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Quote:Can you provide a source? If this is correct, then that's definitely an issue that needs to be corrected.


But is this issue adv immigration issue or a welfare fraud issue?

 

http://cis.org/Cost-Welfare-Immigrant-Native-Households

 

This is considered to be a conservative source.  I have already shared with you the primary complaint.  The data seems to be in order, though.

 

You are correct in that this is an advanced immigration issue.  The the libertarian camp is split on whether or not there should be open borders.  I think the answer is obvious as long as citizen safety is maintained and there is no welfare state.  The former of these two issues is not a pressing issue.  It is a terrible concern for women coming into the US... I think it's like 80% of women are raped while trying to cross the border.  That does pour over somewhat into US cities, but is fairly diluted as a whole.  The latter issue, on the other hand, is a real concern for the future of the US budget.  

 

The more I learn about welfare, the more it bothers me.  I really don't mind having a safety net policy in place.  I am not a libertarian, or a democrat, or republican.  I just try to think of the best way to maximize our resources, protect our citizens, and help out humanity when you are able.  I think welfare is an anchor.  You don't see people escaping it.  Studies show that there is a slight decrease in welfare among second generation Hispanics, but that the third and fourth generations become dependent upon it.  When we look at our immigration policies, seeing if people are assimilating and thriving is an important part of the equation for native residents.  I think this is tangential to the discussion we are currently having (as that looks at Hispanic immigration and not just illegal immigration), but I think if we were really looking into the potential issues, we could at least agree that we need to curtail illegal immigration and make strides to reduce welfare abuse.

 

Here's the source for my last statement:

 

http://cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/generations.html

Quote:Here's the hyperbole. Deportation riot squads.


The whole "Our economy would be in ruins without latinos doing menial jobs" thing is always the default argument. The only part of the country somewhat dependent on undocumented workers is in the rural southwest where work visas are very easily issued to those who want to work the fields. It really isn't a big deal. Its kind of degrading to always lump together 11 million people into being landscapers and field workers.


I don't think deporting 11 million people is an attainable goal now. I'm perfectly happy just deporting the illegals as they are encountered. There is no need to go rounding people up. If Trump wants to try, more power to him.

Is 'deportation riot squads' truly hyperbole? I've seen his campaign team (while they last). I've seen the flames of bigotry fanned and one of his major directives is to target people who can only be targeted based on physical appearance. You don't think the paste eating mouth breathers who have already been incited to violence and vitriol wouldn't jump at the chance to "make 'Murica great again" by harassing and attacking those they suspect are here illegally? You don't see how anyone who looks remotely ethnic could be detained for questioning? So any legally born or naturalized citizen will be subject to interrogation based on physical appearance alone? This is freedom?


You can mock the argument many Americans have become dependent on the labor of illegal immigrants, but these people are doing jobs that few Americans would do.


And now you're comfortable just deporting the ones they come across. $450B and you're okay lowering the bar. Imagine if $450B was spent on something that would actually benefit the average American instead of this farce. It's kind of a lot of money.

Quote:Is 'deportation riot squads' truly hyperbole? I've seen his campaign team (while they last). I've seen the flames of bigotry fanned and one of his major directives is to target people who can only be targeted based on physical appearance. You don't think the paste eating mouth breathers who have already been incited to violence and vitriol wouldn't jump at the chance to "make 'Murica great again" by harassing and attacking those they suspect are here illegally? You don't see how anyone who looks remotely ethnic could be detained for questioning? So any legally born or naturalized citizen will be subject to interrogation based on physical appearance alone? This is freedom?


You can mock the argument many Americans have become dependent on the labor of illegal immigrants, but these people are doing jobs that few Americans would do.


And now you're comfortable just deporting the ones they come across. $450B and you're okay lowering the bar. Imagine if $450B was spent on something that would actually benefit the average American instead of this farce. It's kind of a lot of money.

 

Yes, it truly is hyperbole.  How have these paste eating mouth breathers not been incited to violence already and how will the fact that they would now know they are getting their way provoke them to violence?  It's not this demographic that is violently rioting and holding entire cities hostage at present.

 

No, I don't see how anyone who looks remotely ethnic could be detained for questioning without reasonable suspicion.  Again, enforcing current immigration laws isn't synonymous with abolishing the 4th Amendment.  This whole premise is bizarre and over the top crazy conspiracy theorist stuff.  Real Alex Jones material.

 

You misunderstand me.  I'm content deporting the illegals encountered by law enforcement in their everyday duties as well as the ones crossing the border.  The illegals that get arrested, need to be deported.  Currently, few do.  As far as the government putting $450 billion dollars to better use - I'm not holding my breath... Considering they will have spent three times that amount on just developing the F-35.  If $22.5 billion per year mostly solves the immigration issue in America, it is money well spent.  That's like a 30% budget raise for DHS.

Quote:Is 'deportation riot squads' truly hyperbole? I've seen his campaign team (while they last). I've seen the flames of bigotry fanned and one of his major directives is to target people who can only be targeted based on physical appearance. You don't think the paste eating mouth breathers who have already been incited to violence and vitriol wouldn't jump at the chance to "make 'Murica great again" by harassing and attacking those they suspect are here illegally? You don't see how anyone who looks remotely ethnic could be detained for questioning? So any legally born or naturalized citizen will be subject to interrogation based on physical appearance alone? This is freedom?


You can mock the argument many Americans have become dependent on the labor of illegal immigrants, but these people are doing jobs that few Americans would do.


And now you're comfortable just deporting the ones they come across. $450B and you're okay lowering the bar. Imagine if $450B was spent on something that would actually benefit the average American instead of this farce. It's kind of a lot of money.

 

Absurdity, let's just count the ways. 

 

1.) La raza has already been outside his campaign rallies chasing down and beating up people who look European.  Where is the outrage.  Same with BLM.  Where is the outrage.  3 cities burned down and nearly a dozen Cops executed but its TRUMP inciting violence amongst his supporters?  Yeh, right. 

 

2.) He said nothing about HIT SQUADS or interrogating people because they are ETNIC, he said that criminal aliens would be deported.  As stated before we released over 20k last year including murders rapists and kidnappers back into our society.  THAT is an extreme position.  THAT is out of the mainstream.  Enforcing immigration law on the books and providing the manpower to make it possible is the responsibility of the executive branch of government and codified in the constitution of the United States.  The formational premise of government is to provide the common defense for its citizens.  A direct extension of that is expression of national sovereignty through the maintenance of a border and enforcing immigration policy. 

 

I do find it amazing that in almost all cases any "opposition" to Trumps plan is based on creating a false emotional construct to demonize and not dealing with what he actually said or what's really happening in the country. 

I love how you can say Trump doesn't incite division and violence. It's as if the first few months of his campaign never happened. What he is pitching isn't deporting those law enforcement just happens to come across -- which should be happening now (how would that be the generator of jobs you mention?). His rhetoric is that we are gonna deport 11 million illegals. If you don't see how people who look a certain way could be targeted I guess you missed instances where people who are here legally have already been harassed in Arizona. You are right that Trump said nothing about hit squads. I have to assume he will run the government in a similar fashion to how he runs his campaign. Through intimidation, amped up rhetoric and violence (and the likelihood of not paying people for work they've done). To squander $450B on this is absurd considering how many other things this money could be used for. To believe this is the most pressing issue our nation faces is ridiculous and indicative of an America that has clearly lost its way.

Quote:I love how you can say Trump doesn't incite division and violence. It's as if the first few months of his campaign never happened. What he is pitching isn't deporting those law enforcement just happens to come across -- which should be happening now (how would that be the generator of jobs you mention?). His rhetoric is that we are gonna deport 11 million illegals. If you don't see how people who look a certain way could be targeted I guess you missed instances where people who are here legally have already been harassed in Arizona. You are right that Trump said nothing about hit squads. I have to assume he will run the government in a similar fashion to how he runs his campaign. Through intimidation, amped up rhetoric and violence (and the likelihood of not paying people for work they've done). To squander $450B on this is absurd considering how many other things this money could be used for. To believe this is the most pressing issue our nation faces is ridiculous and indicative of an America that has clearly lost its way.

 

That's just not true.  He has said and continues to say that his immediate focus will be on the 2 to 4 million CRIMINAL ALIENS, specifically violent criminal aliens that are in this country that pose a potential threat to the country.  At the same time we are going to build a wall to make sure that these criminals aren't allowed to just walk back across the border the moment they are released (The guy who shot Kate Steinlee was deported 5 times and kept coming back.) 

 

In any law enforcement endeavor, the executive has the ability to set prosecutorial priorities and directives.  This is about getting the Gang leaders, drug dealers, and viltent offenders out of the country, securing the border, monitoring visa overstays and creating a political environment that could lead to normalization for the Abuela or the guy who has been working here for the Last 20 years and hasn't committed any crime outside of illegal entry into the country. 

 

I'll go back again, the reason this topic is so contentious has nothing to do with xenophobia, it has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with the fact that we went along with the Heart and Compassion argument in the mid 80's.  We were promised, give amnesty to 3 million people, get it over with and we will secure the border so that this won't happen again.  3 million people got amnesty, the border wasn't secured and 30 years later we are dealing with 11 million estimated (probably much higher) illegal aliens in the country.  That's not sustainable.  That's not what the government was designed for.   Build the wall, secure the border, deport the rapists murderers drug dealers, drunk drivers, etc, and then we can take reasonable stock of the undocumented population that remains and then set priorities for the next step. 

 

In Texas alone there have been nearly 3/4 of a million crimes committed by illegal aliens since this president took office.  Proper enforcement of immigration law ON THE BOOKS could have stopped the largest terror attack in our country's history.   Proper vetting of refugees or the creation of a safe zone could have prevented the second largest attack in U. S. History.  Proper vetting of the Fiancé Visa program could have prevented San Bernardino. 

 

If you want to disagree with certain aspects of policy then that's fine.  But pretending that the American people don't have a right to determine, through their elected representatives and due process of law, who is and is not in their country is a fundamental rejection of the basic social contract that underwrites the very formation of government. 

And it has begun. Mexican lawmakers are working a bill to confiscate American business interests.

Yeh... That'll pass

I seriously doubt Mexico wants to start a conflict of economies with the United States.  It wouldn't end well for Mexico.

Quote:I love how you can say Trump doesn't incite division and violence. It's as if the first few months of his campaign never happened. What he is pitching isn't deporting those law enforcement just happens to come across -- which should be happening now (how would that be the generator of jobs you mention?). His rhetoric is that we are gonna deport 11 million illegals. If you don't see how people who look a certain way could be targeted I guess you missed instances where people who are here legally have already been harassed in Arizona. You are right that Trump said nothing about hit squads. I have to assume he will run the government in a similar fashion to how he runs his campaign. Through intimidation, amped up rhetoric and violence (and the likelihood of not paying people for work they've done). To squander $450B on this is absurd considering how many other things this money could be used for. To believe this is the most pressing issue our nation faces is ridiculous and indicative of an America that has clearly lost its way.

 

Deporting those law enforcement come across SHOULD be happening now, but it isn't.  That is because law enforcement doesn't have the resources to do that.... Hence your Immigration Hit Squad Riot Gustapo.  The job generator is that hiring this Immigration Hit Squad Riot Gustapo requires hiring thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of additional ICE Agents, ICE DO's, Deputy Marshals, Marshal DEO's, Marshal AEO's, Immigration Judges, BOP Officers, Mission Support, Administrative positions and possibly more Border Patrol Agents and Customs Officers; All of this in addition to the construction of dozens of new multi-million dollar facilities.

 

I can't think of very many better ways to spend $22.5 billion per year than to effectively solve the immigration issue once and for all.

It was one guy preparing legislation "if Mexican business interests are threatened to pay for a border wall"


Its silly really. Of all the options, most recently the confiscation of drug money from cartels, none involve direct action against Mexican business interests.


Whenever he talks about the wall he always immediately follows it with the trade deficit. The trade deficit with Mexico is 68 billion. Dollars. If you cut that to 50 billion a year that would be a savings of roughly 72 billion dollars to the us economy. That's translates to about 18 billion dollars of extra revenue to the treasury, there's our wall.


Donald Trump already got the media, that hates him so much they have openly abandoned their objective role as the 4th estate, to pay for his primary campaign run. They didn't write him a check for 3 billion dollars, but he did get that amount of value.

Quote:Deporting those law enforcement come across SHOULD be happening now, but it isn't. That is because law enforcement doesn't have the resources to do that.... Hence your Immigration Hit Squad Riot Gustapo. The job generator is that hiring this Immigration Hit Squad Riot Gustapo requires hiring thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of additional ICE Agents, ICE DO's, Deputy Marshals, Marshal DEO's, Marshal AEO's, Immigration Judges, BOP Officers, Mission Support, Administrative positions and possibly more Border Patrol Agents and Customs Officers; All of this in addition to the construction of dozens of new multi-million dollar facilities.


I can't think of very many better ways to spend $22.5 billion per year than to effectively solve the immigration issue once and for all.

Law enforcement doesn't have the resources to lock up illegals and dial ICE for a pick up? I can think of plenty of better ways to spend that money. Education would be a great start. This section of the message board shows just how dire the need is.


And if you think a wall on our southern border is going to stop illegal immigration or make it harder for terrorists to access American soil, I hate to tell you our northern border is even more porous and there are entire sections of the east and west coast which large groups could arrive undetected.


Illegal immigration is an issue that governors and senators of border states have been trying to solve for decades. But since the orange man says he can solve it during an election season with emphasis of his tiny little hands, you believe it is possible. The fact you are willing to invest so much effort and money into something that will not work shows you are gullible and do not recognize where our country's priorities should lie. After the fearmongering following 9/11 all manner of bad policies were enacted because fear allows rational people to endorse irrational decisions. Blowing billions on a wall is a colossal bone head move. Why not take that money and fix the VA (Republicans can't help but voting against helping soldiers who come back broken and incomplete)? End homelessness? Invest in something that really could create sustainable jobs? No. Instead let's build a [BLEEP] wall.

Quote:Law enforcement doesn't have the resources to lock up illegals and dial ICE for a pick up? I can think of plenty of better ways to spend that money. Education would be a great start. This section of the message board shows just how dire the need is.


And if you think a wall on our southern border is going to stop illegal immigration or make it harder for terrorists to access American soil, I hate to tell you our northern border is even more porous and there are entire sections of the east and west coast which large groups could arrive undetected.


Illegal immigration is an issue that governors and senators of border states have been trying to solve for decades. But since the orange man says he can solve it during an election season with emphasis of his tiny little hands, you believe it is possible. The fact you are willing to invest so much effort and money into something that will not work shows you are gullible and do not recognize where our country's priorities should lie. After the fearmongering following 9/11 all manner of bad policies were enacted because fear allows rational people to endorse irrational decisions. Blowing billions on a wall is a colossal bone head move. Why not take that money and fix the VA (Republicans can't help but voting against helping soldiers who come back broken and incomplete)? End homelessness? Invest in something that really could create sustainable jobs? No. Instead let's build a [BAD WORD REMOVED] wall.

 

The fact that you have no idea how a deportation works says it all.  It's not as simple as just call ICE and poof, the alien is gone.  It starts with having enough ICE agents or Border Patrol Agents to respond to that call.  Then it takes having a facility close enough to actually be able to determine if the alien is illegal or not with ENFORCE/IDENT IAFIS ability.  Many times illegals are let go in traffic stops because it would take way too long to respond and then even longer to bring the alien back to a facility to process them.  Then, once they are determined to be illegal, a case file for 11 million people needs to be completed which takes immigration officers roughly an hour and significantly longer if its a prosecution.  Now you have to have a jail that can hold these 11 million immigrants.  So now the case has been submitted up and they are pending a hearing with an immigration judge, which currently takes months.  So now we have to house these immigrants while they are in our custody.  So the time has come for them to see an immigration judge, and they were ordered removed.  Okay, now we have to wait months again to fly them back to their countries if they are not from Mexico.  All along the way they are coming in contact with ICE/Border Patrol, ICE Detention Officers, BOP Detention Officers, immigration judges, US Marshals, DEO's, AEO's, prosecution lawyers, defense attorneys, court stenographers, etc etc.

 

I would rather put the money for the wall into manpower, but a wall still helps.  It won't stop anyone, but it buys Border Patrol time to respond and catch these people before they get away.  Yuma, Arizona is a prime example.  Before the secondary border fence went up, they would stage daily "banzai" runs by the 100's.  The day the secondary fence went up, it all ended.  Now they come across in small groups of 3 or 4 at a time, which the Border Patrol can manage.

 

Come up with a way to "end homelessness" and I'll be on board.  Come up with a way to fix the VA and I'll be on board.  But fix the country's immigration problem?  Nah, we don't want to fix that because other problems and words and stuff.

Quote:Law enforcement doesn't have the resources to lock up illegals and dial ICE for a pick up? I can think of plenty of better ways to spend that money. Education would be a great start. This section of the message board shows just how dire the need is.

 

20k CRIMINAL ALIENS released back into society last year alone. 



And if you think a wall on our southern border is going to stop illegal immigration or make it harder for terrorists to access American soil, I hate to tell you our northern border is even more porous and there are entire sections of the east and west coast which large groups could arrive undetected.

 

Locking my doors at night might not stop everyone, but leaving the door open with a welcome sign isn't the answer either. 



Illegal immigration is an issue that governors and senators of border states have been trying to solve for decades. But since the orange man says he can solve it during an election season with emphasis of his tiny little hands, you believe it is possible.

 

Yes, they have been asking for a Wall and real enforcement of immigration law from the federal government for a long time now.  I am glad you are starting to see the light.  I was worried for a second. 


 

The fact you are willing to invest so much effort and money into something that will not work shows you are gullible and do not recognize where our country's priorities should lie. After the fearmongering following 9/11 all manner of bad policies were enacted because fear allows rational people to endorse irrational decisions.

 

Yeh, if only they enforced Visa Overstays.  We could avoided that whole bit of business. 


 

Blowing billions on a wall is a colossal bone head move. Why not take that money and fix the VA (Republicans can't help but voting against helping soldiers who come back broken and incomplete)?

 

False choice. 


 

End homelessness?

 

now you're just being silly. 


 

Invest in something that really could create sustainable jobs? No. Instead let's build a [BAD WORD REMOVED] wall.

 

We're talking about 20 billion dollars.  That's a rounding error in the federal budget.  You're boy had 800 billion in a stimulus package.  How'd that work out for you?  He borrowed 10 trillion dollars over the last 8 years.  How'd that work out for you?  we should have been able to rebuild the inner cities and buy everyone a second car with that. 

 

 

Now all of a sudden the "Orange Man" decides to check off something that has been on the federal to do list for the better part of 30 years and you are a fiscal hawk all of a sudden?  Please. 

I'm not saying there couldn't be ways to improve the current process, but a wall isn't the answer. It's a colossal waste of resources.


You wouldn't be detaining 11 million people at one time. But as you point out yourself, some of these people are deported multiple times. If you think a wall will stop them, you are a fool. I don't care if it's a hundred feet tall. There are plenty of tunnels now being used on our border. Building a wall on top of them won't stop that. If you want to pay to use ground penetrating technology to check the entire southern border, I would say that would be extremely expensive and time consuming for something that would likely produce very limited results. And it's not like new tunnels are so hard to dig. A black hole of waste. Though I am sure the government procurement process would somehow select a company to construct the wall that has ties to people close to Trump just like Halliburton sucked on the government teat in Iraq.

A wall/fence buys Border Patrol time to respond before whatever coming in escapes.  An extra minute is a big deal along border cities.

 

As an aside, I disagree that tunnels aren't hard to dig.  They cost the cartels millions to dig.  Granted, they can make the money back if they get one load across, but they aren't cheap or easy to dig.

Quote:I'm not saying there couldn't be ways to improve the current process, but a wall isn't the answer. It's a colossal waste of resources.


You wouldn't be detaining 11 million people at one time. But as you point out yourself, some of these people are deported multiple times. If you think a wall will stop them, you are a fool. I don't care if it's a hundred feet tall. There are plenty of tunnels now being used on our border. Building a wall on top of them won't stop that. If you want to pay to use ground penetrating technology to check the entire southern border, I would say that would be extremely expensive and time consuming for something that would likely produce very limited results. And it's not like new tunnels are so hard to dig. A black hole of waste. Though I am sure the government procurement process would somehow select a company to construct the wall that has ties to people close to Trump just like Halliburton sucked on the government teat in Iraq.

Halliburton was a Clinton era contractor.


Trump has a history of saving governments time and money on public works projects. Stemming the tide of tens of thousands just walking across will allow us to focus more resources on the tunnels. Again, the analogy of the locked door.

Halliburton was Cheney's company, but nice try. They made a mint in Iraq.


Trump has a history of not paying people. That saves a ton.


Read this and tell me more about how logical a wall is and how easy you think locating and destroying tunnels will be:

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.businessinsider.my/inside-mexican-drug-cartel-narco-tunnels-on-the-us-mexico-border-2016-9/#fBx5xDSYhHqj8oiG.97'>http://www.businessinsider.my/inside-mexican-drug-cartel-narco-tunnels-on-the-us-mexico-border-2016-9/#fBx5xDSYhHqj8oiG.97</a>

Quote:Halliburton was Cheney's company, but nice try. They made a mint in Iraq.


Trump has a history of not paying people. That saves a ton.


Read this and tell me more about how logical a wall is and how easy you think locating and destroying tunnels will be:

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.businessinsider.my/inside-mexican-drug-cartel-narco-tunnels-on-the-us-mexico-border-2016-9/#fBx5xDSYhHqj8oiG.97'>http://www.businessinsider.my/inside-mexican-drug-cartel-narco-tunnels-on-the-us-mexico-border-2016-9/#fBx5xDSYhHqj8oiG.97</a>

They already tunnel under the fence. A fancier fence won't change things. The cartels don't move illegals through the tunnels. The biggest issue we have with drugs entering the country is dope being brought in by ultralights. They are hard to detect on radar and can fly high enough where Border Patrol can't hear them flying overhead at night.

I never said that Cheney wasn't the CEO of Haliburton, I said that Haliburton's relationship with the federal government extends before Cheney's term as CEO from 1995 to 2000.  That relationship includes an intervention on their behalf By one William Jefferson Clinton.  Who's wife also voted for the Iraq war by the way. 

 

I also said that we should adopt an all of the above strategy.  The idea that the strongest wealthiest country in the history of the world should just say "oh...  They got tunnels...  Let's just let drugs criminals and unauthorized migration cross over into our country unfettered!"