(05-11-2020, 02:31 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:25 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Open carry laws are a red herring to this discussion. By their own admission, the shooters were attempting a citizen's arrest, and they did not have enough knowledge of the man they were chasing. Even if they had seen him trespassing on a construction site. Unless they saw him take something valuable, that they knew he had no claim to, they did not witness a felony, so they could not legally attempt a citizen's arrest.
Evidence that has been released has proven otherwise. The elder McMichael recognized him and was involved in prosecuting a case against him of a felony firearms violation that he committed.
Well that could change things, maybe. Got a link?
(05-11-2020, 02:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:31 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Evidence that has been released has proven otherwise. The elder McMichael recognized him and was involved in prosecuting a case against him of a felony firearms violation that he committed.
Well that could change things, maybe. Got a link?
Well, we know McMichael was known to the DA who shut down their arrests at the time of the crime, even though the cops on the scene found probable cause.
Glynn County DA Blocked Arrests
But hey, you guys keep on with your "objectivity."
(05-11-2020, 02:33 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:26 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]So because the guy was openly holding a shotgun that makes the intent to kill clear? Based on what they knew about Arbery's criminal history did they know without a doubt that he was unarmed? Were they not allowed to arm themselves for their own protection?
Regarding your last question, I encounter people all the time holding weapons and walking towards me. I don't consider that a threat unless the weapon is pointed in my direction. Go back and look at the video again. Was the younger McMichael walking towards him in a threatening manner (pointing the shotgun at him)?
In order for the charge of murder to apply it must be proven with evidence that they armed themselves with the intent to go and shoot the man.
Please, if they cared about their own protection they would've stayed out of it as they should have.
Well I don't know how you feel about your property or the surrounding area, but I and many (pretty much all) in the area where my property is are pretty much armed all the time.
Again, I'm not saying that what they did was right or what happened is justified. I'm simply pointing out that the narrative of him "just being out for a jog" appears to not be true as is the narrative of "two white rednecks run down a black man to kill him".
Was the death tragic? Absolutely. Were both parties at fault? The evidence that I have seen seems to point to "yes". Was it murder? NO. Involuntary manslaughter? A case might be made for that, but in my opinion prosecutors would have a hard time proving it without a reasonable doubt.
(05-11-2020, 02:26 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 01:33 PM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]The intent is clear the second a freaking shotgun is pulled out for absolutely no defensible reason. Was Arbery pointing a gun at anyone? Was he running wild with a machete? Did he have a suicide bomb strapped to his chest? If I were to pull out a shotgun and walk towards you, would you consider that intent to harm you or not?
So because the guy was openly holding a shotgun that makes the intent to kill clear? Based on what they knew about Arbery's criminal history did they know without a doubt that he was unarmed? Were they not allowed to arm themselves for their own protection?
Regarding your last question, I encounter people all the time holding weapons and walking towards me. I don't consider that a threat unless the weapon is pointed in my direction. Go back and look at the video again. Was the younger McMichael walking towards him in a threatening manner (pointing the shotgun at him)?
In order for the charge of murder to apply it must be proven with evidence that they armed themselves with the intent to go and shoot the man.
No one is coming at you with a shotgun out are they? Are you on a secluded road by yourself when these interactions happen?
You’re also not a black man in Georgia being confronted by two white men.
(05-11-2020, 02:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:31 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Evidence that has been released has proven otherwise. The elder McMichael recognized him and was involved in prosecuting a case against him of a felony firearms violation that he committed.
Well that could change things, maybe. Got a link?
I don't have a link at the moment, but I seem to recall it being said in one of the links I provided earlier in this thread. Either the link to the report from the initial responding officer or a story on First Coast News. The elder McMichael did recognize him and was involved with prosecuting a case against him.
(05-11-2020, 02:55 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:26 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]So because the guy was openly holding a shotgun that makes the intent to kill clear? Based on what they knew about Arbery's criminal history did they know without a doubt that he was unarmed? Were they not allowed to arm themselves for their own protection?
Regarding your last question, I encounter people all the time holding weapons and walking towards me. I don't consider that a threat unless the weapon is pointed in my direction. Go back and look at the video again. Was the younger McMichael walking towards him in a threatening manner (pointing the shotgun at him)?
In order for the charge of murder to apply it must be proven with evidence that they armed themselves with the intent to go and shoot the man.
No one is coming at you with a shotgun out are they? Are you on a secluded road by yourself when these interactions happen?
You’re also not a black man in Georgia being confronted by two white men.
People are on roads in my area or sometimes enter my property with all kinds of different weapons all the time. Sometimes it might be shotguns, other times it might be AR-15's. It doesn't matter.
You are right, I am not a black man in Georgia being confronted by two white men, I am a Hispanic of Mexican descent often confronted by white men in North Florida. What's the difference?
EDIT:
To add to that my point is that there is no evidence to suggest that this happened based on race. The media narrative is pushing that, but it isn't the case. There is also no publicly available documented evidence that he (Arbery) was "just out for a jog" though most of the headlines that the MSM put out is along the lines of "the killing of a black jogger".
(05-11-2020, 02:58 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Well that could change things, maybe. Got a link?
I don't have a link at the moment, but I seem to recall it being said in one of the links I provided earlier in this thread. Either the link to the report from the initial responding officer or a story on First Coast News. The elder McMichael did recognize him and was involved with prosecuting a case against him.
Honest question, does prior knowledge of the victim help McMichael in this situation? Optics don't look so good if so.
Arbrey was arrested at age 19 for entering a high school basketball game with a gun tucked in his waistband.
Greg McMichaels was a detective on the case.
Looks like Arbrey's records have been scrubbed? No court, jail or arrest records that I could find in a Georgia state records search.
![[Image: cdpovKm.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/cdpovKm.jpg)
(05-11-2020, 03:05 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:58 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have a link at the moment, but I seem to recall it being said in one of the links I provided earlier in this thread. Either the link to the report from the initial responding officer or a story on First Coast News. The elder McMichael did recognize him and was involved with prosecuting a case against him.
Honest question, does prior knowledge of the victim help McMichael in this situation? Optics don't look so good if so.
Whether he remembered or not, apparently McMichaels investigated a weapons charge (Arbery) for the DA.
(05-11-2020, 03:06 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Well that could change things, maybe. Got a link?
https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/local_...095b3.html
That article pretty much kills your "escalation" argument on Arbery's part, especially with continued armed pursuit and attempts to cut off another unarmed citizen.
(05-11-2020, 03:05 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 02:58 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have a link at the moment, but I seem to recall it being said in one of the links I provided earlier in this thread. Either the link to the report from the initial responding officer or a story on First Coast News. The elder McMichael did recognize him and was involved with prosecuting a case against him.
Honest question, does prior knowledge of the victim help McMichael in this situation? Optics don't look so good if so.
Honest answer (to my knowledge). I don't know that it would necessarily "help" McMichael (either one) but in my opinion it does justify them arming themselves (for their own protection) prior to attempting to detain him.
(05-11-2020, 03:08 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:05 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ]Honest question, does prior knowledge of the victim help McMichael in this situation? Optics don't look so good if so.
Whether he remembered or not, apparently McMichaels investigated a weapons charge (Arbery) for the DA.
The same DA who told the cops not to arrest him even though they had PC? Man, the good ol' boy network is in full force out there in Brunswick.
(05-11-2020, 03:08 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:05 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ]Honest question, does prior knowledge of the victim help McMichael in this situation? Optics don't look so good if so.
Whether he remembered or not, apparently McMichaels investigated a weapons charge (Arbery) for the DA.
That incident was in 2012, and Arbery was sentenced to 5 years probation for that, same article. Unless those proceedings took 3 years, or stuff got tacked on during the probation, that's a closed case. So that's not an excuse to be attempting a citizen's arrest.
(05-11-2020, 03:14 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:08 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Whether he remembered or not, apparently McMichaels investigated a weapons charge (Arbery) for the DA.
The same DA who told the cops not to arrest him even though they had PC? Man, the good ol' boy network is in full force out there in Brunswick.
The ones that recused themselves at the mothers request? Sure. Point?
(05-11-2020, 03:11 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:06 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/local_...095b3.html
That article pretty much kills your "escalation" argument on Arbery's part, especially with continued armed pursuit and attempts to cut off another unarmed citizen.
These two should fry, this is looking more and more like it was intentional.
(05-11-2020, 03:21 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:14 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The same DA who told the cops not to arrest him even though they had PC? Man, the good ol' boy network is in full force out there in Brunswick.
The ones that recused themselves at the mothers request? Sure. Point?
"Hey DA, we got these guys on Murder 2"
"No guys, I know Greg, he would never do that! Let them go."
(05-11-2020, 03:11 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:06 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]https://thebrunswicknews.com/news/local_...095b3.html
That article pretty much kills your "escalation" argument on Arbery's part, especially with continued armed pursuit and attempts to cut off another unarmed citizen.
How so? I still see escalation on both parties.
(05-11-2020, 03:16 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:08 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Whether he remembered or not, apparently McMichaels investigated a weapons charge (Arbery) for the DA.
That incident was in 2012, and Arbery was sentenced to 5 years probation for that, same article. Unless those proceedings took 3 years, or stuff got tacked on during the probation, that's a closed case. So that's not an excuse to be attempting a citizen's arrest.
His past arrest record was never utilized as an excuse for citizen's arrest from what I can tell.
(05-11-2020, 03:21 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:11 PM)Gabe Wrote: [ -> ]That article pretty much kills your "escalation" argument on Arbery's part, especially with continued armed pursuit and attempts to cut off another unarmed citizen.
These two should fry, this is looking more and more like it was intentional.
(05-11-2020, 03:21 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]The ones that recused themselves at the mothers request? Sure. Point?
"Hey DA, we got these guys on Murder 2"
"No guys, I know Greg, he would never do that! Let them go."
And if it turns out there is evidence for intent, then so be it. You appear to be getting unnecessarily frisky with the bare-bones information we all have. Aneurysms are a good thing to try and avoid.
(05-11-2020, 03:14 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (05-11-2020, 03:08 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Whether he remembered or not, apparently McMichaels investigated a weapons charge (Arbery) for the DA.
The same DA who told the cops not to arrest him even though they had PC? Man, the good ol' boy network is in full force out there in Brunswick.
PC to what? What exactly were the local police investigating? Stand your ground when a person is attacked by another believed to be involved in a crime (and past crimes in the area)? Or maybe "two rednecks running down a black man simply "jogging down the street"?
People have made their minds up over this already without looking at the facts of the case based on what is in the media.
I somewhat agree with you that the two McMichael's did the wrong thing, but as I have said before, there is no evidence that I have seen that makes this a racial or "hate crime". I also don't believe that Arbery was "just out for a jog". If I see actual evidence that convinces me otherwise I might change my tune.