Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Why does everyone hates Oesher?

When your readers get the vibe that you're dodging hard questions or being a blatant yes man, then you're not being a very good yes man.

The bottom line is fans are just fans, our feelings and what we feel is wrong with the culture of this team don't mean a hill of beans in the big picture.


With that being said though, there are a system of checks and balances in the NFL that bring teams to greatness. I see (in my opinion as a fan) a continuing culture that seems to breed complacency and lack of urgency in overcoming mistakes.


In the NFL we see what happens with mediocrity...........how many coaches this year have been removed who have greater win records than us? How many teams have lost their star quarterback or like Houston who has lost several but still manage to maintain winning. Heads are rolling for those teams who have shown greater promise. I thought Tampa Bay did well considering a new quarterback, but bam..........Lovie is gone. Coughlin is gone after not producing, but bottom line that team has two Super Bowl wins under him, there are ups and downs like San Fran................but the Jags can't seem to get out of the cellar even one year.


In the last three years this organization has been built on the attitude that hopefully things will get better. Look around the NFL today the lack of ability to win games brings swift changes to these teams. Owners want winning teams.


It is hard to believe Kahn has fired several coaches on his soccer team but continues support our coaching staff and direction of this team. How many franchise quarterbacks are we going to go through? This one needs protection and a defense that can keep him from trying to dig himself out of that weekly hole.


Again we are just frustrated fans, but one look around the NFL this morning and heads are rolling on teams with better records than ours. Where is our winning culture?


My two cents......Gus better bring it all or nothing next year because if he is removed it is just going to delay this team from moving forward as the next coach in all likely hood will want to rebuild to achieve his playing system.........FACT!

I'm really worn out on this subject because it is a topic that comes up in some coaching forums and discussions that I'm a part of on a regular basis but I will just state this and leave it be; I don't understand the connection that is assumed between firing coaches and a winning culture. That makes no sense to me. From my perspective and experience, a winning culture is not one who doesn't tolerate failures, but rather doesn't allow them to survive. Failure is important because no matter who you are ('07 Patriots anyone?) it is going to exist so you had better learn how to deal with it.

Quote:I'm really worn out on this subject because it is a topic that comes up in some coaching forums and discussions that I'm a part of on a regular basis but I will just state this and leave it be; I don't understand the connection that is assumed between firing coaches and a winning culture. That makes no sense to me. From my perspective and experience, a winning culture is not one who doesn't tolerate failures, but rather doesn't allow them to survive. Failure is important because no matter who you are ('07 Patriots anyone?) it is going to exist so you had better learn how to deal with it.

 

There's a difference between failing and being bad.

Quote:No one handed him his billions FWIW.  It's not the fact that he has money that warrants some level of respect, it's the fact that he's self made and earned the bulk of it in business.  You're a pretty funny guy on here most of the time, but you explaining what "business 101" is in contrast to what Khan has done/is doing is a doozy.

No truly successful person is ever wholly 'self made'. I guarantee Khan had lots and lots of help along the way to reach his level of success in the business world. All those employees who've worked for him helped put him where he is. That being said, he is the one who made the decisions that put him where he is. Nevertheless, a high degree of success in one field does not guarantee success in another; to wit... just because Khan was successful in the automotive aftermarket business doesn't mean he will be good as a NFL team owner. He has made some people happy with the current upgrades to the stadium (not to mention the planed developments). However, this was supposed to be about the football... not the 'game day experience'. In this, Khan has put the proverbial 'cart before the horse'.

 

Nevertheless it is what it is; it's his money and his team. Too bad the fans have no real control over the decisions made... beyond either buying tickets or not. I have not personally attended a Jags game in person in years now. This is professional football, not my high school or college alma mater; I buy tickets to see the pros because of the quality of what is done on the field; and what the Jags have been putting on the field now for years isn't worth the price of the cheapest tickets in the NFL as far as I'm concerned. In fact, they often aren't even worth watching on the television for a whole game.

 

My feeling about this team can be summarized this way; I appreciate the facility upgrades, but like when I go to the movies, I go to see a movie I want to watch, not because of the neat-o movie theater. I hope the Jags start turning in a winning season record.

Quote:The bottom line is fans are just fans, our feelings and what we feel is wrong with the culture of this team don't mean a hill of beans in the big picture.


With that being said though, there are a system of checks and balances in the NFL that bring teams to greatness. I see (in my opinion as a fan) a continuing culture that seems to breed complacency and lack of urgency in overcoming mistakes.


In the NFL we see what happens with mediocrity...........how many coaches this year have been removed who have greater win records than us? How many teams have lost their star quarterback or like Houston who has lost several but still manage to maintain winning. Heads are rolling for those teams who have shown greater promise. I thought Tampa Bay did well considering a new quarterback, but bam..........Lovie is gone. Coughlin is gone after not producing, but bottom line that team has two Super Bowl wins under him, there are ups and downs like San Fran................but the Jags can't seem to get out of the cellar even one year.


In the last three years this organization has been built on the attitude that hopefully things will get better. Look around the NFL today the lack of ability to win games brings swift changes to these teams. Owners want winning teams.

It is hard to believe Kahn has fired several coaches on his soccer team but continues support our coaching staff and direction of this team
. How many franchise quarterbacks are we going to go through? This one needs protection and a defense that can keep him from trying to dig himself out of that weekly hole.


Again we are just frustrated fans, but one look around the NFL this morning and heads are rolling on teams with better records than ours. Where is our winning culture?


My two cents......Gus better bring it all or nothing next year because if he is removed it is just going to delay this team from moving forward as the next coach in all likely hood will want to rebuild to achieve his playing system.........FACT!

 

I think this is a revealing fact. If Khan ran his futbol operations the same way, meaning keeping the coach (or whatever they call it in soccer) with a losing record, then perhaps we should be a little more concerned with him as an owner. But, the fact is he has no issues removing someone who he feels isn't the best person for the job.

 

Why do you think he's done it differently this time? Perhaps the words that came out of Dave's mouth the other day were correct? The losses racked up in years 1 and 2 were not simply and solely due to poor coaching, but rather, poor personnel, lack of talent and a tremendous amount of youth.

 

Maybe Khan agrees so he's willing to give it one more year to see the process through? If wins don't start happening in 2016 he'll move on. 

Quote:I'm really worn out on this subject because it is a topic that comes up in some coaching forums and discussions that I'm a part of on a regular basis but I will just state this and leave it be; I don't understand the connection that is assumed between firing coaches and a winning culture. That makes no sense to me. From my perspective and experience, a winning culture is not one who doesn't tolerate failures, but rather doesn't allow them to survive. Failure is important because no matter who you are ('07 Patriots anyone?) it is going to exist so you had better learn how to deal with it.

.


With anything on life you learn as you go and as you move on you learn from your mistakes in order to perfect what you are trying to accomplish. Winning is a necessity in the NFL and if this takes constantly tweaking your staff and players in order to breed success then firings and horings are part of that process.

@Deacon the teams culture isn't discussed much. Its more I hate Gus or Caldwell etc etc 

Quote:@Deacon the teams culture isn't discussed much. Its more I hate Gus or Caldwell etc etc 

 

Oh, I don't necessarily mean this forum exclusively. I participate in a few other discussions when it comes to the culture of an organization and the development of such and I'm just tired of it at this point. Then again, the whole "I need to see people fired to make me feel better because I'm not in charge of my own happiness" line has worn out it's welcome just as well.

Quote:Oh, I don't necessarily mean this forum exclusively. I participate in a few other discussions when it comes to the culture of an organization and the development of such and I'm just tired of it at this point. Then again, the whole "I need to see people fired to make me feel better because I'm not in charge of my own happiness" line has worn out it's welcome just as well.

 

Amen.

Quote:I'm really worn out on this subject because it is a topic that comes up in some coaching forums and discussions that I'm a part of on a regular basis but I will just state this and leave it be; I don't understand the connection that is assumed between firing coaches and a winning culture. That makes no sense to me. From my perspective and experience, a winning culture is not one who doesn't tolerate failures, but rather doesn't allow them to survive. Failure is important because no matter who you are ('07 Patriots anyone?) it is going to exist so you had better learn how to deal with it.

I can understand that a lot of these subjects can get boring after a while, but let me ask a question (open to anyone)--


When you say that a winning culture is one that does not allow failure to survive, do you think that this idea of "completing" and "getting better" cultivates the survival of failure?


Also, what does a team culture hell bent on making sure failure (when it does occur) is quickly addressed and stamped out?

Quote:I can understand that a lot of these subjects can get boring after a while, but let me ask a question (open to anyone)--


When you say that a winning culture is one that does not allow failure to survive, do you think that this idea of "completing" and "getting better" cultivates the survival of failure?


Also, what does a team culture hell bent on making sure failure (when it does occur) is quickly addressed and stamped out?

We're not seeing what happens in the locker room or in meetings or one on one conversations though either.

Quote:We're not seeing what happens in the locker room or in meetings or one on one conversations though either.

True, all we see is what happens on Sunday.


For example, I remember last year, a rb for the patriots had like 200 yards rushing in one game. He got the start the next week. He subsequently fumbled during that game, and was benched...


This year, three weeks in a row we had a center that botched a shot gun snap....


So while we may not know exactly what's happening behind closed doors, I think one can reasonably infer certain things from what we see and hear from Bradley.


Aren't there certain things you think could have been done this season to correct certain failures from continuing to happen?

Well, this is how I see it. We fans are between a rock and a hard place. Fire Gus, and there's no guarantee his replacement will produce wins, any time soon, or at all. The new HC will bring in his guys and a new learning curve starts again for Bortles and company......not good. Or keep Gus and risk yet another 4-12, 5-11 season. I've given this a lot of thought and in my humble opinion, the lesser of two bad choices is to give Gus one final chance in 2016.

But he's officially on double secret probation.

Losing is accepted around here! Poor game play,poor personnel decisions, poor coaching and poor leadership. Its all accepted, we dont have the no [BLEEP] mentality like the Steelers, Patriots, Seahawks etc.. We consistently reward players with playing time and contracts when they dont deserve it.. We reward our coaches with time when they havent earned it! The fans are soo use to losing they come up with excuses for whats going on!! No one expects to win anymore around here and its pathetic! I expect to win! And if we not winning then there has to be change!! Seriously people actually defend Chad Henne! Chad Henne! Smh its sad!

Quote:I can understand that a lot of these subjects can get boring after a while, but let me ask a question (open to anyone)--


When you say that a winning culture is one that does not allow failure to survive, do you think that this idea of "completing" and "getting better" cultivates the survival of failure? (1)



Also, what does a team culture hell bent on making sure failure (when it does occur) is quickly addressed and stamped out? (2)

 

(1) Not at all. What it does is teaches the individuals to acknowledge their failures and address them without a value statement being added. Did you ever see the movie The Edge with Alec Baldwin and Anthony Hopkins? In that movie, there is this interaction:

 

<p style="margin-left:40px;">"...'most people lost in the wilds, they, they die of shame.


<p style="margin-left:40px;"> 

<p style="margin-left:40px;">'What?'


<p style="margin-left:40px;"> 

<p style="margin-left:40px;">'Yeah, see, they die of shame. 'What did I do wrong? How could I have gotten myself into this?' And so they sit there and they... die. Because they didn't do the one thing that would save their lives.


<p style="margin-left:40px;"> 

<p style="margin-left:40px;">'
And what is that?'

<p style="margin-left:40px;"> 

<p style="margin-left:40px;">'
Thinking.'"

 

I would add to that that they are not thinking about how to improve their situation.

 

So let's think of it this way; let's say that you are being encouraged to win. Now, you're a backup Linebacker and you see that the starting LB has trouble getting off of a down block. If you want to "win" that starting LB spot, then all you have to do is get better at getting off the down block than he does and voila! The job is yours. On the flip side, all that the starting LB has to do is to stay better than you and he keeps his job. Also, the coaches will be inclined to look at players who are winning constantly, their focus is not on how a player is progressing but rather on whether or not they are performing up to a standard.

 

Now, change things up and say that you're being encouraged to compete everyday, Players and Coaches alike. And that your competition is not the guy ahead of you, nor the guy behind you but your competition is your last rep. If that's the case, then you are going to be working towards getting the most out of yourself that you can. You are going to be asking yourself "how can I make this next rep better?" You are no longer limited by the people around you, nor are you focusing on past failures and the potential shame minefield that lies there. It's not about "being positive" even though a lot of people view it that way, it's about improving and constantly keeping your focus on what I believe is the most important play, the next one. It keeps your attention on the now.

 

It helps the individuals, players and coaches, remove value judgments from things and lets them view performance as strictly data. It's just something to work off of and not something to dwell on.

 

 

 

(2) It is wrapped up in the first answer. If a culture of competition and improvement is truly installed, then the individuals will stamp it out by themselves. When you lend a critical eye towards what you are doing and how to do it better, failures will occur less and less often. Also, when they do occur they have a much smaller psychological impact. Take the Buffalo game for example; when Bortles threw that INT late in the game, Bradley had already started the process of moving on to the next play. You can see him clapping on the Sideline even before Buffalo kicks their Extra Point. From my perspective, he was not dwelling on the past and the failure, but rather on the opportunity ahead of him and how to make the most of it. i.e. how to get better.

 

By taking the stigma of shame and fear away from failing, you then allow the focus to not be on "don't screw up" to "do it better".

flsprtsgod "Wrong it's Staph.

 

Wrong again... It's Bradleys Disease (nausea and vomiting which are epidemic.)

Quote:Losing is accepted around here! Poor game play,poor personnel decisions, poor coaching and poor leadership. Its all accepted, we dont have the no [BAD WORD REMOVED] mentality like the Steelers, Patriots, Seahawks etc.. We consistently reward players with playing time and contracts when they dont deserve it.. We reward our coaches with time when they havent earned it! The fans are soo use to losing they come up with excuses for whats going on!! No one expects to win anymore around here and its pathetic! I expect to win! And if we not winning then there has to be change!! Seriously people actually defend Chad Henne! Chad Henne! Smh its sad!

 

The fact is, losing is NOT accepted around here.  You're just too much of a whiner to recognize that you can be disappointed with losing without having to act like an idiot and go off on repetitive rants as if that's somehow going to change something.  If a team losing makes you that angry, you need a hobby. 

Quote:We're not seeing what happens in the locker room or in meetings or one on one conversations though either.

Exactly.  People base their entire viewpoint on what they see on camera.  Nobody has a clue what's really happening behind the scenes.

Quote:True, all we see is what happens on Sunday.


For example, I remember last year, a rb for the patriots had like 200 yards rushing in one game. He got the start the next week. He subsequently fumbled during that game, and was benched...

 

And now Jonas Gray plays for us...