(05-13-2020, 12:24 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 10:38 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Can someone show where there is evidence that items were previously stolen from the house? This whole "pawn shop ticket as evidence" thing is based on something being stolen, but every report I've seen says that nothing was ever stolen from that house.
Is there even a pawn shop ticket, or is that just being thrown around here as a hypothetical? I haven't seen it reported, just speculated on by people trying to find a way to make the shooting not a criminal offense.
The one FACT we have is the report from the police that there was one reported theft between January 1 and Feb 23. Everything else is people throwing stuff at the wall to confuse the issue of the criminality of vigilante murder.
(05-13-2020, 12:57 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 12:24 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Is there even a pawn shop ticket, or is that just being thrown around here as a hypothetical? I haven't seen it reported, just speculated on by people trying to find a way to make the shooting not a criminal offense.
The one FACT we have is the report from the police that there was one reported theft between January 1 and Feb 23. Everything else is people throwing stuff at the wall to confuse the issue of the criminality of vigilante murder.
I’m not sure this has even been talked about but why was he wearing basketball shoes?!
(05-13-2020, 02:11 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 12:57 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The one FACT we have is the report from the police that there was one reported theft between January 1 and Feb 23. Everything else is people throwing stuff at the wall to confuse the issue of the criminality of vigilante murder.
I’m not sure this has even been talked about but why was he wearing basketball shoes?!
Because only felons wear basketball shoes. It's how the McYeehaws knew he was committing a felony. Everyone knows that if you're wearing basketball shoes, you must have committed a felony.
(05-13-2020, 02:20 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 02:11 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I’m not sure this has even been talked about but why was he wearing basketball shoes?!
Because only felons wear basketball shoes. It's how the McYeehaws knew he was committing a felony. Everyone knows that if you're wearing basketball shoes, you must have committed a felony.
Let's stop with the racist references shall we?
(05-13-2020, 02:40 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 02:20 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Because only felons wear basketball shoes. It's how the McYeehaws knew he was committing a felony. Everyone knows that if you're wearing basketball shoes, you must have committed a felony.
Let's stop with the racist references shall we?
That's not racist, it's bigoted, or more specificly prejudiced.
(05-13-2020, 04:16 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 03:10 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]That's not racist, it's bigoted, or more specificly prejudiced.
I stand corrected.
So I can keep on demeaning those who have earned it?
(05-13-2020, 04:26 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 04:16 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]I stand corrected.
So I can keep on demeaning those who have earned it?
As long as it's not based on your personal belief in the inherent superiority of one race above another.
(05-13-2020, 02:11 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 12:57 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The one FACT we have is the report from the police that there was one reported theft between January 1 and Feb 23. Everything else is people throwing stuff at the wall to confuse the issue of the criminality of vigilante murder.
I’m not sure this has even been talked about but why was he wearing basketball shoes?!
Apparently, because he didn't want to be barefoot during a home invasion. Tetanus is a [BLEEP]...
(05-13-2020, 02:20 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 02:11 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I’m not sure this has even been talked about but why was he wearing basketball shoes?!
Because only felons wear basketball shoes. It's how the McYeehaws knew he was committing a felony. Everyone knows that if you're wearing basketball shoes, you must have committed a felony.
It's no longer hoodies?
(05-13-2020, 10:43 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 10:28 AM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Round and Round...
Yes, it's pretty much going to be until there's a verdict. But at least we'll get an investigation and trial now, unlike the last few months when this was swept under the rug.
Sure thing there Inspector Clouseau.
(05-13-2020, 12:27 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]The problem with the 24/7 news cycle, the media wanting to get the story RIGHT NOW, social media, etc., is stories are "breaking" in haste without any facts other than "XYZ happened" and the opinions starts flying. Fingers are pointed, emotions are high, divisions are caused, panic is induced, and for what? How many times are stories backtracked because of conjecture?
This happens with cases like this, it's happening daily with Covid as well as other stories. I don't care who "breaks the story" I care that who reports it actually gets it right to the best of their ability with actual fact finding. Sadly that won't happen because we're in the day and age of "who is first, wins" which means money is made, rather than "who is right, wins."
You haven't heard...Cleatwood and FSG already solved the case. The rednecks ran down the jogger and then shot him because he was out jogging while black.
(05-13-2020, 04:26 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 04:16 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]I stand corrected.
So I can keep on demeaning those who have earned it?
No you can't. Bigotry is not allowed. It's neither clever nor funny and it diminishes any "contribution" that your remarks might add to the discussion. It has already been pointed out to you publicly in this very thread that your "clever to you" remarks does not add to the discussion. I have also received PMs regarding this.
Disagree with somebody? Fine. Have a differing opinion? Fine. Insult perhaps a segment of our users with your bigoted/prejudiced stereotype? Not fine. Consider this a public soft warning that goes not only to you, but perhaps others.
In this specific discussion I have had disagreements with others (Gabe, flasportsgod, etc.) and we have argued our points of view without degrading a certain segment of people. Let's try to keep the conversation as such.
That's all I am going to say about it publicly.
(05-13-2020, 05:39 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 12:27 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]The problem with the 24/7 news cycle, the media wanting to get the story RIGHT NOW, social media, etc., is stories are "breaking" in haste without any facts other than "XYZ happened" and the opinions starts flying. Fingers are pointed, emotions are high, divisions are caused, panic is induced, and for what? How many times are stories backtracked because of conjecture?
This happens with cases like this, it's happening daily with Covid as well as other stories. I don't care who "breaks the story" I care that who reports it actually gets it right to the best of their ability with actual fact finding. Sadly that won't happen because we're in the day and age of "who is first, wins" which means money is made, rather than "who is right, wins."
You haven't heard...Cleatwood and FSG already solved the case. The rednecks ran down the jogger and then shot him because he was out jogging while black.
Actually, I don’t care what he was doing prior to being murdered. He could have lit that house on fire and it still didn’t warrant two idiots chasing him down and pulling a shotgun on him.
And if you really think that’s FSG position, then you have reading comprehension issues my dude.
I'm cool with that. That's a fair position. However, the media deserves blame for framing it like that from the beginning. It starts a false narrative. We should never be arguing about basketball shoes or jogging routes. The video, on it's own, is hard to watch. Most people look at it and instantly question the virtues of vigilante justice. It is enough for society to put pressure to change an arguably antiquated law. I think these dudes are going to get off with less of a punishment than the public will want, but the fault is with the laws. Maybe it can be handled in a civil case. The race narrative has no legs at this point. If it comes to light, then it's worthy of a public discussion, but you wouldn't find even the most ardent supporters of the "McYeehaws" defending them if that is the case.
It's a great burglary. Can take lots of copper pipe on foot!
(05-13-2020, 12:01 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 11:40 AM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ]There were reports, but you are correct we haven't seen any documented evidence. There was supposedly a broken water pipe issue, multiple other videos, something about fishing equipment ~$1,000, but if there is no documentation by police then it is not a pattern other than him showing up on camera. Even the 2/11 incident should be listed as they called 911.
From the reports they say they have reported these to the cops, other than the fishing equipment, so there should be some paper trail. For some reason no one has leaked them or gotten that info.
The 2/11 incident was a non-emergency call not 911 according to the AJC and the property owner.
It's crazy how wrong the media continues to be. The call was to 911, there is a recording, there is a police report, and there were at least 4 neighbors out looking for him after he ran off. It was also reported a gun was stolen from McMichael's trunk in Jan. on the 911 call.
https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/just...n16B4GT7I/
I beginning to wonder if there were any mental issues going on. To be chased off multiple times from the home and yet still return are not actions from a sane person.
(05-13-2020, 09:04 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 12:01 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The 2/11 incident was a non-emergency call not 911 according to the AJC and the property owner.
It's crazy how wrong the media continues to be. The call was to 911, there is a recording, there is a police report, and there were at least 4 neighbors out looking for him after he ran off. It was also reported a gun was stolen from McMichael's trunk in Jan. on the 911 call.
https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/just...n16B4GT7I/
I beginning to wonder if there were any mental issues going on. To be chased off multiple times from the home and yet still return are not actions from a sane person.
Not only to not return, but to never make contact or say hello to one of the neighbors. "Hey, hows it going. Do you know the owner, where did he get the crown molding," etc. That's the kind of thing that natuarally happens when you have people that walk through a renovation or site under construction. They aren't looking around making sure no one is there and then running off any time they are discovered.
(05-13-2020, 09:44 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 09:26 AM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree. I think that given the Way GA defines Burglary as "entering a dwelling with the intent to steal" then the act of him looking to make sure that there was no one around and then fleeing the scene would constitute evidence of intent to steal which in GA is a felony 1. Also, McMichael reported that he personally had something stolen from his truck and he was involved in a previous incident with Arbery at that same residence and there is video evidence of someone matching his description entering the house on multiple occasions.
Again, I think that we morally agree they acted stupidly. I don't like the GA law as written. But I think that given the fact pattern, it's going to be hard to prove criminal liability beyond a reasonable doubt. IF they positively identify Arbery as the guy on the previous videos/find a pawn-scrap ticket for copper piping, tools, the missing gun etc. then this case should be abandoned and thrown out. Now as far as civil liability, i think that's a different story. Public opinion is going to go a lot longer way in that arena than arguing suspected felony intent to steal vs. simple trespassing in a citizens arrest defense. This guy has a pension, he has assets, now they belong to the family. Get him to plead to a lesser crime with little to no jail time to avoid a trial, rewrite the law to exclude petty property crimes from citizens arrest and only allow citizens to follow the suspect for the officials.
Hannah Payne personally witnessed the incident for which she killed her man giving her a significantly more acceptable reason for her actions, so the verdict in that one will foreshadow this one since the reasoning of the McMichaels doesn't reach the same standard. I don't think this will be a tough case for the jury and those guys are going to jail for a long time.
I can understand where you're coming from, but there are actually a few significant differences between the two incidents.
In the case of Hannah Payne
a.) there was another party on site with law enforcement/investigative background (a corrections officer) That person determined that the victim (suspected drunk driver) was actually undergoing medical distress (potentially diabetic shock.) In that case it wasn't just up to a civilians reasonable suspicion, a trained professional determined that the person lacked the capacity and agency to be criminally culpable for his actions.
b.)she was on the phone with dispatch for several minutes, including during her pursuit of the suspect. At multiple times, over and over the dispatcher told her not to pursue and not to engage the suspect. She said specifically that it was too dangerous to engage in what potentially amounts to a full on high speed chase. Even after she cornered the guy and cut off his means of escape the dispatcher told her clearly not to approach the car and not to engage the suspect.
c.) When she did engage the car with her gun drawn she reached in and just started pummeling the guy. Several witnesses testified that the guy wasn't even able to defend himself, let alone present himself as a threat to the young lady.
In the case of Arbery, McMichael was the one with an investigative background and he determined that there was reason to suspect Arbery. During the 2-23 911 call i don't believe there were those kind of instructions from dispatch. And from the video, while the McMichaels were armed, there was a path to the driverside of the vehicle that Arbery was already jogging on. He ran AROUND THE VEHICLE and allegedly initiated contact with Travis McMichael. So there are a couple points of fact that are different.
Now, to your point, there is case law that demonstrates that even while making a citizens arrest, if the citizen attempting to make the arrest uses undo force or initiates a physical confrontation then that doesn't give them license to escalate the level of violence or use deadly force. For instance, if i am armed with a bat and attempt to make a citizens arrest, if you don't attack me and i just start arbitrarily bashing your brains in then that's still assault/murder. So if the state can demonstrate that Travis McMichael just got out of his truck and tried to beat the kid up or shoot him then that would invalidate both citizens arrest and stand your ground. I don't think that's what the evidence shows, but that would be a legal counterargument.
(05-13-2020, 05:39 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 04:26 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]So I can keep on demeaning those who have earned it?
No you can't. Bigotry is not allowed. It's neither clever nor funny and it diminishes any "contribution" that your remarks might add to the discussion. It has already been pointed out to you publicly in this very thread that your "clever to you" remarks does not add to the discussion. I have also received PMs regarding this.
Disagree with somebody? Fine. Have a differing opinion? Fine. Insult perhaps a segment of our users with your bigoted/prejudiced stereotype? Not fine. Consider this a public soft warning that goes not only to you, but perhaps others.
In this specific discussion I have had disagreements with others (Gabe, flasportsgod, etc.) and we have argued our points of view without degrading a certain segment of people. Let's try to keep the conversation as such.
That's all I am going to say about it publicly.
I know when it's worth the effort, and I know when it's not. Those of you who want to go on finding ways that maybe the killers somehow did nothing criminal, despite video of them doing something extremely criminal, cool. Keep on hiding behind your "show me evidence" shtick when the evidence is all right there.
And while you're at it, those of you who might have voiced the opinion that my referring to people totally unrelated to you as "hicks" is personally offensive to you, why is it that using that word is somehow awful when I'm sure some of you are among the same crowd that thinks it's ridiculous for Native Americans to want an actual racial slur taken off of the Washington football team?
But that's neither here nor there. Ahmaud Arbery was murdered by two fine, upstanding citizens who saw a black man running down the street with, as far as their 911 calls indicated, no evidence of anything more than him being a black man running down the street,
maybe after committing a misdemeanor depending on what you consider reasonable suspicion to be, but that's irrelevant anyway because Georgia law requires a felony and B&E isn't one. If it's a white man running down the street under the same circumstances, do the fine, upstanding citizens who would go on to barricade the road with shotguns even notice? And if they notice, do they care?
Oh, wait, of course they do. The white guy would have been wearing basketball shoes.
(05-14-2020, 10:07 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 05:39 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]No you can't. Bigotry is not allowed. It's neither clever nor funny and it diminishes any "contribution" that your remarks might add to the discussion. It has already been pointed out to you publicly in this very thread that your "clever to you" remarks does not add to the discussion. I have also received PMs regarding this.
Disagree with somebody? Fine. Have a differing opinion? Fine. Insult perhaps a segment of our users with your bigoted/prejudiced stereotype? Not fine. Consider this a public soft warning that goes not only to you, but perhaps others.
In this specific discussion I have had disagreements with others (Gabe, flasportsgod, etc.) and we have argued our points of view without degrading a certain segment of people. Let's try to keep the conversation as such.
That's all I am going to say about it publicly.
I know when it's worth the effort, and I know when it's not. Those of you who want to go on finding ways that maybe the killers somehow did nothing criminal, despite video of them doing something extremely criminal, cool. Keep on hiding behind your "show me evidence" shtick when the evidence is all right there.
And while you're at it, those of you who might have voiced the opinion that my referring to people totally unrelated to you as "hicks" is personally offensive to you, why is it that using that word is somehow awful when I'm sure some of you are among the same crowd that thinks it's ridiculous for Native Americans to want an actual racial slur taken off of the Washington football team?
But that's neither here nor there. Ahmaud Arbery was murdered by two fine, upstanding citizens who saw a black man running down the street with, as far as their 911 calls indicated, no evidence of anything more than him being a black man running down the street, maybe after committing a misdemeanor depending on what you consider reasonable suspicion to be, but that's irrelevant anyway because Georgia law requires a felony and B&E isn't one. If it's a white man running down the street under the same circumstances, do the fine, upstanding citizens who would go on to barricade the road with shotguns even notice? And if they notice, do they care?
Oh, wait, of course they do. The white guy would have been wearing basketball shoes.
This is low. I dont know if you're lying or if your just being willfully ignorant. U know why Travs Mcmichael only articulated the physical description? Because he was cut off in a live pursuit. He starts yelling @ Aubrey.
The "jogger narrative" was brilliant. It framed the debate in the minds of some around racial profiling that didnt happen vs. Interpreting the relevant statutes on the books.
Oh and by the way. Some 90% of native americans dont care about the name. But thank you oh white savior for blessing those of us too stupid to advocate for ourselves with your kind concerns...
#realracism
(05-13-2020, 09:04 PM)p_rushing Wrote: [ -> ] (05-13-2020, 12:01 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The 2/11 incident was a non-emergency call not 911 according to the AJC and the property owner.
It's crazy how wrong the media continues to be. The call was to 911, there is a recording, there is a police report, and there were at least 4 neighbors out looking for him after he ran off. It was also reported a gun was stolen from McMichael's trunk in Jan. on the 911 call.
https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/just...n16B4GT7I/
I beginning to wonder if there were any mental issues going on. To be chased off multiple times from the home and yet still return are not actions from a sane person.
Ah, I see the discrepancy. The home owner called the non-emergency number, Jethro called 911.