Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:Nope. Remember Gabbert would have been the #1 pick if he declared for the draft in 2013. Per Fisch

Lol, Gabbert would not. He is the textbook example as to why you should leave for the draft when your stock is high (usually after Junior year). 2 more years and he would have gone from project with tons of upside, to 'Hmm, this guy isn't really improving, maybe he just isn't good.' When you see QB's like Murray, who actually play good in college mess up and skip the draft only to fall way down, you know who is making the mistake. No chance Gabbert would have kept his hype going, he would have blown it.

Quote:He is the textbook example as to why you should leave for the draft when your stock is high.

 

The Matt Barkley Effect.

Quote: 

As Hurrricane so aptly points out, if the Jags are NOT purposely playing this poorly, then what does that say about Caldwell / Bradley?

 

What did it say about Jimmy Johnson when he went 1-15 his first year?

Quote:Well, seeing as you threw the first insult at me. You don't have much to talk about do you?

 

I threw the first insult at you by saying "Not sacrificing the future for meaningless wins today = TANKING" ?

 

Or was it when I said "I didn't think it's that difficult. Apparently, for you it is." as a response to you telling me that "You obviously have a different idea of 'tanking'?

 

So who fired the first shot? And by the way, you STILL haven't explained how you define tanking.

Quote:What did it say about Jimmy Johnson when he went 1-15 his first year?

Jimmy's GM did this ......

 

The trade Minnesota Vikings received

• RB Herschel Walker
  
• Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1990 (54) (Mike Jones)
  
• San Diego's 5th round pick - 1990 (116) (Reggie Thornton)
  
• Dallas's 10th round pick - 1990 (249) (Pat Newman)
  
• Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1991 (68) (Jake Reed)
  

Dallas Cowboys received

• LB Jesse Solomon
  
• LB David Howard
  
• CB Issiac Holt
  
• RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
  
• DE Alex Stewart
  
• Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
  
• Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
  
• Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
  
• Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
  
• Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (38) (Dixon Edwards)
  
• Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
  
• Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
  
• Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) - (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)^[1]
  

Quote:If I'm Caldwell, you better believe I'm going to say I'm tanking.


It would be pretty embarrassing to actually think he was trying to put a winning team on the field.

Lol. To be fair, he said this year wasn't about wins and losses. This year wasn't about short term results. Only time will tell if it is the right approach.

Quote:I threw the first insult at you by saying "Not sacrificing the future for meaningless wins today = TANKING" ?


Or was it when I said "
I didn't think it's that difficult. Apparently, for you it is." as a response to you telling me that "
You obviously have a different idea of 'tanking'?


So who fired the first shot? And by the way, you STILL haven't explained how you define tanking.

Wow, if you're calling my first statement 'an insult', why should I explain anything to you?


And you are correct, the first insult was cast by you in response to that.


tanking = TRYING to lose


Happy now?


Sorry, was that an insult?

I'm all for tanking right now...


Draft Teddy Bridgewater and then surround him with 10 other draft selections, a few free agents, improving WRs and secondary and lets roll!


I believe in Caldwell, he's a smart dude. I love his confidence!

Quote:Lol. To be fair, he said this year wasn't about wins and losses. This year wasn't about short term results. Only time will tell if it is the right approach.

 

I agree.  I think the plan was to clear salaries, don't invest in quick fixes, and find out 1st hand whether Gabbert was the future or not.  Even if they were 85% convinced prior to the season, I think they can now move foward with drafting a QB, sign some free agents for the long term fix, and be competitive next season.

 

I don't think anyone ever thought we'd be losing by an average of 20 points per game.  I think they thought we'd be in most games but come out on the losing end 75% of the time.

GAME 16 scares the heck out of me.

 

Indy may have clinched the division by then and solified a #2, #3, or #4 seed.  They could kill our #1 draft status.

Quote:GAME 16 scares the heck out of me.

Indy may have clinched the division by then and solified a #2, #3, or #4 seed. They could kill our #1 draft status.

I'm not too worried.. Matt Hasselback will still beat us

Quote:What did it say about Jimmy Johnson when he went 1-15 his first year?

 

He traded his best player for a boatload of high draft picks, including 3 1sts and 3 2nds. Where is Caldwell's pile of top draft picks?


 

Oh, and the Cowboys did win a game, and were at least competitive in some of their other games that year.


 

I'd hardly think that Caldwell comes in even a distant 2nd in that comparison.

Quote:Actually this is easy to answer.

 

Gene Smith gave a lot of average to below average players huge paydays - Poz, Mincey, Lewis, Henne, Laurent Robinson,  etc.  Caldwell comes in and sees the completely talentless roster and realizes the first thing to do is start clearing the books of the dead money and allow the injury-prone, underperforming players like Cox/Knighton/Smith leave in FA and only sign a few young players to 1 year deals. 

 

If you think this is a one year turnaround and that if we draft a franchise QB next year that we're going to be in the same position as the Colts when they drafted Luck, you're sadly mistaken.  This entire roster is being overhauled and you'll see more players cut.  Henne, Gabbert, MJD, Lewis, Meester, Mincey etc. are all going to be gone.  Huge dead money hits on the salary cap so we aren't just going to spend a fortune next year either.

 

This will be a multi-year rebuild through the draft.  They'll likely extend a few players like Marks and Blackmon, pick up a few cheap free agents, but we're not going to go from being an 0-16 team to a playoff contender in 2014.  A more realistic expectation is 4-12 to 6-10.

 

It's about doing it right this time...

 

Is this 'doing it right'? So far it follows the Gene Smith model. When Gene Smith first took over, he cut a lot of overpriced players, and didn't sign any notible free agents his first year, just like Caldwell has done so far. You're assuming that Caldwell is different because he won't be giving out huge paydays to below average players down the road. But we don't know that.


 

Gutting the roster is easy. Getting good replacements is hard. Caldwell has only done part 1. While the draft picks may eventually pan out, so far they are still works in progress. To put this into context, Eben Britton had more positive evaluations by this point in 2009 than any of our current crop of rookies. Other than Will Blackmon and Marks, I see no replacements who are even close to what I'd call good, and they are just guys.


 

I still ask the question, did Caldwell have to gut the roster to such an extent that the Jags are now reasonably being called The Worst Team in NFL History?

Quote: 

Gutting the roster is easy. Getting good replacements is hard. 

So you are just writing off Will Blackmon, SenDerrick Marks and Alan Ball as not good?  They've all played at or above their salaries.  

 

You are also content to say that Joeckel, Cyprien and Gratz aren't going to be good players?   Dude, if all six of those guys stick on the roster and contribute average or better performances next year - then this past offseason was easily more successful than any of Gene's.  

 

Caldwell gutted the roster so it could be rebuilt with he and Bradley's design.  Khan on the gutting:

Quote:“But we know the process we started, which is pretty much starting from the ground up, cleaning house and doing something … we probably should have started earlier.”
 

Quote:If Oakland had Henne & Gabbert as QB they'd be an identical 0-7. 

 

Pryor makes all the difference, there. 

 

Pryor is that much better than Henne? Coaching and play calling has no effect on the difference in QB play? And Caldwell couldn't find some QB off the street who was as good as Pryor?


 

Sorry, I don't buy it that Pryor vs. Henne explains the difference between a competitive team with two wins vs. THE WORST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY.


 

Oakland filled their roster with scrubs off the street. The Jags filled their roster with scrubs off the street. Either the Oakland GM is better at evaluating talent, or the Oakland coaching staff is better than the Jags coaching staff.  ... Or both.


 

And don't even try to claim that Oakland is a more desirable place to play, with a dilapidated baseball stadium and a huge state income tax.

Quote:So you are just writing off Will Blackmon, SenDerrick Marks and Alan Ball as not good?  They've all played at or above their salaries.  

 

You are also content to say that Joeckel, Cyprien and Gratz aren't going to be good players?   Dude, if all six of those guys stick on the roster and contribute average or better performances next year - then this past offseason was easily more successful than any of Gene's.  

 

Caldwell gutted the roster so it could be rebuilt with he and Bradley's design.  Khan on the gutting:

 

A roster of journeymen playing at or above a veteran minimum salary. That's the dream.


 

I'm not saying that Joeckel, Cyprien, and Gratz aren't going to be good players. But so far Joeckel and Gratz are injured, and Cyprien has been a liability. Those who claim that Caldwell 'is doing it the right way' can not base their claim by the play of the draft picks. We have no idea yet whether any of them will ever be any good.


 

If all six stick and contribute average or better performances next year? I'd say that of Monroe, Cox, Knighton, Thomas, and Morrison in 2010 from Gene's first year, and Britton before he was injured. Between Gene and Caldwell so far, THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE except Gene's draft picks looked better as rookies. And your premise assumes the best case to begin with, chances are that two of your six will be injured and one will bust out. 
Are you purposely setting up these replies to help me make my point?

 

I understand rebuilding. Even in year 1 I expect at least a few players who show something special. Do you really believe Will Blackmon, Marks, and Ball are long-term fixtures in a rebuild? it's possible that a journeymen finds a system that fits his style of play so well that he magically becomes a solid starter for several years, but the odds are long against it.

Quote:Pryor is that much better than Henne? Coaching and play calling has no effect on the difference in QB play? And Caldwell couldn't find some QB off the street who was as good as Pryor?


 

Sorry, I don't buy it that Pryor vs. Henne explains the difference between a competitive team with two wins vs. THE WORST TEAM IN NFL HISTORY.


 

Oakland filled their roster with scrubs off the street. The Jags filled their roster with scrubs off the street. Either the Oakland GM is better at evaluating talent, or the Oakland coaching staff is better than the Jags coaching staff.  ... Or both.


 

And don't even try to claim that Oakland is a more desirable place to play, with a dilapidated baseball stadium and a huge state income tax.

 

I believe that Pryor indeed is a LOT better than Henne. 

 

People are underrating Pryor. I think Oakland finally has a QB they can legitimately build around. 

Quote:And your premise assumes the best case to begin with, 

 1. Kirk Morrison doesn't help your argument. 

 

2. My permise assumes the "best case"?  Are you kidding?  Caldwell has brought in dozens of players.  Not six. Best case scenario would involve many more of them becoming contributors and/or quality depth. 

 

I hate that the team isn't competitive right now too.  And, sure,  it may turn out that Caldwell and company are to blame. I'll be the first to say "Malabar called it."  

I just don't see it pointing that way yet. I just see the painful early stages of a massive rebuild.