Quote:It sucks that we're hoping Joeckel eventually becomes as good as average-to-above-average Eugene Monroe.
^This...
So many people are thirsting for the slightest positive that their perspective is extremely skewed. The goal and standard is a championship caliber team. We need to analyze our roster in light of one that can win a Super Bowl. That is, after all, the ultimate goal right?
Joeckel has been very disappointing this season. I think "garbage" is way too strong to describe his performance - and I think he'll have a chance to mature and get stronger this offseason.
I'd like to see them sign someone like King Dunlap or Byron Bell in the offseason to provide competition and depth at tackle. Perhaps a mid-round pick as well.
I think Joeckel will improve. He's still really green. The kid can't grow a beard for crying out loud. I don't think he's grown the onions required to play the position in the NFL just yet.
Quote:You call yourself "level headed" but the reality is you're just a miserable little child. Level headed is someone who doesn't start multiple threads whining after a win. Level headed is recognizing that there are still issues with this team, but that yesterday was overall a good moment for the franchise. You wouldn't know level headed if it slapped you over the top of that thick skull of yours with a 2x4.
Wait what......
I'm confused on who you're bashing for bashing our team....
I'm the one being made fun of constantly for stating the obvious... We're young and it's a process
Quote:A couple good LT's in this upcoming draft class... maybe move Joekel inside and draft one with our first pic
ugh, why do people still always think you have to draft tackles high? Just stupid.
All I want is that we don't just assume players will get better. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
You have to have a backup plan. Our offensive line is by far the biggest weakness on this team IMO.
This is after Caldwell came in and revamped the entire unit.
Monroe is gone, Rackley is gone, Meester retired, Uche is gone, and Bradfield is gone.... and that's fine.
We went to a zone blocking scheme. It's year 2 of the O-line rebuild, and I dare say I still think this offensive line is worse than the line we had in 2012.
And if they're not worse than the 2012 line, they're sure close.
So two years of rebuilding this line and it's still pathetic.
YES, i know we have some young players on this line. I'm taking that into account. But I'm not simply going to say "we're young, so that means we'll be good later"..... it doesn't work that way.
Caldwell needs to draft another couple of lineman in the mid rounds this year.
Quote:Wait what......
I'm confused on who you're bashing for bashing our team....
I'm the one being made fun of constantly for stating the obvious... We're young and it's a process
you're not as smart as you claimed, junior
Quote:It sucks that we're hoping Joeckel eventually becomes as good as average-to-above-average Eugene Monroe.
My opinion he has reached Monroes's level and hasn't even been on the roster half as long, he is cheaper, has more upside, and the trade may have very well put the Jags in a overall better position for the future.
Quote:You call yourself "level headed" but the reality is you're just a miserable little child. Level headed is someone who doesn't start multiple threads whining after a win. Level headed is recognizing that there are still issues with this team, but that yesterday was overall a good moment for the franchise. You wouldn't know level headed if it slapped you over the top of that thick skull of yours with a 2x4.
Thanks for such glorious wisdom oh wise and mighty one! I really appreciate you helping my perspective when discussing our 2-10 football team. I hope you all forgive me for being so "negative" and hoping for more from the Jags.
I now see the light. Joeckel is young and destined for stardom. In Caldwell we trust!
Quote:^This...
So many people are thirsting for the slightest positive that their perspective is extremely skewed. The goal and standard is a championship caliber team. We need to analyze our roster in light of one that can win a Super Bowl. That is, after all, the ultimate goal right?
How long do expect this to take? This ultimate goal?
Quote:How long do expect this to take? This ultimate goal?
Realistically, if you have the "right" GM and HC then you'd hope to be able to compete for a Super Bowl within 4-5 years of a rebuild. We are in year 2 and I would not call the arrow pointing up. The roster is young so there is "hope" but that hope has not been resulted in wins yet. No one knows if the team will actually improve next year or not. We are all hopeful but the reality is that there are many things that point up and many that point down so only time will tell.
Quote:Thanks for such glorious wisdom oh wise and mighty one! I really appreciate you helping my perspective when discussing our 2-10 football team. I hope you all forgive me for being so "negative" and hoping for more from the Jags.
I now see the light. Joeckel is young and destined for stardom. In Caldwell we trust!
I'm not saying anything of the sort, but hey, feel free to twist it however you need to in order to make yourself feel a little better.
We don't know what Joeckel will develop into at this point. Most here would have expected him to be further along in the process, but that hasn't happened. We'll see if it starts to click for him. He's not nearly as bad as people like you want to label him, but he's not living up to the draft pick. The problem with that mindset (living up to the draft pick) is that he didn't draft himself. He didn't opt to play RT as a rookie when he was a natural LT. He didn't intentionally have his leg rolled up on in his first and only start as a rookie at LT.
The jury is still out because Joeckel is still at the point where he can be developed. At this point with Eugene Monroe, we were seeing similar complaints. He managed to become a serviceable starting LT in the league. Nothing special, but not a disaster either. If we get there with Joeckel, that's good enough.
Quote:Realistically, if you have the "right" GM and HC then you'd hope to be able to compete for a Super Bowl within 4-5 years of a rebuild. We are in year 2 and I would not call the arrow pointing up. The roster is young so there is "hope" but that hope has not been resulted in wins yet. No one knows if the team will actually improve next year or not. We are all hopeful but the reality is that there are many things that point up and many that point down so only time will tell.
Caldwell said just a week ago that these struggles were expected based on where the team had to go in order to begin rebuilding. He pointed out repeatedly that this is the youngest roster in the league and they're asking a lot of very young players to fill vital roles. It's part of the process.
He also said that when the team does turn the corner, it's going to happen very quickly.
By your own standard, you want a team competing for a title within 4-5 years of a rebuild. We're still in the midst of year 2 of a 3 year process. Maybe you should practice a little patience.
Quote:Realistically, if you have the "right" GM and HC then you'd hope to be able to compete for a Super Bowl within 4-5 years of a rebuild. We are in year 2 and I would not call the arrow pointing up. The roster is young so there is "hope" but that hope has not been resulted in wins yet. No one knows if the team will actually improve next year or not. We are all hopeful but the reality is that there are many things that point up and many that point down so only time will tell.
Good enough. Came off as wanting instant gratification. I believe your expectations are on point. I think what we're seeing is the ups and downs of shuffling the roster. You know, who is the best man for the position. This creates inconsistent play. I'm hopeful they'll start building around Bortles instead of trying to fit him in Fisch's little box. Painfully obvious they aren't playing to what strengths there are on offense.
The LT position as a whole is struggling in the NFL. There aren't as many "elite" LT's anymore because how good DE's have become. Having said that, Joeckel is just turrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbRUTHGLu9s
Quote:I'm not saying anything of the sort, but hey, feel free to twist it however you need to in order to make yourself feel a little better.
We don't know what Joeckel will develop into at this point. Most here would have expected him to be further along in the process, but that hasn't happened. We'll see if it starts to click for him. He's not nearly as bad as people like you want to label him, but he's not living up to the draft pick. The problem with that mindset (living up to the draft pick) is that he didn't draft himself. He didn't opt to play RT as a rookie when he was a natural LT. He didn't intentionally have his leg rolled up on in his first and only start as a rookie at LT.
The jury is still out because Joeckel is still at the point where he can be developed. At this point with Eugene Monroe, we were seeing similar complaints. He managed to become a serviceable starting LT in the league. Nothing special, but not a disaster either. If we get there with Joeckel, that's good enough.
I agree with the points highlighted above except for the last one. This is not a personal bash on Joeckel but a failure on the GM. If you're 1st round draft pick turns out to be a "serviceable" player then your GM failed on that pick. You've got to find solid starters/all-Pro players early in the draft. The bigger point here is not necessarily whether Joeckel ends up being a bust but whether or not we have a GM that can hit on more early round picks then he misses and actually build a sustainable contender.
It is too early to make a final judgment on the 2013 class but so far it's not looking good for the early picks. That's the bigger point here. Now, maybe Caldwell learned from his 2013 mistakes and has done better in 2014, time will tell.
Part of the problem with any LT in this city is that they're immediately compared to Tony Boselli. That's a difficult expectation for anyone to live up to.
The point that the dominance of LTs in the league has diminished in recent years is a valid one, especially when lining up against the new breed of athletic pass rushers.
We hopefully haven't seen Joeckel's ceiling yet. We'll see.
Quote:ugh, why do people still always think you have to draft tackles high? Just stupid.
That's because historically, most starting caliber LTs have been drafted high.
Look at our division. Every LT was drafted in the first round.
The AFC East? Three out of the four starting LTs in that division were drafted in the first round. (In fairness, Branden Albert was obtained via trade, though he too was a first round pick)
AFC North? Three out of the four were also drafted in the first round (though in fairness, the Ravens traded for Monroe, a former first round pick)
AFC West? Two out of the four starting LTs were first round picks.
NFC East? Two out of the four LTs were first round picks.
NFC North? Two out of the four LTs were first round picks.
NFC South has only one out of the four LTs being former first round picks.
NFC West has 3 out of four LTs were former first round picks.
That's 20 out of 32 starting LTs were first round picks.
I suspect after this April's draft, at least one other team (Carolina), maybe another (Tampa) will have a first rounder playing LT.
Quote:Part of the problem with any LT in this city is that they're immediately compared to Tony Boselli. That's a difficult expectation for anyone to live up to.
The point that the dominance of LTs in the league has diminished in recent years is a valid one, especially when lining up against the new breed of athletic pass rushers.
We hopefully haven't seen Joeckel's ceiling yet. We'll see.
If that's the case (which it is) - coupled with the decreased practice times after the new CBA, then my point is even stronger: Don't waste your top 5 pick on a tackle!
Draft a couple in rounds 2-4 and I guarantee you, your chance of finding serviceable play is going to be good.
We should draft a lineman in every year in the mid rounds.
Quote:Good enough. Came off as wanting instant gratification. I believe your expectations are on point. I think what we're seeing is the ups and downs of shuffling the roster. You know, who is the best man for the position. This creates inconsistent play. I'm hopeful they'll start building around Bortles instead of trying to fit him in Fisch's little box. Painfully obvious they aren't playing to what strengths there are on offense.
My concern is that there are not enough ups at this point. We are nearing the end of year 2 for Caldwell and Bradley and I was certainly expecting more at this point.
And by more, I mean more positives or flashes from younger players. It's disappointing that Joeckel is a question mark at best, Cyp is a solid far below average player. Gratz is well below average. Sanders needs to be cut. Beadles stinks. There may be a few other examples. There are lots of positives and potential too but these guys were supposed to be future core players...and maybe they still will be but nothing at this point indicates they would be.
Quote:I agree with the points highlighted above except for the last one. This is not a personal bash on Joeckel but a failure on the GM. If you're 1st round draft pick turns out to be a "serviceable" player then your GM failed on that pick. You've got to find solid starters/all-Pro players early in the draft. The bigger point here is not necessarily whether Joeckel ends up being a bust but whether or not we have a GM that can hit on more early round picks then he misses and actually build a sustainable contender.
It is too early to make a final judgment on the 2013 class but so far it's not looking good for the early picks. That's the bigger point here. Now, maybe Caldwell learned from his 2013 mistakes and has done better in 2014, time will tell.
If you get a long-term starting LT out of that pick, and he's an effective starter in the league, that's validation enough. As has already been pointed out, the era of the dominant LT is a memory. Even the best in the league right now have their struggles.