Quote:The bakers in Oregon were fined and punished for refusing to make a cake specifically celebrating gay marriage. They did not refuse to sell one of their regular cakes to to couple. How is that any different
(other than the government edicts) from WalMart refusing to make a cake with a confederate flag? None of these businesses will turn away a gay customer who wants to buy something a straight customer wants.
It's not against the law.
Quote:And I specifically said "other than government edicts." The existence of a law doesn't make it right, especially when the law discriminates against one group vs. another
.
How is saying you won't make a cake for someone that is black different than saying you won't make a cake with the "f word" on it? "Other than government edicts"?
Quote:But that's not what happened. The bakery served gay people.
A better example is that you won't make a cake that celebrates (say) the 75th anniversary of the Black Panthers.
There should be no government edict requiring a business to build a special item for someone. That's a lot different from refusing to sell someone an item you would sell to someone else.
No "government edict" says that. But you already knew that.
Well Amazon does continue to sell merchandise with the Confederate Battle Flag on it, though mostly books and items from third party sellers.
I wonder how many people are offended by
this?
Quote:But that's not what happened. The bakery served gay people.
A better example is that you won't make a cake that celebrates (say) the 75th anniversary of the Black Panthers.
There should be no government edict requiring a business to build a special item for someone. That's a lot different from refusing to sell someone an item you would sell to someone else.
You sell cakes. You sell wedding cakes. A couple comes in to buy a cake. That is not a special service. That is literally selling the exact same item you would sell to someone else is a plain and blatant form of discrimination. That is the crux of why the argument the defenders of this form of discrimination falls so very flat and comes across in a terrible light.
Quote:Well Amazon does continue to sell merchandise with the Confederate Battle Flag on it, though mostly books and items from third party sellers.
I wonder how many people are offended by this?
I'm sure you've ordered your H. Clinton toilet paper.
Quote:You sell cakes. You sell wedding cakes. A couple comes in to buy a cake. That is not a special service. That is literally selling the exact same item you would sell to someone else is a plain and blatant form of discrimination. That is the crux of why the argument the defenders of this form of discrimination falls so very flat and comes across in a terrible light.
Those gay couples certainly weren't discriminated against because they were gay. The bakeries wouldn't have sold "I support gay marriage" cakes to straight couples either. Gay couples could/can buy any normal cake that a normal person would buy without what the bakery deemed an offensive agenda sprawled across the top of the cake.
Should a bakery be forced by law to write "I support radical Islam" for muslim extremists? Or would that not be discrimination?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Pun intended!
Quote:I'm sure you've ordered your H. Clinton toilet paper.
I despise Hillary Clinton, but I would never stool that low (see what I did there).
Despite my feeble attempt at humor above, I would not condone toilet paper depicting any politician, and I would find it just as offensive as the link that I posted.
Quote:Those gay couples certainly weren't discriminated against because they were gay. The bakeries wouldn't have sold "I support gay marriage" cakes to straight couples either. Gay couples could/can buy any normal cake that a normal person would buy without what the bakery deemed an offensive agenda sprawled across the top of the cake.
Should a bakery be forced by law to write "I support radical Islam" for muslim extremists? Or would that not be discrimination?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Pun intended!
Quote:It's not exactly the same. It needs a different message written on it, and a non-traditional pair of figurines on top. But here's an analogous case:
An African American baker sells anniversary cakes. They just recently made one celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Black Panthers. A white guy comes in to buy a cake celebrating the 150th anniversary of the KKK. The baker finds such a thing is offensive. Should he be required to bake that cake nonetheless?
A wedding cake is a wedding cake is a wedding cake. It is a product you sell. If you refuse to sell it to a certain group of people due to a cherry picked belief in the inferiority of that person than that is 100% flat out discrimination.
A KKK anniversary cake is not a cake one would generally carry, and if they do then sure go ahead and sell it but if you carry wedding cakes and then refuse to sell them you are discriminating.
What is so hard about understanding the difference between refusing to make special items like supporting KKK cakes and selling a wedding cake that you would normally sell to anyone else. This fallacy keeps being brought up over and over again as if you all actually believe it rather than it being just someway to spin and argument.
Quote:A wedding cake is a wedding cake is a wedding cake. It is a product you sell. If you refuse to sell it to a certain group of people due to a cherry picked belief in the inferiority of that person than that is 100% flat out discrimination.
A KKK anniversary cake is not a cake one would generally carry, and if they do then sure go ahead and sell it but if you carry wedding cakes and then refuse to sell them you are discriminating.
What is so hard about understanding the difference between refusing to make special items like supporting KKK cakes and selling a wedding cake that you would normally sell to anyone else. This fallacy keeps being brought up over and over again as if you all actually believe it rather than it being just someway to spin and argument.
However, a wedding cake might be considered a "traditional" wedding cake that depicts a man and woman as the husband and bride on top of the cake. Perhaps the shop owner does not want to decorate a wedding cake with two brides or two husbands. Should they be forced to do so?
Quote:A wedding cake is a wedding cake is a wedding cake. It is a product you sell. If you refuse to sell it to a certain group of people due to a cherry picked belief in the inferiority of that person than that is 100% flat out discrimination.
A KKK anniversary cake is not a cake one would generally carry, and if they do then sure go ahead and sell it but if you carry wedding cakes and then refuse to sell them you are discriminating.
What is so hard about understanding the difference between refusing to make special items like supporting KKK cakes and selling a wedding cake that you would normally sell to anyone else. This fallacy keeps being brought up over and over again as if you all actually believe it rather than it being just someway to spin and argument.
It's not cherry picked. It's not because of inferiority.
Would a videographer who refused to shoot porn get this same treatment? No, he just wouldn't get the work and no one would care.
Quote:A wedding cake is a wedding cake is a wedding cake. It is a product you sell. If you refuse to sell it to a certain group of people due to a cherry picked belief in the inferiority of that person than that is 100% flat out discrimination.
A KKK anniversary cake is not a cake one would generally carry, and if they do then sure go ahead and sell it but if you carry wedding cakes and then refuse to sell them you are discriminating.
What is so hard about understanding the difference between refusing to make special items like supporting KKK cakes and selling a wedding cake that you would normally sell to anyone else. This fallacy keeps being brought up over and over again as if you all actually believe it rather than it being just someway to spin and argument.
It wasn't just a wedding cake. It was a specialty wedding cake - one that says they support gay marriage. Should a bakery be forced to make a special wedding cake for a straight couple that wants "Gay marriage is a sin" on their wedding cake? Same exact thing.
Quote:It's not cherry picked. It's not because of inferiority.
Would a videographer who refused to shoot [BAD WORD REMOVED] get this same treatment? No, he just wouldn't get the work and no one would care.
Exactly. A cameraman should be forced to shoot a gay porn video when solicited? Same exact concept.
Stop trying to force people to do things that they don't want to do. As my stepfather used to always tell me when I was growing up, "Don't worry about the mule and just load the wagon."
Quote:However, a wedding cake might be considered a "traditional" wedding cake that depicts a man and woman as the husband and bride on top of the cake. Perhaps the shop owner does not want to decorate a wedding cake with two brides or two husbands. Should they be forced to do so?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but the last several weddings I've been to had cakes with no special writing on it at all...
Isn't the trend now for cakes to just be cakes, they don't say, happy wedding or have figurines on the top of them... at least not any wedding I have attended... including my own...
Quote:However, a wedding cake might be considered a "traditional" wedding cake that depicts a man and woman as the husband and bride on top of the cake. Perhaps the shop owner does not want to decorate a wedding cake with two brides or two husbands. Should they be forced to do so?
Well now that's fair sure. A couple could the topper elsewhere. An argument could be made they still sell the toppers and when I was married ours didn't come as a package we picked out the stupid little figures. So its still not enforcing anything its just a transaction. Flat out denying the cake is what I find discriminatory.
Honestly this whole debate about a cake is stupid.
Quote:It wasn't just a wedding cake. It was a specialty wedding cake - one that says they support gay marriage. Should a bakery be forced to make a special wedding cake for a straight couple that wants "Gay marriage is a sin" on their wedding cake? Same exact thing.
Exactly. A cameraman should be forced to shoot a gay [BAD WORD REMOVED] video when solicited? Same exact concept.
Stop trying to force people to do things that they don't want to do. As my stepfather used to always tell me when I was growing up, "Don't worry about the mule and just load the wagon."
Source on the type of cake requested? Because yeah id have a problem with that.
As for you and others comment on the photographer, its not the same thing. They take clients as they chose and I know several that turn down work they are not interested in.
The point is that if its a thing you wouldn't turn down other people for I.E. the cake a baker would gladly sell to any other couple then to say its not discrimination is false IMO.
If you want to say its OK to discriminate than say discrimination is OK with you because that's what this is. It's kind of a moot point because as with denying service based on race, creed, age, sec etc. Discriminating based on orientation will is seen as the same type of evil as those now by a majority of America.
Quote:Honestly this whole debate about a cake is stupid.
Cake, flag, whatever keeps us from paying attention to the important stuff, right?
Quote:Cake, flag, whatever keeps us from paying attention to the important stuff, right?
Your dismissive attitude towards cake is Un-American. I shudder to think of your thoughts about apple pie.