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Quote:Let me take a shot. Being attracted to a woman is a given; it's expected.

 

By coming out as gay he's trying to show that such a situation can be looked at as ok, as not bizarre and heinous. Despite all the laws against gays, all the religious condemnation (and persecution), all the jokes, all the "get out of my house and never come back!", all the crap, that being gay is just the way some people are - not a choice any more than you chose to have brown eyes.

 

And he's a football player! If people can accept football players as being gay, perhaps they can accept them as being ok. Different, but ok. 

 

You know, like being Jewish, lol. The ignorance of us non-Jews about what being Jewish is all about is, to me at least, similar to what we heterosexuals know about being homosexual. 
There are so many things that fall under the bizarre and heinous category that people don't "come out" for though. If you are you, be that way, and people will either like you or not. Simple as that.

Quote:I think it's cute how posters on this board that are usually at odds on everything else like TMD and FBT can come together in ignorance on a non-issue such as someone kissing their boyfriend on TV.


If coming out is such a boon to Michael Sam's career, then why didn't any of the other gay players rush to be the first player to announce their sexual orientation?


There's no agenda here. You're reaching, hard
What's so cute ?

 

You can disagree on many, many, many topics and still have common ground on something.
Quote:There are so many things that fall under the bizarre and heinous category that people don't "come out" for though. If you are you, be that way, and people will either like you or not. Simple as that.
 

Gay people have three alternatives to coming out.

 

1. Pretend it's not true and live a lie.

2. Try to hide any relationships you have and live a lie

3. Just act normal and bring your boyfriend round for dinner or to a work function one day.

 

If he had done 3, you think nobody in the media would have made a big deal of it?

 wish a player would come out about being into bdsm and golden showers, bet nfln and espn wouldn't run that 24-7. plenty of weird sex going on in this world.  just excuse me if I don't care to watch.  most people don't care what two consenting adults wanna do.  they care that you wanna shove it down their throats as something worthwhile or ok.
Quote: wish a player would come out about being into bdsm and golden showers, bet nfln and espn wouldn't run that 24-7. plenty of weird sex going on in this world.  just excuse me if I don't care to watch.  most people don't care what two consenting adults wanna do.  they care that you wanna shove it down their throats as something worthwhile or ok.
 

The real problem here is how you and TravC keep labeling him as bizarre or heinous.
Quote:You better start hiding him from the world then, because he's going to see a whole bunch of stuff.

 

Here was your chance. You don't seem to be "some kind of bigot", and I hope your son will not be one as well.
 

If I saw a man and woman do the exact same thing that happened between Michael Sam and his boyfriend, I would think its a little odd.

 

It's just not something you see everyday.  I don't recall a draft day embrace like that.....well, ever.

 

Good luck to him.  I'm actually going to St Louis this weekend for a quick weekend away.  Maybe I'll be lucky enough to say hi to him and get an autograph.
Quote:The sarcasm you use hides the bigger problem I have with the issue. I am a person of a specific faith (which one I won't mention because of the COC) regardless I do not believe nor do I teach my children to believe that "same sex" anything is okay or normal or acceptable.


that said I'm also a strict lover of liberty and freedom of choice, I support all legislation to allow same sex marriage, I support different types anti-discrimination laws to let the LGBT community be, for political reasons I won't describe to what kind of legislation I support or oppose in general but know that I'm a live and let live kinda guy.


What I didn't appreciate was the public kiss and it's media coverage, I'm not saying there's anything I or anyone else could or should do about it, just saying I didn't appreciate it. Same as I suspect people wouldn't appreciate me walking around wal-mart in a tube top, it's just not something people desire to see.


I'm not asking anyone to do anything about it, I'm not asking any laws be passed about it, I'd be firmly against it. I'm just stating I didn't appreciate it and for those saying it was a perfect opportunity to teach my kids its okay I reject that notion.


The problem is if I don't agree with your view I'm wrong, and your sarcasm attempts to cover that very pointed view. I disagree with you but I'm not trying to tell you what to teach your children about the topic, that's the difference.
I didn't say it was a perfect opportunity for you to tell them it was okay. I said it raised questions and was something parents had to address. It couldn't be hidden. How you addressed it is completely up to you. Maybe your kids never had a conversation about gay people. This was a perfect opportunity for you to explain your beliefs and also teach them that while we may not agree with homosexualtiy we also should respect other people's differences. That is a positive conversation and one that may not be had if your kids didn't see it.
Quote:Gay people have three alternatives to coming out.

 

1. Pretend it's not true and live a lie.

2. Try to hide any relationships you have and live a lie

3. Just act normal and bring your boyfriend round for dinner or to a work function one day.

 

If he had done 3, you think nobody in the media would have made a big deal of it?
#3 doesn't apply to Sam only. I am talking in general. Why the need to have to "come out" and make things official? #3 is the way it should be, live your life as you see fit. No need for some special celebration.
Quote:The real problem here is how you and TravC keep labeling him as bizarre or heinous.
When did I label him that? Never did.
Quote: wish a player would come out about being into bdsm and golden showers, bet nfln and espn wouldn't run that 24-7. plenty of weird sex going on in this world. just excuse me if I don't care to watch. most people don't care what two consenting adults wanna do. they care that you wanna shove it down their throats as something worthwhile or ok.


Most people do care. That is why it is still illegal to get married if you are gay in 33 states. That's about 66%. Please can we stop saying we don't care. People care otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.
Quote:If I saw a man and woman do the exact same thing that happened between Michael Sam and his boyfriend, I would think its a little odd.


It's just not something you see everyday. I don't recall a draft day embrace like that.....well, ever.


Good luck to him. I'm actually going to St Louis this weekend for a quick weekend away. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to say hi to him and get an autograph.


Most draft embraces aren't on a historical level. That should be factored in.
Quote:When did I label him that? Never did.
 

 

Quote:There are so many things that fall under the bizarre and heinous category that people don't "come out" for though. If you are you, be that way, and people will either like you or not. Simple as that.
 

Seriously, maybe you didn't mean it, or maybe it was just so subconscious (much like the "I never see people kiss and hug in public" stuff) that you don't even realize you're doing it.
Quote:#3 doesn't apply to Sam only. I am talking in general. Why the need to have to "come out" and make things official? #3 is the way it should be, live your life as you see fit. No need for some special celebration.


But that is where IMO you are wrong. They still aren't seen as equals in 33 states. And the only way to break down barriers is to do exactly what Michael Sam did, break down barriers.
Quote:Most draft embraces aren't on a historical level. That should be factored in.
Based on recent surveys the # of Americans in support is above 50. 51-53% (per google)

Quote:Most draft embraces aren't on a historical level. That should be factored in.
 

Why?  I've seen many different types of emotions from guys getting drafted, and that response wasn't one of them.

 

Let me ask you this, do you think that kiss was planned just so conversations like these take place?  I do.  If you read the story about Michael Sam coming out, it was planned well in advance.  I think a lot of it is calculated.  Not that it is wrong in this case, I think it takes out the real raw emotion of it though.
Quote:#3 doesn't apply to Sam only. I am talking in general. Why the need to have to "come out" and make things official? #3 is the way it should be, live your life as you see fit. No need for some special celebration.
 

I think quite a few people do live that way. It's different for public figures.

 

For Sam or anyone in the public eye, if he had just lived his life, the same media circus would have followed him around when it was revealed anyway, plus there would have been the constant rumor and suspicion, not to mention the amount of people who would cry 'why did he hide it?'

 

He took control of the situation and made sure it was revealed on his terms.
Quote:Most people do care. That is why it is still illegal to get married if you are gay in 33 states. That's about 66%. Please can we stop saying we don't care. People care otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.
Don't connect marriage to preference in this instance.

 

People can be opposed to one while really not caring what someone does behind closed doors.

 

If you polled folks, the majority would say they really don't care what his preference is.  What bothers them is the in your face method the networks have used to try to force this on the population as a whole. 

 

I don't care that Sam is gay any more than he cares that I'm straight.  The difference here is he has decided to become an advocate by being so public about coming out.  I'm convinced there was intent behind that action, and it was more about advancing his football career by going as public as he possibly could. 

 

Like I've said before, a current player in the league who is gay (and there are gay players) should take this opportunity to come out.  We'll find out very quickly that whoever it might be, it was probably pretty common knowledge he was gay, and teammates have been fine with it.  Why?  Because he's not out there in the media trying to become an advocate.  It's simply who he is.

 

The media has made this a circus, and Sam has willingly played the role of subject.  Once the novelty wears off, his career will fade away into the ether.   
Quote:Based on recent surveys the # of Americans in support is above 50. 51-53% (per google)


And that is stil 47% that dont. Big number. Also, how do you think we got to this point? By gay people keeping it to themselves and staying in the closet? Nope.
Quote:Seriously, maybe you didn't mean it, or maybe it was just so subconscious (much like the "I never see people kiss and hug in public" stuff) that you don't even realize you're doing it.
I was quoting someone who replied to a question I posed about why there is a need to "come out". He used "heinous and bizarre". I simply replied saying that there are other "heinous and bizarre" things that go on that people don't feel the need to come out about. I am trying to grasp the need on the whole coming out thing. So no, I never categorized anyone in that light, much like I haven't said anything about "I never see people kiss and hug in public".
Quote:If his teammates knew already, isn't that all that really mattered?  The guy came out on national TV.  That wasn't an attempt to lift the burden.  That was an attempt to get the spotlight. 

 

In the end, his strategy didn't help his draft stock much.  But not for a lack of trying.  I think his coming out was a very calculated move that just didn't pan out as he'd hoped it would.
Someone had to take the "calculated move" or it never would have happened. What would you be saying if an active NFL backup or special teams guy had come out between the end of the season and the start of free agency? Would you accuse him of doing it solely to "get the spotlight"? What if it had been a star player? Where does the line between being a pioneer and hogging the spotlight exist for you? A guy on the level of Peyton Manning, Richard Sherman or Adrian Peterson (just throwing names, not suggesting anything) wasn't going to be the first, nor would a guy projected into rounds one or two. The bridge had to be crossed, and Sam, as a fringe prospect, was the perfect guy to do it.

 

Quote:The problem that I have is that right now we have a seventh round compensatory selection being pushed down our throats as someone to be idolized.

 

Fast forward to this morning.  you have people on national television admimatly and with raised voices telling me and my family that we need to see this guy kissing his boyfriend we need to see it, we need to like it and if we have a problem with it then we're someone inhuman insensitive or being accused of being some closet case.  The blatant hypocrisy on this issue is just plain sickening. 

 

And last but not least, and this may suprise you.  I'm really legitimately praying for this kid.  Because i know, that everyone singing his praises right now doesn't really give a hoot about him.  They just care about the soundbyte.
I apologize for reducing a very well-articulated and well thought-out post to these few little lines, but I felt the need to respond to these few points in general.

 

First off, regarding a seventh-round compensatory guy being shoved down our throats, I don't think that there are too many people on this board who realize what a hero Michael Sam is to a fairly large (approximately 9-10%) subset of the American population. He's not just a late-round pick; he's a trailblazer for future NFL players. It'll take time, and it'll take higher profile players coming out, but eventually we'll be to a point where it's not wall-to-wall coverage on ESPN as they desperately hunt for a story on the final day of the draft. It'll just be a one-line blurb in the sports page roundup, and that's how it should be. Thing is, there had to be a Michael Sam, and there had to be a Jason Collins, and there have to be many others before we get to that point.

 

And to your final point about the soundbyte, I question the comment and disagree. I genuinely want Sam to succeed and have a long, great career, but I'm also a realist. He's a 6'2" 255-lb. pass rusher who runs a 4.9. College production is what it is, but the measurables aren't there for him to be remembered as anything more than a journeyman special teamer. Others have overcome iffy triangle numbers (H-W-40) before, but the odds are certainly stacked against him. Even if he does wash out, he's opened the door for others. If he goes to Canton as an individual player based upon his coming out alone, I'll be disappointed, but I don't think that'll happen. If he goes as part of a larger exhibit on homosexuality in the NFL, not for his individual recognition, I'm good with that.

 

Quote:Why was that Dolphins player fined for saying he didn't like seeing Sam and his BF kissing. I'm not going to lie, I was like yuck. 
As much of a supporter as I am of Michael Sam, I really believe that the networks overdid it. An athlete kissing his significant other upon being drafted? Not even worth a second thought, regardless of sexual orientation. The cake thing, though the content didn't bother me, just felt like ESPN was shoving down our throats (literally), and I don't recall ever seeing anything like that from a heterosexual player. I believe that in that one case, and only that one case, coverage overstepped its bounds. As far as spending the final day of the draft focusing on one player, that's nothing new. Anyone remember Marcus Vick? Caleb Campbell? Danny Woodhead? ESPN and NFLN go story-hunting to make the selection of career backups and one-and-done special teamers feel like it's worth watching, and Michael Sam is the best final-day story to come along in a long time.

 

Quote:Because George Orwell's 1984....read it. 
Again with the poo. I have read 1984, a dozen or so times, in fact. It's my favorite book, and arguably one of the finest ever written. I actually wrote and defended a college thesis on the application of 1984's content to patterns and habits in current society. That paper was written back in 2002; I only wish I were able to write it again today, because we're about a dozen steps closer to that fictional society than we were then. I still live with the dream of someday moving to a Scandinavian country, where surveillance of citizens by public and private entities isn't just frowned upon; it's legislated out of existence. But that's beside the point.

 

I do disagree with the decision to suspend and fine Don Jones, because I believe that a player should be able to speak his mind, no matter how controversial that speech is. If a team doesn't like it, they're free to cut him. Jones could have been quietly waived following the post-draft minicamps in favor of a tryout player, and no one would have said a thing beyond, "He's the guy who criticized Michael Sam on Twitter." Instead, by suspending and fining a player for speaking his mind, the Dolphins--and the NFLPA, by way of not fighting it--have introduced a confusing and, frankly, concerning precedent allowing teams to act against players who publicly express an opinion that can not in any way translate to criticism or defamation of his own team. It's a complicated question and one that the NFL and NFLPA need to address quickly.

 

At the same time, let's also remember that we're dealing with the Dolphins, a team gutted by a bullying scandal in which suggestions of homosexuality were at the center of everything. Forgive them for being a bit oversensitive about the issue and acting accordingly. The last thing that team wants is a new round of public and private scrutiny.

 

That said, equating that decision to 1984 is ridiculous. In the 1984 world, Jones would have been quietly abducted, taken to a reform center, made to believe the party line, then summarily killed. Please don't make yourself look ridiculous by suggesting that the Dolphins fining and suspending a player is even close to a 1984-esque societal action.
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