Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Roster turnover CAN be an issue because one of the most critical components for effective play on either side of the ball is continuity.  Whether you're talking about an offensive line, skill positions, or on the defensive side of the ball, the more cohesive an experienced a team is playing together as a unit, the more effectively they will execute the plays.  It's not an excuse.  It's a fact.  Have you ever played the game? 

If you had read the earlier posts, I agree that the roster turnover has had a significant impact on the defense and also special teams.  And, I was not stating that roster turnover does not negatively impact a unit.  However, given that Joeckel is the sole rookie in the base offense, I don't agree that roster turnover is as big of a factor to the offense's poor play today.  On a side note, yes, I played in college for 4 years (1982-1985) at a major university within the previously known Southwest Conference, as a defensive back.  Although I respect your posts, I did not see any reason for your intended insult.  

Quote:Bradfield was the starter. Bringing up Whimper is a straw man argument.


 

Certainly there's room for disagreement, but at this point I don't see Joeckel doing any better than Bradfield did last year.


 

I saw at least two missed tackles by Cyprien yesterday. He's not better than Landry at this point.


 

And that was the OP's statement that there has not been one position so far where the play is better. Hayes is not better than Daryl Smith. Whether he's younger or not is immaterial. Neither one is a long-term solution at LB.


 

Marks and Miller are probably just as good as Alualu and Knighton, but not better.


 

It takes time for rookies to develop, and I wouldn't expect Joeckel and Cyprien to be better at this point. But Caldwell chose not to sign a single starter-quality player in free agency, and this year free agency was the best bargain it has ever been. Whether you agree or disagree with that choice, it has resulted in a lack of upgraded play at this point, and ChiefJag can make that claim.

BAHAHAHA. YOU'RE REACHING SO HARD.

Quote:Chiefs right, name ONE position we improved this off-season.

 

The fact we can't name one position we improved means one of two things:

 

A.) We went into this season with the plan of sucking and figured we'd just gut the roster and evaluate whatever was left over, an extended preseason if you will

 

B.) We thought we upgraded a few position but made the wrong moves and are now worse at those said positions.

 

Either way that's a backwards way to build a roster, you don't go back to then go forward again, forget whatever analogies you've heard in the past.

 

Every week I'm becoming less and less confident in this new "direction", that so many are ready to deem the "right" direction already.

 

If I'm trying to get to New York and I start out going South then all of the sudden decide to go West, I'm still going the WRONG Direction, feels like this rebuild right now.

 

 

No...YOU can't name one position of improvement.

 

As others have indicated, RT and SS represent areas of improvement.  I'd also throw CB into that mix as well.  I'd say thus far, Gratz has played better than Ross or Mathis played last year.

 

As far as going backwards before going forward, right off the top of my head, I can think of two examples of teams doing just that.

 

The 1988 Cowboys (Landry's last team) finished 3-13 and wound up with the top draft pick in the 1989 draft.  They picked Troy Aikman, Daryl Johnston and Mark Stepnoski in that draft.  The 1989 season saw them finish 2 games worse, finishing 1-15.  That rebuild wound up successful to say the least.

 

Bringing it closer to home, the 2002 Jaguars (TC's last) finished 6-10.  Shack and JDR took over in 2003, drafted BL, Rashean Mathis, and Vince Manuwai, among others, and finished 5-11.  They wound up going 9-7 the next year, missing the playoffs by a game, and then 12-4 the next year, making the playoffs.  A Garrard meltdown cost the team a winning season in 2006 as the team finished 8-8, and the team rebounded to make the playoffs in 2007.

 

These examples should show several things.

 

1.  Just because a franchise loses more the first year of a new regime than it did the previous year doesn't mean the draft class they brought in was a failure.  I'd say Aikman/Johnston/Stepnoski was quite the trio for Dallas, while BL/Rashean and Manuwai were a decent start for Shack.  Joeckel, Cyprien and Gratz have all had their moments-good and bad thus far.

 

2.  Sometimes it takes a new regime time to gain its footing from a coaching staff/scheme perspective.  One similarity between JJ and JDR is that their first year or so, they struggled with their offensive coordinators.  Dallas had Shula (Mike or Dave) as their offensive coordinator for Aikman's first two years before they hired Norv Turner.  JDR hired Bill Musgrave as OC in 2003, went to Smith as his replacement the next year, and the offense and team had more success.  In the paper today, Frenette made mention of Bradley considering scrapping the zone blocking scheme.  I'm not definitively pointing a finger at Fisch (or any particular coach) yet, but sometimes it takes a while for the coaches to see what works from a coaching perspective.

 

3.  As you know it takes time to get your players on the team.  The draft is seven rounds now.  As has been expressed ad nauseum with the Smith threads, you can't realistically expect any major positive impact from players picked after the 3rd round.  It took Dallas three full offseasons in drafts with 12 rounds with the windfall from the Walker trade aiding them to go from 3-13 in 1988 to the playoffs in 1991.  It took three full offseasons for Jack and Shack to go from TC's last 6-10 team to the playoffs, and that was with guys like Fred Taylor, Stroud and Henderson-all in their primes, on the roster.  Caldwell and Bradley thus far do not have the luxury of a 12 round draft, the windfall of a Herschel Walker deal, nor do they have a Stroud and Henderson on their roster.

I would like to go back to the days where I didn't know the front office guys by name or anything.  I watch the games and all the pieces are not complete crap.  The team has a long way to go but at least we are not employing stop gap measures this year.  This is a rebuild commitment for the first time since the expansion team days.

Quote:I would like to go back to the days where I didn't know the front office guys by name or anything.  I watch the games and all the pieces are not complete crap.  The team has a long way to go but at least we are not employing stop gap measures this year.  This is a rebuild commitment for the first time since the expansion team days.

 

I wouldn't go that far. 

 

I think the QB situation is pretty much a stop gap measure for this year.  The same is true for the DE position.  That's two critical components where we're dealing with band aids for now.

Quote:I wouldn't go that far. 

 

I think the QB situation is pretty much a stop gap measure for this year.  The same is true for the DE position.  That's two critical components where we're dealing with band aids for now.

 

I mean that this is a commitment to a rebuild and not someone telling us how close we are when the product on the field is awful.  But yes the most critical position of all sports this year is unfortunately a stop gap.

Quote:No...YOU can't name one position of improvement.

 

As others have indicated, RT and SS represent areas of improvement.  I'd also throw CB into that mix as well.  I'd say thus far, Gratz has played better than Ross or Mathis played last year.

 

As far as going backwards before going forward, right off the top of my head, I can think of two examples of teams doing just that.

 

The 1988 Cowboys (Landry's last team) finished 3-13 and wound up with the top draft pick in the 1989 draft.  They picked Troy Aikman, Daryl Johnston and Mark Stepnoski in that draft.  The 1989 season saw them finish 2 games worse, finishing 1-15.  That rebuild wound up successful to say the least.

 

Bringing it closer to home, the 2002 Jaguars (TC's last) finished 6-10.  Shack and JDR took over in 2003, drafted BL, Rashean Mathis, and Vince Manuwai, among others, and finished 5-11.  They wound up going 9-7 the next year, missing the playoffs by a game, and then 12-4 the next year, making the playoffs.  A Garrard meltdown cost the team a winning season in 2006 as the team finished 8-8, and the team rebounded to make the playoffs in 2007.

 

I don't think one can definitively say that either RT or safety is an improvement so far. It's hard to judge RT when the interior of the line is so bad, and Joeckel still makes a lot of mistakes. I saw Cyprien miss at least two tackles he should have made yesterday. His one big play was a blitz, not what you draft a safety for. There is room for argument, it's not a certainty one way or the other, but I don't see definite improvement over last year in the play at those positions so far.


 

The Cowboys needed the luck of the Walker trade partly because free agency wasn't really a factor until 1993 (Reggie White). Nowadays it's easier to build a playoff team quickly. The Jags came thisclose to making the playoffs in JDR's second year, in spite of the Hugh Douglas mistake. Were Musgrave a merely competent OC, the Jags would have won their home game against the tacks and finished 10-6.

Quote:BAHAHAHA. YOU'RE REACHING SO HARD.

 

Thank you Tommy. Your deep analysis and insight adds so much to the knowledge base of this board.

Quote:I don't think one can definitively say that either RT or safety is an improvement so far. It's hard to judge RT when the interior of the line is so bad, and Joeckel still makes a lot of mistakes. I saw Cyprien miss at least two tackles he should have made yesterday. His one big play was a blitz, not what you draft a safety for. There is room for argument, it's not a certainty one way or the other, but I don't see definite improvement over last year in the play at those positions so far.


 

The Cowboys needed the luck of the Walker trade partly because free agency wasn't really a factor until 1993 (Reggie White). Nowadays it's easier to build a playoff team quickly. The Jags came thisclose to making the playoffs in JDR's second year, in spite of the Hugh Douglas mistake. Were Musgrave a merely competent OC, the Jags would have won their home game against the tacks and finished 10-6.

 

1. Regarding Cyprien, yes, he has missed some tackles, but he had two hits he put on Raiders receivers that seemed harder than anything Landry had during his time here.  I'm sure I could look up stats that could debunk this statement, but I don't recall Landry forcing any fumbles or having any sacks last year, either.  Also consider he is young and adjusting to the speed of the game and the scheme.  I think barring injury, he'll be a better player week 10 than he is now, and what he is now isn't bad at all.  One thing I find interesting about this portion of your argument is your lack of comment on Gratz being an improvement over Mathis/Ross.  Was that mere oversight on your part, is it too soon/too small a sample size for you to make that call at this point, or is that a tacit admission that he represents improvement over Ross/Mathis last year, even if slight? 

 

2.  Yes, the current Jaguars have the luxury of free agency.  However, the likelihood of the Jaguars finding legitimate stars in free agency is smaller, I think, than in the draft.  I think free agency is more apt to get you role players than stars.  Dallas utilized the draft in the aftermath of the Walker and Walsh trades to get star caliber players like Emmitt Smith, Kevin Smith, Darren Woodson, etc.

Quote:  Was that mere oversight on your part, is it too soon/too small a sample size for you to make that call at this point, or is that a tacit admission that he represents improvement over Ross/Mathis last year, even if slight? 

 

 

 

Gratz is the improvement over Cox because he's only missed 2/3rds of his career games so far. Ball is better than Mathis/Ross from last year.

Quote:1. Regarding Cyprien, yes, he has missed some tackles, but he had two hits he put on Raiders receivers that seemed harder than anything Landry had during his time here.  I'm sure I could look up stats that could debunk this statement, but I don't recall Landry forcing any fumbles or having any sacks last year, either.  Also consider he is young and adjusting to the speed of the game and the scheme.  I think barring injury, he'll be a better player week 10 than he is now, and what he is now isn't bad at all.  One thing I find interesting about this portion of your argument is your lack of comment on Gratz being an improvement over Mathis/Ross.  Was that mere oversight on your part, is it too soon/too small a sample size for you to make that call at this point, or is that a tacit admission that he represents improvement over Ross/Mathis last year, even if slight? 

 

2.  Yes, the current Jaguars have the luxury of free agency.  However, the likelihood of the Jaguars finding legitimate stars in free agency is smaller, I think, than in the draft.  I think free agency is more apt to get you role players than stars.  Dallas utilized the draft in the aftermath of the Walker and Walsh trades to get star caliber players like Emmitt Smith, Kevin Smith, Darren Woodson, etc.

 

Oversight. Although I'd compare Gratz with Cox and call them equal (good CBs when healthy). But I think Will Blackmon's play is an upgrade over Ross, so there's one position where I would say the Jags have actually improved. I also listed slot receiver as an improvement in an earlier post.


 

Also, the play of the entire defense dropped off last year from 2011. I doubt that every single player declined in the same year, so I would put some of the blame on coaching, and hope for improvement this year just from a coaching improvement.


 

Free agency usually doesn't get you 'stars' these days, but it can get you good starters. Right now the Jags are short on those. To be playoff caliber a team needs only a couple of stars if it fills the rest of the roster with good starters. QB is, of course, by far the most important position.


 

EDIT: as flsptsgod has pointed out, Ball is also an upgrade over Ross.

Quote:1. Regarding Cyprien, yes, he has missed some tackles, but he had two hits he put on Raiders receivers that seemed harder than anything Landry had during his time here.  I'm sure I could look up stats that could debunk this statement, but I don't recall Landry forcing any fumbles or having any sacks last year, either.  Also consider he is young and adjusting to the speed of the game and the scheme.  I think barring injury, he'll be a better player week 10 than he is now, and what he is now isn't bad at all.  One thing I find interesting about this portion of your argument is your lack of comment on Gratz being an improvement over Mathis/Ross.  Was that mere oversight on your part, is it too soon/too small a sample size for you to make that call at this point, or is that a tacit admission that he represents improvement over Ross/Mathis last year, even if slight? 

 

2.  Yes, the current Jaguars have the luxury of free agency.  However, the likelihood of the Jaguars finding legitimate stars in free agency is smaller, I think, than in the draft.  I think free agency is more apt to get you role players than stars.  Dallas utilized the draft in the aftermath of the Walker and Walsh trades to get star caliber players like Emmitt Smith, Kevin Smith, Darren Woodson, etc.

 

So the vast improvement over an entire offseason of this brilliant new regime is Gratz over Rashean/Ross..........never mind every QB we've faced has sliced this secondary up and down the field but we improved the SS and CB position, sorry not buying it.

Quote:Also, the play of the entire defense dropped off last year from 2011. I doubt that every single player declined in the same year, so I would put some of the blame on coaching, and hope for improvement this year just from a coaching improvement.

 

That's consistent with the implosion of the offense. More time on the field means a lesser defense no matter what team it is.

Quote:So the vast improvement over an entire offseason of this brilliant new regime is Gratz over Rashean/Ross..........never mind every QB we've faced has sliced this secondary up and down the field but we improved the SS and CB position, sorry not buying it.

 

Week 3 bro, ya gotta pace yourself. 3 rookies and Will Blackmon played yesterday, at least give them until October...

Quote:That's consistent with the implosion of the offense. More time on the field means a lesser defense no matter what team it is.

 

True. The Jags defense last year was not so bad in yards per play, but the opposition ran a lot more plays than average.

Quote:Week 3 bro, ya gotta pace yourself. 3 rookies and Will Blackmon played yesterday, at least give them until October...

 

I hear yea, I needed to chill out. I'm just taking this third rebuild hard. My bad probably coming off to critical of the front office I don't mean to be.

 

My bad guys not trying to be a Debbie downer here, just cautious that's all.

Quote:So the vast improvement over an entire offseason of this brilliant new regime is Gratz over Rashean/Ross..........never mind every QB we've faced has sliced this secondary up and down the field but we improved the SS and CB position, sorry not buying it.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/te...x/2013.htm

 

The defense gave up <300 yds passing combined against KC and Oakland.

 

Now were there mitigating factors?  Sure.

 

KC played on a short field much of the game.

 

Oakland has a very young QB.

 

But to say every QB shredded this pass defense isn't accurate.

 

Wilson shredded this pass defense, and keep in mind Gratz and Lowery didn't play much/if at all.

Quote:I hear yea, I needed to chill out. I'm just taking this third rebuild hard. My bad probably coming off to critical of the front office I don't mean to be.

 

My bad guys not trying to be a Debbie downer here, just cautious that's all.

 

Perfectly understandable.  You want positive results.  We all do. 

 

I hope I'm not premature in my assessments.  I hope Caldwell was right in his assessments of these guys.

Quote:Perfectly understandable.  You want positive results.  We all do. 

 

I hope I'm not premature in my assessments.  I hope Caldwell was right in his assessments of these guys.

 

I hope so as well, I really do, I don't think I can handle another rebuild after this one

Quote:Wrong. I said I don't trust Khan but never said one negative word about Bradley or Caldwell. Now I'm saying they own this team.

 

And you have the audacity to say Caldwell and Dave are "tanking" so we can get a new QB?? Wow, now that right there is reason to like them. HIre a coach and GM who are purposely tanking the season. Do you think Khan knows this? Do you want them to be GM and coach again next year if you know they have this character trait to purposely tank a season? Do you want to buy tickets to a game knowing the coach is tanking the season? Do you think players want to play for a coach who is purposely tanking? Wow. Just Wow.

 

Regards................the Chiefjag

 

Are you still in the bar?  I just want to make sure I'll get a non emotional response.  Do you think they are tanking the season?  If not, then what is the point of your post above?