(08-05-2019, 07:07 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2019, 06:54 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]I posted this in the other thread, but I'll out some of it here.
It doesn't matter what amount he wanted or how long of a deal he wanted. He is never getting the $19 million for this year back. Also he was never going to see the 5th year and maybe not the 4th year of a long term deal. He would either be cut after year 3 or want a new contract.
He is already under contract for this season and at $19-20 million for next season with the tag. His contract was most likely offered for 3 years and would have been close to a guarantee. So if he plays well enough to get a $19-20 million deal, he is getting tagged.
Then he will sign a deal somewhere in year 3. After risking 2 seasons without a guarantee for injury.
So he signs after 2020, but then there is a threat of a lockout from the CBA. So FAs may not sign until after the deal and it may be a rush to sign. He may also have to sit out a long time without a paycheck. Maybe he gets an increase because of the new rules, but who knows.
So at the end of this, he loses $19 million, gains some money in year 3, but not enough to offset the $19 million. So he should just take the Jags 3 year deal and sign again during the 1st full offseason after the CBA. He could set the market price then if he was worth it.
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The leaked deal was for 2 years. With no info about guaranteed money , money at signing or anything else important to judging how good a contract is.
No it wasn't, it was rumored he would get 50 million over the first 2 years. So it was at least a 3 year deal
(08-05-2019, 07:07 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2019, 06:54 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]I posted this in the other thread, but I'll out some of it here.
It doesn't matter what amount he wanted or how long of a deal he wanted. He is never getting the $19 million for this year back. Also he was never going to see the 5th year and maybe not the 4th year of a long term deal. He would either be cut after year 3 or want a new contract.
He is already under contract for this season and at $19-20 million for next season with the tag. His contract was most likely offered for 3 years and would have been close to a guarantee. So if he plays well enough to get a $19-20 million deal, he is getting tagged.
Then he will sign a deal somewhere in year 3. After risking 2 seasons without a guarantee for injury.
So he signs after 2020, but then there is a threat of a lockout from the CBA. So FAs may not sign until after the deal and it may be a rush to sign. He may also have to sit out a long time without a paycheck. Maybe he gets an increase because of the new rules, but who knows.
So at the end of this, he loses $19 million, gains some money in year 3, but not enough to offset the $19 million. So he should just take the Jags 3 year deal and sign again during the 1st full offseason after the CBA. He could set the market price then if he was worth it.
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The leaked deal was for 2 years. With no info about guaranteed money , money at signing or anything else important to judging how good a contract is.
(08-05-2019, 07:53 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2019, 07:07 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The leaked deal was for 2 years. With no info about guaranteed money , money at signing or anything else important to judging how good a contract is.
No it wasn't, it was rumored he would get 50 million over the first 2 years. So it was at least a 3 year deal
Yep a 2 year deal wouldn't make sense as the Jags already have him for 2 years at around $21 million. The deal was a minimum of 3 years.
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(08-05-2019, 07:53 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2019, 07:07 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The leaked deal was for 2 years. With no info about guaranteed money , money at signing or anything else important to judging how good a contract is.
No it wasn't, it was rumored he would get 50 million over the first 2 years. So it was at least a 3 year deal
There wasn't a third year mentioned, and there was no confirmed details on guaranteed money, money at signing , structure or anything else. If you have evidence to the contrary i'll happily look at it
I’ve seen nothing that can definitively state terms of the Jags offer.
Several reporters initially speculated that it was less than 4 years. There is no evidence to be found of the actual length and terms. Not that I’ve been able to find.
Only speculation.
(08-05-2019, 04:23 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2019, 03:49 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Bingo!
If the negotiations only had impact on Ngakoue, then perhaps I am overly nervous.
But it goes beyond Ngakoue.
If others see the team acting unfairly towards one of its biggest play makers and defensive catalysts, they may be biased against the team when it comes to re-signing themselves.
I have already seen articles referring to grousing over how the FO treated Bortles with a new deal when he didn't deserve it. I also saw the Hays Carlyon tweet about some players having a negative view of the FO.
If there is anything to these reports, it doesn't bode well in light of these negotiations.
No, the team should not give away the farm to every player who asks for it. But if anyone has earned a big payday, it's Yann.
I hope they will soon come to terms on a new deal and put all this negative stuff behind them.
Here is former Jaguars' DL Austin Lane's perspective:
https://twitter.com/BrentASJax/status/11...91267?s=20
How have they treated Yannick unfairly?
I don't know, but I also do not assert the team has definitely been unfair to Yannick, for numerous reasons, not the least of which is I am not privy to the contract negotiations.
But Ngakoue is, at least indirectly. Furthermore, if he's talking to teammates about the negotiations, they likely know more about the negotiations than we do.
Each Jaguars player currently on the roster have all negotiated with the team at one point or another, and know or can imagine how the negotiations can be. It's easy to see players on the roster having a different view than those of us who are not privy to the negotiations and have no access to Ngakoue or any in the locker room with access to Ngakoue.
(08-05-2019, 06:54 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]I posted this in the other thread, but I'll out some of it here.
It doesn't matter what amount he wanted or how long of a deal he wanted. He is never getting the $19 million for this year back. Also he was never going to see the 5th year and maybe not the 4th year of a long term deal. He would either be cut after year 3 or want a new contract.
He is already under contract for this season and at $19-20 million for next season with the tag. His contract was most likely offered for 3 years and would have been close to a guarantee. So if he plays well enough to get a $19-20 million deal, he is getting tagged.
Then he will sign a deal somewhere in year 3. After risking 2 seasons without a guarantee for injury.
So he signs after 2020, but then there is a threat of a lockout from the CBA. So FAs may not sign until after the deal and it may be a rush to sign. He may also have to sit out a long time without a paycheck. Maybe he gets an increase because of the new rules, but who knows.
So at the end of this, he loses $19 million, gains some money in year 3, but not enough to offset the $19 million. So he should just take the Jags 3 year deal and sign again during the 1st full offseason after the CBA. He could set the market price then if he was worth it.
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You nailed it. Why play for two million when you could have 19 million. Makes no financial sense. You get an injury guarantee and pretty sure it was rumored almost 50 mil over two yrs. Man that is some serious bank. I think Yann is a lol Cray Cray if he really plays for the 2 mil.
Sign that junk Yann be a seriously Richie rich dude. It would make his head so much better imo.
I look at it like this. You have 2 mil or at least 20 mil on the books in case you get hurt, God forbid. I'd take the 20 mil and then let things play out how they may, since you'd still be in your prime when you next deal comes up. I just don't know any player that has played a full 6 year deal out without complaining around years 4 or 5 for more money. If he wants a 6 year deal, he better not complain AT ALL, until that deal is in its final year.
(08-05-2019, 04:41 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2019, 03:49 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Bingo!
If the negotiations only had impact on Ngakoue, then perhaps I am overly nervous.
But it goes beyond Ngakoue.
If others see the team acting unfairly towards one of its biggest play makers and defensive catalysts, they may be biased against the team when it comes to re-signing themselves.
I have already seen articles referring to grousing over how the FO treated Bortles with a new deal when he didn't deserve it. I also saw the Hays Carlyon tweet about some players having a negative view of the FO.
If there is anything to these reports, it doesn't bode well in light of these negotiations.
No, the team should not give away the farm to every player who asks for it. But if anyone has earned a big payday, it's Yann.
I hope they will soon come to terms on a new deal and put all this negative stuff behind them.
Here is former Jaguars' DL Austin Lane's perspective:
https://twitter.com/BrentASJax/status/11...91267?s=20
Interesting that Yannick and Fournette share an agent. After how the guaranteed money went with Lenny (whether you think it was warranted or not) there was likely already some friction between that agent and the office prior to negotiations.
(08-05-2019, 04:26 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think a lot of fans just aren't used to this because we haven't had any decent players recently. Teams go through this kind of thing every year.
Meanwhile, he's going to try to have a big season so he can get a big contract, either from us or from someone else. That's a good thing.
And if we still can't sign him at the end of the season, we franchise him.
Nah I understand the process perfectly. They're either paying way more or losing him eventually, both options are poor decisions
Not really.
He's been averaging 10 sacks per year and top 5 in pressures.
If he balls out above that, he's earned more, and you know you have an elite pass rusher, as opposed to a very good one.
If he stays on average, they negotiate around where they were before with the tag in pocket, and he loses out on big money THIS year.
I don't think you understand how leverage works. The teams really have all of it until the new CBA is written.
This guy is locked up as a Jag for a couple seasons if we want, or we recoup some draft equity in a trade..
Yan is only getting older, and every year young guys enter the NFL money hungry.
We have Josh Allen who by all accounts is very good.
The only way Yan gets paid way more than 20 mil per year, is if he is clearly one of the best pass rushers this year. Odds are in Jags favor.
I want them to get him locked up as much as the next fan. But I can't be mad at how the team is going about it, especially since NONE of us truly know what was offered and declined.
(08-06-2019, 10:07 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (08-05-2019, 04:41 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting that Yannick and Fournette share an agent. After how the guaranteed money went with Lenny (whether you think it was warranted or not) there was likely already some friction between that agent and the office prior to negotiations.
Nah I understand the process perfectly. They're either paying way more or losing him eventually, both options are poor decisions
Not really.
He's been averaging 10 sacks per year and top 5 in pressures.
If he balls out above that, he's earned more, and you know you have an elite pass rusher, as opposed to a very good one.
If he stays on average, they negotiate around where they were before with the tag in pocket, and he loses out on big money THIS year.
I don't think you understand how leverage works. The teams really have all of it until the new CBA is written.
This guy is locked up as a Jag for a couple seasons if we want, or we recoup some draft equity in a trade..
Yan is only getting older, and every year young guys enter the NFL money hungry.
We have Josh Allen who by all accounts is very good.
The only way Yan gets paid way more than 20 mil per year, is if he is clearly one of the best pass rushers this year. Odds are in Jags favor.
I want them to get him locked up as much as the next fan. But I can't be mad at how the team is going about it, especially since NONE of us truly know what was offered and declined.
Nah thats not how it works. If Yannick simply maintains his current performance (which is as an elite pass rusher btw) and you sign him long term next March say, he's going to be paid more because A) Cap goes up B) Other pass rushers have gotten contracts (Bosa, Clowney etc etc) and C) Making agent and client annoyed can't help.
Contract numbers shift so much each year, just look at the LB contract market exploding due to FA, they dont remain stable at all. So if you want him long term and he plays at the same level or better then you're naturally playing more than you would right now.
Yes they can keep tagging him, but you'll end up paying more over the course of that, and make it harder to keep long term. Or you tag and trade him so he's not hear long term anway.
So yeah, you are either paying more or Yannick won't be here long term. Both are bad outcomes for the team imo (with the caveat that may still get it worked out midseason but seems highly unlikely based on all reporting right now)
(08-06-2019, 10:56 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (08-06-2019, 10:07 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]Not really.
He's been averaging 10 sacks per year and top 5 in pressures.
If he balls out above that, he's earned more, and you know you have an elite pass rusher, as opposed to a very good one.
If he stays on average, they negotiate around where they were before with the tag in pocket, and he loses out on big money THIS year.
I don't think you understand how leverage works. The teams really have all of it until the new CBA is written.
This guy is locked up as a Jag for a couple seasons if we want, or we recoup some draft equity in a trade..
Yan is only getting older, and every year young guys enter the NFL money hungry.
We have Josh Allen who by all accounts is very good.
The only way Yan gets paid way more than 20 mil per year, is if he is clearly one of the best pass rushers this year. Odds are in Jags favor.
I want them to get him locked up as much as the next fan. But I can't be mad at how the team is going about it, especially since NONE of us truly know what was offered and declined.
Nah thats not how it works. If Yannick simply maintains his current performance (which is as an elite pass rusher btw) and you sign him long term next March say, he's going to be paid more because A) Cap goes up B) Other pass rushers have gotten contracts (Bosa, Clowney etc etc) and C) Making agent and client annoyed can't help.
Contract numbers shift so much each year, just look at the LB contract market exploding due to FA, they dont remain stable at all. So if you want him long term and he plays at the same level or better then you're naturally playing more than you would right now.
Yes they can keep tagging him, but you'll end up paying more over the course of that, and make it harder to keep long term. Or you tag and trade him so he's not hear long term anway.
So yeah, you are either paying more or Yannick won't be here long term. Both are bad outcomes for the team imo (with the caveat that may still get it worked out midseason but seems highly unlikely based on all reporting right now)
Yan is worth about 20 mil per year right now... right there with the top guys. If he gets 10 sacks this year... he's still only going to be worth about 20 mil per year.
If he outperforms that, we shouldn't mind paying more because he shows he has another level...
Just to be clear, I'm not doubting his value, or worth, or saying he hasn't earned a deal.
All I'm saying is his leverage is limited and the team is probably going about this the right way, despite what a few fans think.
I'm still optimistic a deal gets done.... and I'm wondering if Yan has an issue with the front loaded style where the team tends to have the ability to cut ties after 2-3 years and he wants locked in longer. If that is the case... a deal may not get done.
If we trade him, whether tag and trade or otherwise, we'll recoup plenty of value. If he's as good as you think, he'll command a high draft pick, and we'll have plenty of cap space to handle Ramsey and Jack no issue.
And with Allen here I'm not sweating it if we have to make a tough choice to move on from Yannick.
(08-06-2019, 03:50 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (08-06-2019, 10:56 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Nah thats not how it works. If Yannick simply maintains his current performance (which is as an elite pass rusher btw) and you sign him long term next March say, he's going to be paid more because A) Cap goes up B) Other pass rushers have gotten contracts (Bosa, Clowney etc etc) and C) Making agent and client annoyed can't help.
Contract numbers shift so much each year, just look at the LB contract market exploding due to FA, they dont remain stable at all. So if you want him long term and he plays at the same level or better then you're naturally playing more than you would right now.
Yes they can keep tagging him, but you'll end up paying more over the course of that, and make it harder to keep long term. Or you tag and trade him so he's not hear long term anway.
So yeah, you are either paying more or Yannick won't be here long term. Both are bad outcomes for the team imo (with the caveat that may still get it worked out midseason but seems highly unlikely based on all reporting right now)
Yan is worth about 20 mil per year right now... right there with the top guys. If he gets 10 sacks this year... he's still only going to be worth about 20 mil per year.
If he outperforms that, we shouldn't mind paying more because he shows he has another level...
Just to be clear, I'm not doubting his value, or worth, or saying he hasn't earned a deal.
All I'm saying is his leverage is limited and the team is probably going about this the right way, despite what a few fans think.
I'm still optimistic a deal gets done.... and I'm wondering if Yan has an issue with the front loaded style where the team tends to have the ability to cut ties after 2-3 years and he wants locked in longer. If that is the case... a deal may not get done.
If we trade him, whether tag and trade or otherwise, we'll recoup plenty of value. If he's as good as you think, he'll command a high draft pick, and we'll have plenty of cap space to handle Ramsey and Jack no issue.
And with Allen here I'm not sweating it if we have to make a tough choice to move on from Yannick.
If he does the same performance this year he's gonna cost more to sign next offseason due to everything I outlined above. Its fairly simple. The two outcomes are you pay him more money or you don't have him long term. If you tag twice you're paying similar to what upfront money would cost on a long term deal.
Allen is great and all but Calais won't be around forever so we will need two good DEs. I don't want a high draft pick to take a dart throw on a player, i want to keep our homegrown, consummate pro pass rusher. It makes zero sense to let a guy like Yannick go.
As I said Its not all doom and gloom yet, but given this front offices track record of baffling franchise hurting decisions its not looking good
comical to me that we still have a couple years to make a deal happen, the team is trying to sign him early and people are whining and crying like we already messed up and lost him lol
(08-07-2019, 08:30 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]comical to me that we still have a couple years to make a deal happen, the team is trying to sign him early and people are whining and crying like we already messed up and lost him lol
I don't think anyones crying, more so saying it's a poor process so far while acknowledging it doesn't mean he's gone or anything yet.
Meanwhile we have others who say Yannick rejected " a fair deal" without any actual important details about what was offered.
(08-07-2019, 09:06 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2019, 08:30 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]comical to me that we still have a couple years to make a deal happen, the team is trying to sign him early and people are whining and crying like we already messed up and lost him lol
I don't think anyones crying, more so saying it's a poor process so far while acknowledging it doesn't mean he's gone or anything yet.
Meanwhile we have others who say Yannick rejected " a fair deal" without any actual important details about what was offered.
Dude... it's the same process as 31 other teams really.
(08-06-2019, 03:50 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (08-06-2019, 10:56 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]Nah thats not how it works. If Yannick simply maintains his current performance (which is as an elite pass rusher btw) and you sign him long term next March say, he's going to be paid more because A) Cap goes up B) Other pass rushers have gotten contracts (Bosa, Clowney etc etc) and C) Making agent and client annoyed can't help.
Contract numbers shift so much each year, just look at the LB contract market exploding due to FA, they dont remain stable at all. So if you want him long term and he plays at the same level or better then you're naturally playing more than you would right now.
Yes they can keep tagging him, but you'll end up paying more over the course of that, and make it harder to keep long term. Or you tag and trade him so he's not hear long term anway.
So yeah, you are either paying more or Yannick won't be here long term. Both are bad outcomes for the team imo (with the caveat that may still get it worked out midseason but seems highly unlikely based on all reporting right now)
Yan is worth about 20 mil per year right now... right there with the top guys. If he gets 10 sacks this year... he's still only going to be worth about 20 mil per year.
If he outperforms that, we shouldn't mind paying more because he shows he has another level...
Just to be clear, I'm not doubting his value, or worth, or saying he hasn't earned a deal.
All I'm saying is his leverage is limited and the team is probably going about this the right way, despite what a few fans think.
I'm still optimistic a deal gets done.... and I'm wondering if Yan has an issue with the front loaded style where the team tends to have the ability to cut ties after 2-3 years and he wants locked in longer. If that is the case... a deal may not get done.
If we trade him, whether tag and trade or otherwise, we'll recoup plenty of value. If he's as good as you think, he'll command a high draft pick, and we'll have plenty of cap space to handle Ramsey and Jack no issue.
And with Allen here I'm not sweating it if we have to make a tough choice to move on from Yannick.
(Emphasis added)
Granted I am not Yan's agent, so aside from wanting to be paid what he thinks his skills and production are worth, I'm not sure why the emphasized portion would be problematic for Yan.
Given the nature of the game where injury-even serious injury-is a high probability, I would think he would want as much of his money up front as possible, considering guaranteed contracts are the overwhelming exception rather than the rule.
(08-07-2019, 09:13 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ] (08-06-2019, 03:50 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]Yan is worth about 20 mil per year right now... right there with the top guys. If he gets 10 sacks this year... he's still only going to be worth about 20 mil per year.
If he outperforms that, we shouldn't mind paying more because he shows he has another level...
Just to be clear, I'm not doubting his value, or worth, or saying he hasn't earned a deal.
All I'm saying is his leverage is limited and the team is probably going about this the right way, despite what a few fans think.
I'm still optimistic a deal gets done.... and I'm wondering if Yan has an issue with the front loaded style where the team tends to have the ability to cut ties after 2-3 years and he wants locked in longer. If that is the case... a deal may not get done.
If we trade him, whether tag and trade or otherwise, we'll recoup plenty of value. If he's as good as you think, he'll command a high draft pick, and we'll have plenty of cap space to handle Ramsey and Jack no issue.
And with Allen here I'm not sweating it if we have to make a tough choice to move on from Yannick.
(Emphasis added)
Granted I am not Yan's agent, so aside from wanting to be paid what he thinks his skills and production are worth, I'm not sure why the emphasized portion would be problematic for Yan.
Given the nature of the game where injury-even serious injury-is a high probability, I would think he would want as much of his money up front as possible, considering guaranteed cntracts are the overwhelming exception rather than the rule.
I would agree with you here. I'm just spitballing with the rumors of "short deal" and how the team usually structures...
Surely they wouldn't lowball Yan with 3 year 60 mil with only 40 gtd or something?
(08-07-2019, 09:11 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2019, 09:06 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think anyones crying, more so saying it's a poor process so far while acknowledging it doesn't mean he's gone or anything yet.
Meanwhile we have others who say Yannick rejected " a fair deal" without any actual important details about what was offered.
Dude... it's the same process as 31 other teams really.
Not the same front office or same scenario though. If we had a high performing front office there'd be a lot less skepticism.
And as I've said multiple times already, it's not close to over and they can still resign him.
(08-07-2019, 09:15 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (08-07-2019, 09:13 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](Emphasis added)
Granted I am not Yan's agent, so aside from wanting to be paid what he thinks his skills and production are worth, I'm not sure why the emphasized portion would be problematic for Yan.
Given the nature of the game where injury-even serious injury-is a high probability, I would think he would want as much of his money up front as possible, considering guaranteed cntracts are the overwhelming exception rather than the rule.
I would agree with you here. I'm just spitballing with the rumors of "short deal" and how the team usually structures...
Surely they wouldn't lowball Yan with 3 year 60 mil with only 40 gtd or something?
I'm also not privy to the thought process of the Jaguars in this matter, but I can't help but think (perhaps naively) the cap hit from the Bortles deal is impacting whatever the team is offering.
Does anyone know whether the Jaguars have recouped the cap space for Telvin's hiatus?
.gif "Laughing")