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(03-07-2018, 10:57 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 09:56 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]And let's keep acting like he wouldn't have made our offense way better last year if not injured. The argument could easily be made that we would have made it to the super bowl with him.
We finally got our number 1 WR and every one wants to go back to the days of Matt Jones and Reggie Willams because we made it to the AFC game with out our number 1 WR. If your goal is to only make it back to the AFC Championship game then yeah were better off without him.
No one is saying ARob wouldn’t make the team better. I’ve already conceded that point. The question is how much does ARob make the team better? Taking everything in consideration (past performance and injury) Is it a 16 million dollar improvement? There’s a huge difference between value and worth and I believe that’s where the disconnect is.
For a comparisons sake, Calais is getting paid 15-16 million per year. Will Arob’s impact on the team this year be the same as Calais was this past year?
WRs are one of the most valuable positions in the league but not as valuable as pass rushers. An all pro pass rusher is always going to be more valuable than a very good receiver.
Better off to view him in the frame of other receivers. For instance do you think Nuk is worth his 16 million a year?
I think he’s worth the franchise tag. Yes, you’re overpaying, but you are keeping a 24 year old former pro bowler around for another year to prove it. If he gets 850 yards and 6 TDs, you let him go or offer him a small deal. If he has 1400 yards (which he has done before), you have yourself a 25 year old STUD which you absolutely keep.
IMO you’re paying an extra 3-4 million this year to give yourself that security that he will be on your team in case he fulfill his potential.
(03-07-2018, 11:09 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 10:57 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]No one is saying ARob wouldn’t make the team better. I’ve already conceded that point. The question is how much does ARob make the team better? Taking everything in consideration (past performance and injury) Is it a 16 million dollar improvement? There’s a huge difference between value and worth and I believe that’s where the disconnect is.
For a comparisons sake, Calais is getting paid 15-16 million per year. Will Arob’s impact on the team this year be the same as Calais was this past year?
I feel he would make that big of an impact for us. Him being on the field makes the running game better and Westbrook and Cole better. Yes he wasnt fantastc in 16 but in his 2 games with Marrone as coach he was back to his old self because they used him right.
At the end of the day I think he worth it and will most likely get paid 13 to 14 mil a year and hes well worth that.
Is he worth that on a bum knee? History says players will struggle their first year back from an ACL, do you agree?
(03-07-2018, 11:17 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]I think he’s worth the franchise tag. Yes, you’re overpaying, but you are keeping a 24 year old former pro bowler around for another year to prove it. If he gets 850 yards and 6 TDs, you let him go or offer him a small deal. If he has 1400 yards (which he has done before), you have yourself a 25 year old STUD which you absolutely keep.
IMO you’re paying an extra 3-4 million this year to give yourself that security that he will be on your team in case he fulfill his potential.
The problem with that line of thinking is in addition to overpaying when you don’t have to, you start setting a precedent that other players who’s contract is coming up will see. That’s bad business.
Yes, if we have another 24-year old former pro bowler at a premium position (good problem to have) then you should franchise them unless you can sign them to an extension.
You shouldn’t be in this position... we overpaid for a an average to slightly above average Center, we overpaid for Hurns, we spent tons of money in free agency on defensive and now can’t keep good, young players? It’s ridiculous.
(03-07-2018, 11:16 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 10:57 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]No one is saying ARob wouldn’t make the team better. I’ve already conceded that point. The question is how much does ARob make the team better? Taking everything in consideration (past performance and injury) Is it a 16 million dollar improvement? There’s a huge difference between value and worth and I believe that’s where the disconnect is.
For a comparisons sake, Calais is getting paid 15-16 million per year. Will Arob’s impact on the team this year be the same as Calais was this past year?
WRs are one of the most valuable positions in the league but not as valuable as pass rushers. An all pro pass rusher is always going to be more valuable than a very good receiver.
Better off to view him in the frame of other receivers. For instance do you think Nuk is worth his 16 million a year?
Take a look at Hopkins stat line and then take a look at Arob’s. Hopkins is a top 5 WR in the league right now.
(03-07-2018, 11:17 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]I think he’s worth the franchise tag. Yes, you’re overpaying, but you are keeping a 24 year old former pro bowler around for another year to prove it. If he gets 850 yards and 6 TDs, you let him go or offer him a small deal. If he has 1400 yards (which he has done before), you have yourself a 25 year old STUD which you absolutely keep.
IMO you’re paying an extra 3-4 million this year to give yourself that security that he will be on your team in case he fulfill his potential.
No you aren’t giving up an extra 3-4 million this year. You are giving up 16 million for one year since he is currently not under contract. That is 16 million less that we cannot roll over to next year.
I’d be pissed as a fan if we paid him 16 million for 850 yards and 6 td and end up losing yannick or jack because we don’t have enough cap to roll over to next year.
We will seen soon enough what level he can play at wether it’s with us or another team. I really don’t want to make it sound like I think he will suck. I don’t. I actually hope he gets back to it I just don’t see how you pay him that much based on what he’s done and injury history.
I get his potential is through the roof but his resume is not. That is what I base my opinion off of but we all know what they say about opinions lol.
Fabulous conversation by the way guys
If he turns it around and is a stud, he’s a cornerpiece for the future. AROB in 2015 was our best offensive skill player to ever put on a Jags uniform not named Fred, Maurice, or Jimmy.
If he balls out, you sign him to a huge extension.
Want to re sign Yannick? At that point you let go of Calais Campbell and/or Dareus which frees up a ton of room.
You may have tough decisions to make in the future but I believe this will come back haunt us in the future.
(03-07-2018, 11:33 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, if we have another 24-year old former pro bowler at a premium position (good problem to have) then you should franchise them unless you can sign them to an extension.
You shouldn’t be in this position... we overpaid for a an average to slightly above average Center, we overpaid for Hurns, we spent tons of money in free agency on defensive and now can’t keep good, young players? It’s ridiculous.
While I disagree with you that we overpaid, neither of the guys you mentioned is hindering us from re-signing ARob. Again, we offered him a contract before camp and he turned it down. (Im sure it was a fair contract because in your words we like to overpay our guys.) But the reason he’s not under contract is because ARob believes his value is more than what the team believes he is worth....or he doesn’t want to play for the Jags anymore, which could be entirely possible.
(03-07-2018, 09:56 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 07:27 PM)Etdavis2006 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol y’all crack me up. We literally went to the AFC Championship game without him last year. We do not need him lol. What they hell are y’all talking about.
Would it be nice to keep him, absolutely. I don’t think anyone thinks the guy sucks but let’s get real for a minute. He’s coming off an ACL and proly can’t even pass a physical right now. That is huge. On top of that his previous year he put up less than 900 yards and 6 tds lol. If you think that’s worth 16 million a year so be it I’m just happy you aren’t running the franchise.
Like stated you have to have limits. Hes not ODB, JJ, AJ or AB. He doesn’t get whatever he wants because he has not shown the ability to produce at a high level consistently to warrant that or have we been so starved for talent we are willing to pay a one legged wr top 5 money because of something he did 2 years ago pre-injury?
Geez lol
What are you talking about? We lost him last year and saw the result lol.
This is getting comical
I guess last year didn’t happen. No ACL no AFCG
Let’s just live in 2015
And let's keep acting like he wouldn't have made our offense way better last year if not injured. The argument could easily be made that we would have made it to the super bowl with him.
We finally got our number 1 WR and every one wants to go back to the days of Matt Jones and Reggie Willams because we made it to the AFC game with out our number 1 WR. If your goal is to only make it back to the AFC Championship game then yeah were better off without him.
Again what you are talking about is hypothetical. We don’t know what would have happened if he played last year. We may have won the super bowl or we may have gone 6-10. We have no clue. What we do know is we lost him for the season to an ACL tear a year after he had a 883 yard 6 td year. We also went to the AFCG without him. That’s is what actually happened.
We have never seen him contribute to a winning team so we cannot say what would happened with him. We do know what has happened without him though.
(03-07-2018, 11:39 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]If he turns it around and is a stud, he’s a cornerpiece for the future. AROB in 2015 was our best offensive skill player to ever put on a Jags uniform not named Fred, Maurice, or Jimmy.
If he balls out, you sign him to a huge extension.
Want to re sign Yannick? At that point you let go of Calais Campbell and/or Dareus which frees up a ton of room.
You may have tough decisions to make in the future but I believe this will come back haunt us in the future.
Or you let someone else over pay him and keep all the guys who you actually won games with not just put up garbage stats
Yannick, Jack, and Ramsey are all only entering their 3rd year. Ramsey stays for another 2 easily because we will pick up his 5th year option. You see who plays really well the next year, if Yannick and Jack are pro bowl difference makers, you start working out a huge deal. If that means Linder has to go, Jackson, Dareus, or Campbell have to go - so be it, you’re always better off keeping 23/24 year olds that you drafted instead of keeping older Free Agent signings.
I hope we’re in the situation where all of them are all pros which makes it super hard to resign them. That’s good. At that point you let decent and overpaid players like Linder go because we’ve shown he is replaceable and frankly he’s far from dominant at his position.
(03-07-2018, 11:23 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 11:09 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]I feel he would make that big of an impact for us. Him being on the field makes the running game better and Westbrook and Cole better. Yes he wasnt fantastc in 16 but in his 2 games with Marrone as coach he was back to his old self because they used him right.
At the end of the day I think he worth it and will most likely get paid 13 to 14 mil a year and hes well worth that.
Is he worth that on a bum knee? History says players will struggle their first year back from an ACL, do you agree?
Depends on the player. It happend week 1 and hes had longer the the average player to recover.
To me Arob is less of a risk then putting our hopes into a rookie which history shows rarely break 1000 yards. Or on an UDFA who had a good year (which worked great with Hurns right) or Westbrook who could go ether way and really wasn't good against top corners.
I think the gorilla in the room is that we (Dave) has let this team get out control very quickly.
The philosophy of building a winner has always been to draft, develop, resign your guys.
Because of our miserable failures in the first few years, we’ve had to completely abandon this philosophy and now are fighting to money to resign good, young players. Oh well. If this was part of the plan then I don’t like the plan.
(03-07-2018, 11:50 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]I think the gorilla in the room is that we (Dave) has let this team get out control very quickly.
The philosophy of building a winner has always been to draft, develop, resign your guys.
Because of our miserable failures in the first few years, we’ve had to completely abandon this philosophy and now are fighting to money to resign good, young players. Oh well. If this was part of the plan then I don’t like the plan.
I disagree.
The players were taking about resigning all drafted players. We could release Dareus and free up around 15mil. We’d be in great shape then. I just don’t think Caldwell sees the value in signing Robinson for close to that figure while undrafted rookies performed similarly to his last full year playing. Otherwise, who else are we unable to keep?
(03-07-2018, 11:43 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]I hope we’re in the situation where all of them are all pros which makes it super hard to resign them. That’s good. At that point you let decent and overpaid players like Linder go because we’ve shown he is replaceable and frankly he’s far from dominant at his position.
Linder is one of the best centers in the entire league. Not sure what you are watching.
(03-07-2018, 11:50 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]I think the gorilla in the room is that we (Dave) has let this team get out control very quickly.
The philosophy of building a winner has always been to draft, develop, resign your guys.
Because of our miserable failures in the first few years, we’ve had to completely abandon this philosophy and now are fighting to money to resign good, young players. Oh well. If this was part of the plan then I don’t like the plan.
This team is in a good place cap wise to keep their own players to fair market deals. All of those free agent contracts were structured in such a way to allow the team an out for this very reason. Still doesn’t mean we should overpay when we don’t have too.
(03-08-2018, 12:04 AM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 11:50 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]I think the gorilla in the room is that we (Dave) has let this team get out control very quickly.
The philosophy of building a winner has always been to draft, develop, resign your guys.
Because of our miserable failures in the first few years, we’ve had to completely abandon this philosophy and now are fighting to money to resign good, young players. Oh well. If this was part of the plan then I don’t like the plan.
This team is in a good place cap wise to keep their own players to fair market deals. All of those free agent contracts were structured in such a way to allow the team an out for this very reason. Still doesn’t mean we should overpay when we don’t have too.
At the end of the day we have to sign some players, my thought is you keep the cap healthy for what got you this far which is defense and build through the draft you can find studs at OG in free agency or the draft, or get the best tightend in the draft and get a WR later.
Let's think of Arob in the context of team building. (Let's pretend he does 100% wanna stay).
We have the cap to sign him this year.
We have the cap flexibility in the future for his signing not to impact us signing our other core young talent (Yannick, Ramsey)
The only players we lose this year because of it is probably Lee , (maybe Hurns?) and maybe Colvin but they seem keen on keeping Hurns + Colvin.
Teams don't let 24 year old pro bowl receivers walk for free. Why? Because they are very hard to find.
This team is being built on a strong defense and running game. With this formula you need fast WR's to open things up. We got a big guy like Hurns as a possession receiver locked up much cheaper. It makes sense honestly. I love letting ARob walk. He's never been happy here so bye Felicia.
(03-07-2018, 11:41 PM)Etdavis2006 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 09:56 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]And let's keep acting like he wouldn't have made our offense way better last year if not injured. The argument could easily be made that we would have made it to the super bowl with him.
We finally got our number 1 WR and every one wants to go back to the days of Matt Jones and Reggie Willams because we made it to the AFC game with out our number 1 WR. If your goal is to only make it back to the AFC Championship game then yeah were better off without him.
Again what you are talking about is hypothetical. We don’t know what would have happened if he played last year. We may have won the super bowl or we may have gone 6-10. We have no clue. What we do know is we lost him for the season to an ACL tear a year after he had a 883 yard 6 td year. We also went to the AFCG without him. That’s is what actually happened.
We have never seen him contribute to a winning team so we cannot say what would happened with him. We do know what has happened without him though.
Dude everything is a hypothetical at this point, saying Cole and Westbrook could be number 1's is a hypothetical saying Arob couldn't have a season like 15 is a hypothetical. At the end of the day give me the guy who has had a 1400 yard season and 14 TD's and been a number 1 over to players that never have.
(03-07-2018, 11:43 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (03-07-2018, 11:23 PM)knarnn Wrote: [ -> ]Is he worth that on a bum knee? History says players will struggle their first year back from an ACL, do you agree?
Depends on the player. It happend week 1 and hes had longer the the average player to recover.
To me Arob is less of a risk then putting our hopes into a rookie which history shows rarely break 1000 yards. Or on an UDFA who had a good year (which worked great with Hurns right) or Westbrook who could go ether way and really wasn't good against top corners.
It did work great with Hurns, who went from 677 yards and 6 TDs as a rookie to 1031 yards and 10 TDs the next year. And Cole appears to be a better receiver than Hurns.
I expected the Jags to use the transition tag on Robinson. I wish he were locked up in a contract with the team. Although they didn't tag Robinson, I don't see a pressing need to use a high pick on a receiver or sign a pricey free agent to replace him. I'm comfortable with Cole, Hurns, and Westbrook as the starting three if that's the result.
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