Quote:Interesting question. Forget the homo/hetero argument. You dont think people are born immoral? I would introduce exhibit A: My kids. Nobody taught them how to steal, but they always do it.
Children don't understand property rights. Not sure you can call that immoral.
My two kids don't judge anyone based on race, religion, sexual preference, or any other prejudice.
That to me shows their innocence...
Interesting discussion, for sure.
Quote:Children don't understand property rights. Not sure you can call that immoral.
My two kids don't judge anyone based on race, religion, sexual preference, or any other prejudice.
That to me shows their innocence...
Interesting discussion, for sure.
Everyone is born immoral, morality of any kind has to be taught and practiced. It's why we have to teach kids to share for example that natural state is that is mine you can't have it.
Quote:Children don't understand property rights. Not sure you can call that immoral.
My two kids don't judge anyone based on race, religion, sexual preference, or any other prejudice.
That to me shows their innocence...
Interesting discussion, for sure.
Yes they do
And i dont mean that maliciously, its part of our pattern recognition software.
Quote:Interesting question. Forget the homo/hetero argument. You dont think people are born immoral? I would introduce exhibit A: My kids. Nobody taught them how to steal, but they always do it.
Yes, but back to the home/hetero argument. If you think people are born immoral, and can be taught to be moral, do you think homosexuals can be taught to be heterosexuals?
Quote:Everyone is born immoral, morality of any kind has to be taught and practiced. It's why we have to teach kids to share for example that natural state is that is mine you can't have it.
If you think homosexuality is immoral, and morality has to be taught and practiced, then you must think homosexuals can be taught to be heterosexuals. Is that true? Do you believe that?
Quote:If you think homosexuality is immoral, and morality has to be taught and practiced, then you must think homosexuals can be taught to be heterosexuals. Is that true? Do you believe that?
No I believe and I hate that this will offend some people because it's not my intention, that homosexuality is a perversion that is triggered as a coping(SP?) Mechanism the same way some people become alcoholics or comfort eaters ect...
I don't think there is a biological makeup where a man can only be with a man, I think at some point something happens to that man which causes him to believe he can only be with other men for one reason or another. Just like people are not born alcoholics but some people are way more likely to become alcoholics and others can stop after a drink.
When I say everyone is born immoral I'm talking on a base level, we have to be taught to not be selfish, self-serving and even how to control violence this is evidence we are not all born moral but rather immoral.
Quote:No I believe and I hate that this will offend some people because it's not my intention, that homosexuality is a perversion that is triggered as a coping(SP?) Mechanism the same way some people become alcoholics or comfort eaters ect...
I don't think there is a biological makeup where a man can only be with a man, I think at some point something happens to that man which causes him to believe he can only be with other men for one reason or another. Just like people are not born alcoholics but some people are way more likely to become alcoholics and others can stop after a drink.
Is there any scientific evidence of that, or is this just something you came up with in order to maintain your stance that homosexuality is immoral?
And accepting your premise that homosexuality is similar to alcoholism, and that homosexuality is immoral, do you think alcoholism is immoral?
If people are not born alcoholics but some people are way more likely to become alcoholics than others, what causes them to become alcoholics if they're not born with that tendency?
I'm guessing that you want to believe homosexuality is immoral, but you can't quite get there logically. I say that because your reasoning seems so contorted on so many levels.
Quote:No I believe and I hate that this will offend some people because it's not my intention, that homosexuality is a perversion that is triggered as a coping(SP?) Mechanism the same way some people become alcoholics or comfort eaters ect...
Yeah, I can't imagine why someone would take offense to their lifestyle being called a perversion.
I believe, and I hate that this will offend some people, because it's not my intention, that love of guns is a perversion that is triggered as a coping mechanisms.
Can't see how that would offend anyone. Nope. I could toss in any number of things, including religion. I'm sure that wouldn't offend people eitherz
Or if I suggested to you that you don't REALLY love your wife, that your love is just a perversion. That's essentially what you're saying. Oh and that you only love her because something happened to you.
Quote:Is there any scientific evidence of that, or is this just something you came up with in order to maintain your stance that homosexuality is immoral?
And accepting your premise that homosexuality is similar to alcoholism, and that homosexuality is immoral, do you think alcoholism is immoral?
If people are not born alcoholics but some people are way more likely to become alcoholics than others, what causes them to become alcoholics if they're not born with that tendency?
I'm guessing that you want to believe homosexuality is immoral, but you can't quite get there logically. I say that because your reasoning seems so contorted on so many levels.
Alcohol is not immoral the abuse of it is. Sex is not immoral the perversion of it is. Different people are going to struggle with different forms of immorality no one is the same. I'm not saying the temptation of homosexuality is immoral I believing acting on it is.
Quote:Yeah, I can't imagine why someone would take offense to their lifestyle being called a perversion.
I believe, and I hate that this will offend some people, because it's not my intention, that love of guns is a perversion that is triggered as a coping mechanisms.
Can't see how that would offend anyone. Nope. I could toss in any number of things, including religion. I'm sure that wouldn't offend people either
I respect you find guns immoral which is why I never advocate using legislation to dictate morality. Just becuase I believe it's immoral doesn't mean I support legislating against it. I fully support equal marriage rights for homosexuals and spousal rights for their partners. I don't support it but I respect their right to live their lives.
Quote:I respect you find guns immoral which is why I never advocate using legislation to dictate morality. Just becuase I believe it's immoral doesn't mean I support legislating against it. I fully support equal marriage rights for homosexuals and spousal rights for their partners. I don't support it but I respect their right to live their lives.
Finding something immoral is fine. I'm not going to tell you what to find moral or immoral. That's not my place.
Telling people something is a perversion, and that they're only that way because of something that happened to them-- that's fine too. Well within your rights. But let's not pretend it's not offensive. When you call someones lifestyle a perversion, your'e going to offend them. Telling them they are the way they are because something happened to them, that's offensive. Surely you can see that.
Quote:Yes, but back to the home/hetero argument. If you think people are born immoral, and can be taught to be moral, do you think homosexuals can be taught to be heterosexuals?
No one can be taught to be moral
Quote:Finding something immoral is fine. I'm not going to tell you what to find moral or immoral. That's not my place.
Telling people something is a perversion, and that they're only that way because of something that happened to them-- that's fine too. Well within your rights. But let's not pretend it's not offensive. When you call someones lifestyle a perversion, your'e going to offend them. Telling them they are the way they are because something happened to them, that's offensive. Surely you can see that.
Eh perversions not the right word than, how should it be worded when it's an action being used outside of its intention?
I have gay associates and even a gay cousin on my wife's side. We had him and his boyfriend for Thanksgiving one year he knows how we feel about it and was very respectful as far my kids where concerned it was just his friend that came for dinner. Me and him have talked about it before obviously there's aspects of my belief we can explore here because of the coc and while me and him certainly don't see eye to eye on many issues he knows I respect him and defend his right to live his life.
You don't like the word perversion but your already looking for a reason to be offended when I said I find it immoral. It really doesn't matter what word I use you probably find my beliefs ancient and ridiculous at best many just downright deplore them.
Quote:No one can be taught to be moral
What do you mean no one can be taught morality? Of course they can otherwise we'd all be running around in a mad Max world.
Quote:What do you mean no one can be taught morality? Of course they can otherwise we'd all be running around in a mad Max world.
Replace Muhammad with immortan Joe and show me a difference
Quote:Replace Muhammad with immortan Joe and show me a difference
That's not the entire world, some parts of the world have very different morals taught which you can argue the wrong morals produce the wrong type of society, but even bad morals are taught. An islamisit isn't born hating the world its taught to them, the Same way crusaders where taught hate in the dark ages.
Morality is absolutely taught, how we raise our children, the laws we enforce, the entertainment we produce all factor into a cultures morality.
Quote:Eh perversions not the right word than, how should it be worded when it's an action being used outside of its intention?
I have gay associates and even a gay cousin on my wife's side. We had him and his boyfriend for Thanksgiving one year he knows how we feel about it and was very respectful as far my kids where concerned it was just his friend that came for dinner. Me and him have talked about it before obviously there's aspects of my belief we can explore here because of the coc and while me and him certainly don't see eye to eye on many issues he knows I respect him and defend his right to live his life.
You don't like the word perversion but your already looking for a reason to be offended when I said I find it immoral. It really doesn't matter what word I use you probably find my beliefs ancient and ridiculous at best many just downright deplore them.
We can't really talk about how I find your beliefs on this board, since it goes against the COC (I would probably avoid such topics in any case, at least on this board. I actually like most of the people here, with a few exceptions. You're not an exception, just to be clear. Otherwise I probably wouldn't bother responding to you) But I'm sure you'd be offended if I used terms like 'ancient' and 'ridiculous'. One isn't looking for 'offense' when someone uses the word 'perverted'. The offense is there. Just like one wouldn't be looking for offense if one used terms like 'ancient' and 'ridiculous' regarding religious beliefs. In fact if I used such words, I would be intending offense. I would not be shocked when someone said they were offended by it.
One of my best friends, who's the closest thing I've got to a sister, is a lesbian. She, her wife, and their adopted daughter usually come over for dinner once a week with us. Or we go to their house. So yeah, I take offense when people call their relationship 'perversion'. Especially when they've been in a monogamous relationship for going on thirteen years.
Quote:We can't really talk about how I find your beliefs on this board, since it goes against the COC (I would probably avoid such topics in any case, at least on this board. I actually like most of the people here, with a few exceptions. You're not an exception, just to be clear. Otherwise I probably wouldn't bother responding to you) But I'm sure you'd be offended if I used terms like 'ancient' and 'ridiculous'. One isn't looking for 'offense' when someone uses the word 'perverted'. The offense is there. Just like one wouldn't be looking for offense if one used terms like 'ancient' and 'ridiculous' regarding religious beliefs. In fact if I used such words, I would be intending offense. I would not be shocked when someone said they were offended by it.
One of my best friends, who's the closest thing I've got to a sister, is a lesbian. She, her wife, and their adopted daughter usually come over for dinner once a week with us. Or we go to their house. So yeah, I take offense when people call their relationship 'perversion'. Especially when they've been in a monogamous relationship for going on thirteen years.
Fair enough like I said I don't mean for it to come off offensive of anything offending someone is the opposite of my goal so perversion is the wrong word. I don't have the right word so I'll just say I view it as an act out of bounds?
I know many gay couples live commited lives and I applaude them for being commited to each other but it's still an act and lifestyle I cant condone not that anyone is asking me to. Like you said we can only take it so far here.
Quote:As a parent I take it my responsibility to protect their innocence from what we consider immoral. I've made no secret I find homosecuality, transgender, prostitution and narcotics all immoral acts according to our belief system. However I find having a state powerful enough to impose those beliefs on someonesles equally immoral.
Bottom line I teach my kids one man one women anything and everything else is sinful so we avoid situations that compromise those moral teachings.
Ok I'm ready for my bigotry beatings....
Well said. I'm thankful I never felt the need to raise children. Too much to try to explain because you can't keep them in a bubble and they will hear about or see stuff and ask "why". I would sound like my mom and say, "because I told you so," and it wouldn't be up for discussion. I would end up with a sulking kid and all hell would break loose because I have no patience for it.
Quote:"They had to go to the bathroom"
I mean, my kids don't really ask things like this. It's like when people are like "What are kids going to think when they see two men holding hands in public?" My kids think "They must love each other!"
I guess because I've never raised kids but was subjected to some things as a kid myself that no child should have to deal with is why I- #1 don't know how regular kids would react and #2 have such strong feelings about a subject like this. I reckon my thought process is skewed because of my personal situation at a very young age. That, and my personal beliefs are those in which I believe in equality for all people even if I don't agree with their lifestyle.
And people say kids rebound from things easily but that's not always the case.