big on that on pre draft but the board feel how they weren't expecting and them possibly being cheap with trading up after day 1 made them run out of their favourite options there and at other positions.
I wish they'd be way more aggressive on day 2 right away rather than getting 200000000 picks for day 3 and next year.
Again though: I like some of these players and I'll root for them. Some of them could be heavy contributors right away (other than the obvious Harrison I think Strange could be big for us soon) or down the road (I love the way Parker Washington moves and catches, in an ideal world he turns out to be another Christian Kirk in a couple of years, Antonio Johnson could replace Jenkins and so on).
Let's just hope a couple of others are the unexpected gems that could give the team cheap help.
Realistically more than half of day 3 picks won't make the team will be on PS so coaches job to try and develop some diamonds there.
Nice summary. I agree with each of your points- especially Baalke's "I'm smarter than you" tendency.
(04-30-2023, 10:16 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (04-29-2023, 10:56 PM)Thewitnessofsolinvictus Wrote: [ -> ]Yes. A short-yardage running back coupled with a fullback can negate or mitigate the need of finding a starting defensive back or defensive lineman, but not vice versa. A starting defensive back or defensive lineman won't necessarily negate or mitigate the need for a short-yardage RB or FB. Whether it will be a good pick is yet to be determined.
Back to the point- a starter at what position?
It's irrelevent. You don't spend a 3rd on someone that you know is going to be no more than a backup. He has zero potential to be starter with Etienne as the feature back. Zero. Get it? VERY poor value pick. OG, OT, DT, S, CB, Edge...that's six that I valued more than an RB and have the potential to start or get much more significant playing time than Bigsby. It was a huge head-scratcher.
People surely made similar comments about Alvin kamara.
(04-30-2023, 10:25 AM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 05:13 AM)irontrooper83 Wrote: [ -> ]This.
Last year (on top of his day 3 history as you already pointed out) there was another good exemple of that that had consequences this year too: Baalke used a 5th and 2 6th rounders to move up for short yardage RB Snoop Connor.
He was so good in fact that he decided to spend a valuable 3rd rounder on another RB this year (who I think is a good player, not a star, but that's not the point) all on top of having a 1st round starter and good depth with Hasty and Johnson.
I don't hate the players we drafted although I would have preferred a different strategy. I liked other TEs but on Strange I will trust Doug evaluation and how he wants to utilize him.
The guy looks like he can move and has great hands on top of being a capable blocker so again I'll trust Doug.
I don't buy that Baalke couldn't find willing partners to trade up in a draft that was historic in terms of trades being executed. It all depends how much he was offering.
I think he had a great day 1 as I loved the Anton Harrison pick both from a talent standpoint and strategic standpoint (protect Trevor, get ready to replace Cam ASAP, offers versatility and I trust Rauschner judgment on the guy) while accumulating more picks.
I think that after that Baalke probably failed to predict how the board would fall and some "I'm smarter than you" tendency came up in him.
It's speculation of course but as it seems that they missed out on some guys they wanted to trade up for I think he that it was partially because he wasn't decisive enough with the trade up package he was offering (I know better, I'll keep trading back and came back later again line of though.....too bad the talent pool was drying up and later picks were losing value to other teams) and partially because probably there was an unexpected sudden run on some guys they were eyeing.
We ended up drafting mostly backups even on day 2. Other than TE where our TE room was basically zero depth level they added RB where we have a good room already and LB where they invested massively over the last 3 years and it's hardly a need.
Again, I don't hate the players and we could have found some gems on day 3, that's not the point. I think they ended up scrambling as they spent months talking about needing to invest at the pass rush and Doug Pederson was big on that on pre draft but the board feel how they weren't expecting and them possibly being cheap with trading up after day 1 made them run out of their favourite options there and at other positions.
I wish they'd be way more aggressive on day 2 right away rather than getting 200000000 picks for day 3 and next year.
Again though: I like some of these players and I'll root for them. Some of them could be heavy contributors right away (other than the obvious Harrison I think Strange could be big for us soon) or down the road (I love the way Parker Washington moves and catches, in an ideal world he turns out to be another Christian Kirk in a couple of years, Antonio Johnson could replace Jenkins and so on).
Let's just hope a couple of others are the unexpected gems that could give the team cheap help.
Realistically more than half of day 3 picks won't make the team will be on PS so coaches job to try and develop some diamonds there.
Nice summary. I agree with each of your points- especially Baalke's "I'm smarter than you" tendency.
That line is probably the most used line against gms ever.
(04-30-2023, 10:42 AM)HardcoreMoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 10:16 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]It's irrelevent. You don't spend a 3rd on someone that you know is going to be no more than a backup. He has zero potential to be starter with Etienne as the feature back. Zero. Get it? VERY poor value pick. OG, OT, DT, S, CB, Edge...that's six that I valued more than an RB and have the potential to start or get much more significant playing time than Bigsby. It was a huge head-scratcher.
People surely made similar comments about Alvin kamara.
(04-30-2023, 10:25 AM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ]Nice summary. I agree with each of your points- especially Baalke's "I'm smarter than you" tendency.
That line is probably the most used line against gms ever.
LOL. Because Kamara is the same type of back as Bigsby.
(04-30-2023, 11:07 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 10:42 AM)HardcoreMoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]People surely made similar comments about Alvin kamara.
That line is probably the most used line against gms ever.
LOL. Because Kamara is the same type of back as Bigsby.
Yeah. Crazy comp to throw around. If anybody had a Kamara comp it was Gibbs who the Lions took. Bigsby is concerning. 8 fumbles in 540 career attempts is no bueno for me.
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Everyone always thinks they have the next kamara lol
(04-30-2023, 11:18 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 11:07 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]LOL. Because Kamara is the same type of back as Bigsby.
Yeah. Crazy comp to throw around. If anybody had a Kamara comp it was Gibbs who the Lions took. Bigsby is concerning. 8 fumbles in 540 career attempts is no bueno for me.
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Yep, saw that. Not an endearing quality for a short-yardage back.
I had no problem with Harrison. Strange was not expected but I like him as a player and we obviously needed a TE. Bigsby was just baffling. My verbal reaction was, "A [BLEEP] running back?". Wreaked of a Snoop Connor pick. At least we didn't trade up to take him. So I guess this means Connor was a complete waste of a pick? I like all of the day 3 stuff but it'll be interesting to see who makes the team and which are actually contributors. That's a whole lot of lower picks to put hope in.
Not comparing Bigsby to Kamara. When you make the pick and you already have Ingram people wonder why you make the pick. If Bigsby ends up good it'll be a great pick. If he doesn't it's bad.
(04-30-2023, 12:05 PM)HardcoreMoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]Not comparing Bigsby to Kamara. When you make the pick and you already have Ingram people wonder why you make the pick. If Bigsby ends up good it'll be a great pick. If he doesn't it's bad.
And once again, two completely different situations. Ingram was entering his SEVENTH year. They needed an RB.
(04-30-2023, 11:18 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 11:07 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]LOL. Because Kamara is the same type of back as Bigsby.
Yeah. Crazy comp to throw around. If anybody had a Kamara comp it was Gibbs who the Lions took. Bigsby is concerning. 8 fumbles in 540 career attempts is no bueno for me.
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That's definitely a bad stat, but ball security can be coached. ETN was a butter fingers in college and last season here. You could see his improvements by season's end.
(04-30-2023, 12:05 PM)HardcoreMoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]Not comparing Bigsby to Kamara. When you make the pick and you already have Ingram people wonder why you make the pick. If Bigsby ends up good it'll be a great pick. If he doesn't it's bad.
I understand though. People thought Ingram had plenty in the tank. I guess you can’t have too many good running backs especially with there being so many good ones and it being an undervalued position these days.
(04-30-2023, 02:18 PM)Jag88 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 12:05 PM)HardcoreMoJagFan Wrote: [ -> ]Not comparing Bigsby to Kamara. When you make the pick and you already have Ingram people wonder why you make the pick. If Bigsby ends up good it'll be a great pick. If he doesn't it's bad.
I understand though. People thought Ingram had plenty in the tank. I guess you can’t have too many good running backs especially with there being so many good ones and it being an undervalued position these days.
And they get hurt very easily. I don't know if Tank Bigsby will be good or not but the idea of taking a RB in the third equals bad value doesn't seem true. 3rd round seems like the sweet spot for RBs and I also believe they see Tank as a starting level RB.
I don't believe they saw Snoop as that, but more as a change of pace guy.
(04-30-2023, 10:16 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (04-29-2023, 10:56 PM)Thewitnessofsolinvictus Wrote: [ -> ]Yes. A short-yardage running back coupled with a fullback can negate or mitigate the need of finding a starting defensive back or defensive lineman, but not vice versa. A starting defensive back or defensive lineman won't necessarily negate or mitigate the need for a short-yardage RB or FB. Whether it will be a good pick is yet to be determined.
Back to the point- a starter at what position?
It's irrelevent. You don't spend a 3rd on someone that you know is going to be no more than a backup. He has zero potential to be starter with Etienne as the feature back. Zero. Get it? VERY poor value pick. OG, OT, DT, S, CB, Edge...that's six that I valued more than an RB and have the potential to start or get much more significant playing time than Bigsby. It was a huge head-scratcher.
I get it. I still disagree (on the Bigsby pick). There's no way for me to prove this to you, but usually I would agree with what you posted. In my mind, the merits of value when it comes to drafting you put forth ring true. Usually.
But Trevor Lawrence isn't usual, and I'm sold on the man. Draft whatever it takes to keep him on the field. I can see how a pounder RB could help with that more often, and at a sometimes more crucial juncture than a DT, S, CB, or edge. Hell, the 7th Rd FB could help with that too. I've made half-joking posts about the need for a FB over the past few months, but it's really just a personal desire to see the I-form come back a little.
I think we agree Baalke took a risk setting aside value to address a specific, situational need. I gather you think the risk should be avoided. I hope the risk pays off. You'll probably end up being right.
(04-30-2023, 05:35 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 05:29 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Balkes late draft blunders are soley based on the fact that he goes out of his way to either find somebody who is freakishly athletic with underwhelming game tape (reason they fall) or somebody who was projected to go higher, but had a serious injury.
In other words, he takes the boom or bust approach. And it typically fails. But with that being said, most teams don't find great players late in the draft in general, it's even more of a crapshoot than the first 2 or 3 rounds.
I think that's a reasonable approach. If you don't do that, you're basically saying "I think this guy definitely belongs in the 6th round." Why draft guys who predictably suck? Why not draft guys who look like they have a chance to become something?
No I agree, I have no issue with the approach. But I think this is why it's more likely for him to have more misses than say, a team that takes the overall BAP who may be an okay contributor and not deemed a complete waste.
(04-30-2023, 05:47 AM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]Jacksonville Jaguars: B
Top needs entering the draft: CB, OT, DE, OLB, TE
Jaguars general manager Trent Baalke made two trades down in Round 1, acquiring extra fourth-, fifth- and seventh-round picks in the process. That's a coup for dropping down just three spots and still getting an offensive tackle who could start as a rookie. With Cam Robinson facing a suspension for violating the NFL's performance-enhancing drug policy, Anton Harrison (27) might have to be thrown into the fire on the left side. Harrison allowed just one sack over the past two seasons. He had a lot of fans inside the NFL.
If Baalke & Co. didn't go with a tackle in the first round, I thought they might go with a tight end. The Jags filled that need with Brenton Strange (61) in Round 2. Strange had been rising since the combine; I went back to study his tape after his combine workout, and I liked what I saw. He has the talent to turn into a solid pass-catcher. I also liked the value for edge rusher Yasir Abdullah (136) and safety Antonio Johnson (160) on Day 3, but I would have gone with running back Roschon Johnson over Tank Bigsby (88) in the third round. Bigsby is a physical runner, but does he have the speed to rip off chunk yardage? It was just a little high for me.
Jacksonville ended up with six selections in the final two rounds, and my favorite was wideout Parker Washington (185), who has a chance to contribute early out of the slot. Baalke took a few fliers late, which I always recommend.
There's not much flash about this class, but the substance is important, as Harrison and Strange fill holes and have high-level potential.
Kipers grade and write up on the jags draft. Echos what some of.the more level.headed people on the board were saying.
Both Doug and Trent have said he fits a need for short yardage situations, his speed in terms of breaking a big run off isn't really a concern. That's what ETN is for.
(04-30-2023, 11:20 AM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2023, 11:18 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah. Crazy comp to throw around. If anybody had a Kamara comp it was Gibbs who the Lions took. Bigsby is concerning. 8 fumbles in 540 career attempts is no bueno for me.
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Yep, saw that. Not an endearing quality for a short-yardage back.
I had no problem with Harrison. Strange was not expected but I like him as a player and we obviously needed a TE. Bigsby was just baffling. My verbal reaction was, "A [BLEEP] running back?". Wreaked of a Snoop Connor pick. At least we didn't trade up to take him. So I guess this means Connor was a complete waste of a pick? I like all of the day 3 stuff but it'll be interesting to see who makes the team and which are actually contributors. That's a whole lot of lower picks to put hope in.
Snoop was a waste of multiple picks. They traded up to get him remember.
And taking another RB in round 3 was just as dumb.
Our last 2 draft picks in 1st round have been versatile plays
E.g. walker being about to play thru the edge and middle and Harrison being able to play RT LT and even G
I liked Oeshers post today. Us fans view the draft through the eyes of the media for months. Maybe even years. So we view value or not through those eyes, which may or may not be correct in the league.
As was noted today they didn't do much interviewing with Strange because they didn't want to leave a "paper trail" that they were after him.
All that will matter ultimately is do those players succeed or fail. And yes the drafting of Bigsby makes it seem likely Snoop was a miss.