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Quote:This isn't Germany.  Straw man.

 

 

Well, considering there were a large number of slave owners both before and after the Civil War who were actually in the north, you might want to distance yourself from them as well, right? 

 

Do you not think that the confederate flag largely represents a fight to keep slavery? You gonna pretend like that wasnt what the civil war was actually about? 

 

Do the south just not teach these things in their schools? 

Quote:The dude who fought to get rid of slavery one of the worst presidents ever. Holy cow, this forum is something else.

Lincoln didn't fight to end slavery that's not even debatable he said so himself.

Quote:Lol @ straw man. You are talking about digging up corpses, you hypocrite.


Get over yourself and your stupid flag. It shouldn't be flown by any state of this union. It represents treason and an ugly past. Quite frankly I'd question the allegiance of any one shilling for it. And if you don't like America then you can GET OUT!

 

FBT isn't a confederate, he's not even arguing in defense of the flag. 

Quote:Do you not think that the confederate flag largely represents a fight to keep slavery? You gonna pretend like that wasnt what the civil war was actually about? 

 

Do the south just not teach these things in their schools? 

 

Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union, he said he didn't care if it meant freeing all the slaves or not freeing the slaves his only purpose was to preserve the Union by force if necessary. 

 

No one deny's slavery was an issue of division, it was not THE issue, it was weather states where free to leave the union. There was slave states on the union side as well.

 

I can link all kinds of quotes from Lincoln talking through out the conflict he was no champion of black people. That's revisionist history. 

Quote:Lincoln didn't fight to end slavery that's not even debatable he said so himself.

 

Sure it wasnt the goal when he started, but eventually it did turn into one of the main points of the war, no? 

Quote:Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union, he said he didn't care if it meant freeing all the slaves or not freeing the slaves his only purpose was to preserve the Union by force if necessary. 

 

No one deny's slavery was an issue of division, it was not THE issue, it was weather states where free to leave the union. There was slave states on the union side as well.

 

I can link all kinds of quotes from Lincoln talking through out the conflict he was no champion of black people. That's revisionist history. 

 

And I can link quotes of the succession statements from many southern states where they explicitly stated that slavery was THE issue. Do you want me to do so? 

I've seen a lot of people down playing slavery being an issue for the Civil War.  It's not true, not true at all.  The reason the southern states wanted more state right was to preserve slavery.

 

"While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries."

 

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/faq/

Yes, everyone. Please to provide links...

Quote:And I can link quotes of the succession statements from many southern states where they explicitly stated that slavery was THE issue. Do you want me to do so?

I'm not denying the souths instance or dependence on slavery nor am I justifying it. Non of that changes the reality that Lincoln was a tyrannical president responsible for the death of more Americans then any other individual in history.

Quote:I'm not denying the souths instance or dependence on slavery nor am I justifying it. Non of that changes the reality that Lincoln was a tyrannical president responsible for the death of more Americans then any other individual in history.

 

Did a lot of those happen though because he went to war with the southern states because they were seceding from the union? 

Quote:Did a lot of those happen though because he went to war with the southern states because they were seceding from the union?

They had the right to leave it doesn't matter what the reason was.

Quote:Sure it wasnt the goal when he started, but eventually it did turn into one of the main points of the war, no?

Yes when Lincoln was losing the war and when the public was growing tired of fighting the war he played the first race card in history.

Quote:Yes, everyone. Please to provide links...

I'm on my phone but I'll find links later where he talked about being pro-segregation, only intention was to preserve the union and the border states allowed to hold slaves in the union.


Slavery was an issue world wide it would have naturally ended without war like everywhere else.

Quote:Slavery was an issue world wide it would have naturally ended without war like everywhere else.

 

Uh...there are still countries today where slavery still exists.

 

Millions in India, Pakistan and China.

Quote:Uh...there are still countries today where slavery still exists.


Millions in India, Pakistan and China.

I'm talking about the first world the industrial revolution alone would've put slavery out of business


Not to mention it was massively unconstitutional and a violation of natural rights.

Quote:Lol @ straw man. You are talking about digging up corpses, you hypocrite.


Get over yourself and your stupid flag. It shouldn't be flown by any state of this union. It represents treason and an ugly past. Quite frankly I'd question the allegiance of any one shilling for it. And if you don't like America then you can GET OUT!

 

It's funny.  I set an extremely low bar for what I should expect from you, and every time I do, you manage to prove me wrong in setting expectations that high. 

 

It's not my stupid flag.  I know this is going to cause you a great deal of confusion here since, well, it just will, but I'm not defending the mindset behind the flag.  Shocker, you don't get my actual point here, so just to be clear, it is not, and never has been my flag. 

 

I'm really really taken back by your suggestion I should "GET OUT!"  That's some really tough talk.  I'm sure your keyboard is really flexing as you type in all caps. Gosh, what should I do here?  Never mind.  I'm not going anywhere.  Too much stupidity on this planet to eradicate.

 

As far as moving corpses is concerned, again, completely expected you to miss the point, and low and behold, you did.  Again, nothing shocking.  My point was a simple one, and most people would grasp it without difficulty.  The flag is a flag.  Nothing more.  It's a piece of cloth.  What it represents in this instance is the Confederacy.  It is displayed over a MONUMENT DEDICATED TO THE MEMORY OF THE VETERANS WHO SERVED AND/OR DIED IN THE CIVIL WAR (/macho keyboard operation).  Take down the flag, and the monument still exists.  So, what have you accomplished exactly?  Absolutely nothing, but hey, you go right ahead and continue your little tantrum over a piece of cloth.  That's the big issue to you.  Some people can't think beyond the singular issue, which in this case is a piece of cloth.  It's okay. 

 

If you were sincerely trying to erase the horrors of slavery, removing a flag ain't gonna cut it, but hey, there's bipartisan support for it so it must be a good thing, right?

Quote:Do you not think that the confederate flag largely represents a fight to keep slavery? You gonna pretend like that wasnt what the civil war was actually about? 

 

Do the south just not teach these things in their schools? 

 

The Civil War was fought over far more than slavery.  Those of us who were educated in the south are well aware that slavery was but one issue in a list of issues that ultimately brought about the Civil War.  Apparently, whatever government indoctrination center that taught you only focused on one particular subject. 

 

"Do the south just not teach these things in their schools?"

 

Evidently, whatever the region you got your education from, they failed to teach things like English. 

 

Interestingly enough, you completely avoided my point that slavery existed in the north.  In fact, it was an active form of commerce in all of the original colonies, and didn't actually end until DURING the Civil War in states like New Jersey.    I guess they failed to mention that when they were spoon feeding you the politically correct version of history, huh?  No worries. 

First off, all states north and south, black and white should honor the veterans of he civil war, they sacrificed a lot, and it was a defining point in this countries history.

Secondly, everyone that says "i don't know why southerners would want to remember should realize what the ancestors, their great great grandparents and family members sacrificed during that time period. And it wasn't just whites either, as many as 20,000 blacks fought for the south in the civil war, including a whole regiment of Louisiana volunteers, native Americans, and Hispanics also fought for the south. So the issue isn't nearly as black and white as you all make it out to be... Pardon the pun.


You should realize at that time a sense of national identity was much less than it is even today. People debated even more so about the limits of the federal government, especially since the northern and southern sectors were so different. In the end southerners followed their states into war not just for slavery, which yes was the heart of the issue. but because they thought they were protecting their family's from perverse values. Mainly racial integration, and a strong central government.


Now today we know many of those values to be different than what we adhere to today, and in some cases wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that they died with their families and in some cases their descendants and future generations best interests at heart. Something that any one of us would do today.


And to those arguing why we don't see flags from other countries and eras flown.... Well it's probably because in no time period has an american people lost and sacrificed so much... It should not be forgotten.


In the south alone, the post war casualty list would have been the equivalent of the southern states today losing 9 million men, it's largest cities, it's entire economy, and much of its culture.


And more men died in the north!


This era simply means more to Americans than any other, and certainly it means more than any other countries struggles to Americans


Here is a good article on why it should not come down..

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/42...ing-debate

I personally am in favor of replacing the confederate cross with the first confederate flag at the memorial, the stars and bars. Texas has done this, the flag honors confederate sacrifices and doesn't have all of the perversity that racial groups have dragged onto it following the war.

Quote:Uh...there are still countries today where slavery still exists.

 

Millions in India, Pakistan and China.

Where's your outrage for these countries?

 

Furthermore, who was selling Africans into slavery back in the 18th and 19th centuries in the US?

 

The reason slavery existed, particularly in the south, was because it was a very agrarian population that provided products that were in much demand north of the Mason Dixon line.  In order to contain costs, cheap labor was an absolute necessity.  Slavery didn't originate in the south, but it was more prevalent because of the farming culture and the need to bring as much product to market as cheaply as they possibly could.  As technology expanded and the ability to automate many of the tasks performed by slaves grew, slavery would have died off of its own accord even in the south. 

 

Slavery is a shameful bit of history for this country, and one that almost a century and a half later, we still can't seem to move on from.  The issue revolving around a flag is nothing more than a silly distraction by the politically correct police who have this incessant need to NOT be offended.  The reality is, having that flag on display actually stands as a reminder of where we were as a country, and a representation of just what we were willing to sacrifice to move on from that history, and the strides we've made as a nation since.  But hey, taking the flag down is going to cure everything, right?  A flag.  A piece of cloth.  That's the problem. 

Quote:It's funny. I set an extremely low bar for what I should expect from you, and every time I do, you manage to prove me wrong in setting expectations that high.


It's not my stupid flag. I know this is going to cause you a great deal of confusion here since, well, it just will, but I'm not defending the mindset behind the flag. Shocker, you don't get my actual point here, so just to be clear, it is not, and never has been my flag.


I'm really really taken back by your suggestion I should "GET OUT!" That's some really tough talk. I'm sure your keyboard is really flexing as you type in all caps. Gosh, what should I do here? Never mind. I'm not going anywhere. Too much stupidity on this planet to eradicate.


As far as moving corpses is concerned, again, completely expected you to miss the point, and low and behold, you did. Again, nothing shocking. My point was a simple one, and most people would grasp it without difficulty. The flag is a flag. Nothing more. It's a piece of cloth. What it represents in this instance is the Confederacy. It is displayed over a MONUMENT DEDICATED TO THE MEMORY OF THE VETERANS WHO SERVED AND/OR DIED IN THE CIVIL WAR (/macho keyboard operation). Take down the flag, and the monument still exists. So, what have you accomplished exactly? Absolutely nothing, but hey, you go right ahead and continue your little tantrum over a piece of cloth. That's the big issue to you. Some people can't think beyond the singular issue, which in this case is a piece of cloth. It's okay.


If you were sincerely trying to erase the horrors of slavery, removing a flag ain't gonna cut it, but hey, there's bipartisan support for it so it must be a good thing, right?


The Civil War was fought over far more than slavery. Those of us who were educated in the south are well aware that slavery was but one issue in a list of issues that ultimately brought about the Civil War. Apparently, whatever government indoctrination center that taught you only focused on one particular subject.


"Do the south just not teach these things in their schools?"


Evidently, whatever the region you got your education from, they failed to teach things like English.


Interestingly enough, you completely avoided my point that slavery existed in the north. In fact, it was an active form of commerce in all of the original colonies, and didn't actually end until DURING the Civil War in states like New Jersey. I guess they failed to mention that when they were spoon feeding you the politically correct version of history, huh? No worries.

That's a lot of talk about a piece of cloth. I don't think any state in the USA should fly the flag. And just like you lot love to say, you don't like it...YOU CAN GET OUT! (Read that last bit like you are from Texas.)

Quote:First off, all states north and south, black and white should honor the veterans of he civil war, they sacrificed a lot, and it was a defining point in this countries history.

Secondly, everyone that says "i don't know why southerners would want to remember should realize what the ancestors, their great great grandparents and family members sacrificed during that time period. And it wasn't just whites either, as many as 20,000 blacks fought for the south in the civil war, including a whole regiment of Louisiana volunteers, native Americans, and Hispanics also fought for the south. So the issue isn't nearly as black and white as you all make it out to be... Pardon the pun.


You should realize at that time a sense of national identity was much less than it is even today. People debated even more so about the limits of the federal government, especially since the northern and southern sectors were so different. In the end southerners followed their states into war not just for slavery, which yes was the heart of the issue. but because they thought they were protecting their family's from perverse values. Mainly racial integration, and a strong central government.


Now today we know many of those values to be different than what we adhere to today, and in some cases wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that they died with their families and in some cases their descendants and future generations best interests at heart. Something that any one of us would do today.


And to those arguing why we don't see flags from other countries and eras flown.... Well it's probably because in no time period has an american people lost and sacrificed so much... It should not be forgotten.


In the south alone, the post war casualty list would have been the equivalent of the southern states today losing 9 million men, it's largest cities, it's entire economy, and much of its culture.


And more men died in the north!


This era simply means more to Americans than any other, and certainly it means more than any other countries struggles to Americans


Here is a good article on why it should not come down..
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/42...ing-debate

I personally am in favor of replacing the confederate cross with the first confederate flag at the memorial, the stars and bars. Texas has done this, the flag honors confederate sacrifices and doesn't have all of the perversity that racial groups have dragged onto it following the war.

 

That is really the issue here.  The Confederate Battle Flag has been co-opted by hate groups just as is the case with the Nazi flag.

 

Ignoring history, or trying to hide it from public view, is a certain way to assure that it will be repeated. 

 

Quote:That's a lot of talk about a piece of cloth. I don't think any state in the USA should fly the flag. And just like you lot love to say, you don't like it...YOU CAN GET OUT! (Read that last bit like you are from Texas.)

 

That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it.  I'm not going anywhere.  Unlike you, I'm proud of my country, flaws and all.  I don't want to try to run from our history because I'm some mind-numbed coward who can't bear the thought of having to face the bad things this country has done in the name of progress.  But hey, the world needs people like you too, and I would never suggest you leave this nation.  We need ignorant folks to assure "big" issues like a flag continue to distract you from real issues that this nation is facing. 

 

Remembering ALL of our history is an important part of appreciating just what we have here as a nation.  Unfortunately, some folks were taught a very selective version, and it tends to reveal itself in discussions like these.  Not your fault that you're ignorant.  That's the way your side of the aisle likes to keep people. 

 

I'm not sure what the quip about Texas was intended to accomplish.  Considering they have one of the more thriving economies in the country, and their economic footprint actually rivals many countries, if your intent was to imply people from Texas are stupid, try again.