(10-07-2020, 09:50 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2020, 09:48 AM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]It could be worse. We could have drafted Haskins...
Which quite a few fans wanted to.
Yes, I looked back at the Board's comments about Haskins before the draft. The majority of people loved him and thought he could become a franchise quarterback. This goes to show how difficult it is to find such a player. In reality, how many truly great quarterbacks are there- the guys who can lead their teams to the playoffs year after year despite having an average supporting cast? In the past 10 years, the guys that come to mind are Brady, Manning, Mahomes, Wilson, Brees and Big Ben. It is quite possible that Burrow and Lamar Jackson will eventually belong on this list. I'm probably leaving someone out, but that's a very small number. Andrew Luck, as good as he was, did not win a Super Bowl.
Minshew will never become great like the players listed above. However, he has the rest of this year to show that he is "good enough" to win consistently as long as he has a good supporting cast. The only quarterback in the next draft worth taking with a top 5 pick right now is Lawrence. That would be a no brainer. Fields may also be worth it, but that remains to be seen depending on his performance this season for Ohio State. As it stands today, I'd rather the Jaguars focus the off-season on strengthening the rest of the team. They are fortunate to likely have 4 draft picks in the top 40 and 5 in the top 70. They will have a ton of cap money to acquire at least 2 additional solid players. Will that be enough to compete for the playoffs next season with Minshew at quarterback? That will depend on the development of guys like Chaisson, Josh Jones, Henderson, Bartch and Davon Hamilton. If these 5 become the players they envisioned when they acquired them, I believe the answer is "yes". Chark, Jack, Shennault, Schobert, both Robinsons, Taylor and Linder have already proven they are good players (Cam has improved this season and hopefully isn't hurt too badly). That would mean there is a nucleus of 13 players prior to the off-season. Focus this off-season on improving the defensive line and secondary, add in a difference making tight end like Pitts or Freirmuth and the future should be bright. If Blake Bortles came one bad call away from leading a team to the Super Bowl, Minshew can also- as long as these other pieces come together.
(10-07-2020, 03:38 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2020, 09:50 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]Which quite a few fans wanted to.
Yes, I looked back at the Board's comments about Haskins before the draft. The majority of people loved him and thought he could become a franchise quarterback. This goes to show how difficult it is to find such a player. In reality, how many truly great quarterbacks are there- the guys who can lead their teams to the playoffs year after year despite having an average supporting cast? In the past 10 years, the guys that come to mind are Brady, Manning, Mahomes, Wilson, Brees and Big Ben. It is quite possible that Burrow and Lamar Jackson will eventually belong on this list. I'm probably leaving someone out, but that's a very small number. Andrew Luck, as good as he was, did not win a Super Bowl.
Minshew will never become great like the players listed above. However, he has the rest of this year to show that he is "good enough" to win consistently as long as he has a good supporting cast. The only quarterback in the next draft worth taking with a top 5 pick right now is Lawrence. That would be a no brainer. Fields may also be worth it, but that remains to be seen depending on his performance this season for Ohio State. As it stands today, I'd rather the Jaguars focus the off-season on strengthening the rest of the team. They are fortunate to likely have 4 draft picks in the top 40 and 5 in the top 70. They will have a ton of cap money to acquire at least 2 additional solid players. Will that be enough to compete for the playoffs next season with Minshew at quarterback? That will depend on the development of guys like Chaisson, Josh Jones, Henderson, Bartch and Davon Hamilton. If these 5 become the players they envisioned when they acquired them, I believe the answer is "yes". Chark, Jack, Shennault, Schobert, both Robinsons, Taylor and Linder have already proven they are good players (Cam has improved this season and hopefully isn't hurt too badly). That would mean there is a nucleus of 13 players prior to the off-season. Focus this off-season on improving the defensive line and secondary, add in a difference making tight end like Pitts or Freirmuth and the future should be bright. If Blake Bortles came one bad call away from leading a team to the Super Bowl, Minshew can also- as long as these other pieces come together.
Mahomes went #10. Watson #12. Lamar Jackson #32. Who cares what the media "experts" think. We need a GM with some guts and vision. Is it hard to project these things? Absolutely it is! But that is why the talent evaluators make the big money. It makes me sick hearing some fans praising Caldwell's picks each year just because they align with Mel Kiper's board and saying "well, he didn't work out, but that's where he was projected by the experts so its not Caldwell's fault".
It is Caldwell's fault, because he should be more of an expert than any of the media-talking heads... and he is not. Any of us on this board could go to the store, pick up a copy of Lindy's Pro Football Review, check the draft projections, and do as good or better of a job than Caldwell has done the last 8 years. But we aren't getting paid a couple million dollars to do that. He is, and the results are brutal.
The definition of franchise QB to me is a guy where you don't have to hesitate to give him the big 2nd contract. You know he's going to become so expensive that you're going to have to sacrifice in some other areas to be able to fit him under the salary cap, and you do it anyway because you think he can carry your team if given a solid but not spectacular supporting cast.
I think Minshew is a very solid guy to have while he is among the cheapest QBs in the league, but I'm not giving him that big 2nd contract.
(10-07-2020, 04:36 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The definition of franchise QB to me is a guy where you don't have to hesitate to give him the big 2nd contract. You know he's going to become so expensive that you're going to have to sacrifice in some other areas to be able to fit him under the salary cap, and you do it anyway because you think he can carry your team if given a solid but not spectacular supporting cast.
I think Minshew is a very solid guy to have while he is among the cheapest QBs in the league, but I'm not giving him that big 2nd contract.
That is a great definition of a franchise QB! It is still too early for me to say conclusively, but at this stage I would be in agreement with you about Minshew and not giving him that big 2nd contract.
(10-07-2020, 04:36 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The definition of franchise QB to me is a guy where you don't have to hesitate to give him the big 2nd contract. You know he's going to become so expensive that you're going to have to sacrifice in some other areas to be able to fit him under the salary cap, and you do it anyway because you think he can carry your team if given a solid but not spectacular supporting cast.
I think Minshew is a very solid guy to have while he is among the cheapest QBs in the league, but I'm not giving him that big 2nd contract.
What if he gives you 4600 yards passing, 32 TDs, 12 picks and 7 or 8 wins with this defense? Do you give him a second contract? Depends on how he gets there of course but I think I probably would. The thing that makes me most nervous was listening to Frangie say that Gruden was getting a little frustrated about something with Minshew or he thought he was, I didn't catch the whole comment. That would be alarming.
(10-07-2020, 04:47 PM)hb1148 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2020, 04:36 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The definition of franchise QB to me is a guy where you don't have to hesitate to give him the big 2nd contract. You know he's going to become so expensive that you're going to have to sacrifice in some other areas to be able to fit him under the salary cap, and you do it anyway because you think he can carry your team if given a solid but not spectacular supporting cast.
I think Minshew is a very solid guy to have while he is among the cheapest QBs in the league, but I'm not giving him that big 2nd contract.
What if he gives you 4600 yards passing, 32 TDs, 12 picks and 7 or 8 wins with this defense? Do you give him a second contract? Depends on how he gets there of course but I think I probably would. The thing that makes me most nervous was listening to Frangie say that Gruden was getting a little frustrated about something with Minshew or he thought he was, I didn't catch the whole comment. That would be alarming.
His current statistical projections for the season after 4 games are: 4452 yards, 32 TDs, 16 INTs, and 4 wins. After what may be considered our easiest quarter of the schedule.
I'm betting he ends up with about 3900 yards, throws about 25 TD's, 12 INTs, and 3 wins. I would pass on him with that stat line. That's basically Case Keenum in Denver and Minnesota, with less wins.
Trey Lance is absolutely a top 10 pick, maybe top 5. Trask may creep into top 10.
If Minshew wins 7 games with this sorry team, then he would definitely be the QB of the future. That is unlikely to happen, but we can dream.
Look at someone like Dak Prescott right now. Cowboys are 1-3 like us and he has thrown for 1690 yards in 4 games. That's insane. 9TD's with 3 picks but the D cant stop a nosebleed.
For me the lesson here is your O can put up Madden numbers and it still not matter. I know the league is moving ever more O focused but you need to build both sides of the ball.
The 2017 D rarely gave up more than 21 a game, makes the O's job a lot easier.
(10-07-2020, 06:15 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Look at someone like Dak Prescott right now. Cowboys are 1-3 like us and he has thrown for 1690 yards in 4 games. That's insane. 9TD's with 3 picks but the D cant stop a nosebleed.
For me the lesson here is your O can put up Madden numbers and it still not matter. I know the league is moving ever more O focused but you need to build both sides of the ball.
The 2017 D rarely gave up more than 21 a game, makes the O's job a lot easier.
Agreed. The Dallas offense has also been turning over the football like it is Halloween candy. One for you... one for you... one for you...
The biggest stat that matters most is still wins.
(10-07-2020, 04:36 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The definition of franchise QB to me is a guy where you don't have to hesitate to give him the big 2nd contract. You know he's going to become so expensive that you're going to have to sacrifice in some other areas to be able to fit him under the salary cap, and you do it anyway because you think he can carry your team if given a solid but not spectacular supporting cast.
I think Minshew is a very solid guy to have while he is among the cheapest QBs in the league, but I'm not giving him that big 2nd contract.
The thing is, a "solid but not spectacular supporting cast" means more than wide receivers or running backs. It pretty much includes the whole team. In the case of the Jaguars, if the defense was anywhere close to "solid" we might be looking at a 3-1 first quarter of the season rather than 1-3. 1 player or 1 position should not "carry a team". Minshew isn't "the problem" and is good enough to be a franchise QB. The only problem that I have with him thus far is him holding on to the ball too long rather than throw it away (he's improving on this).
(10-07-2020, 04:00 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2020, 03:38 PM)jaglou53 Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I looked back at the Board's comments about Haskins before the draft. The majority of people loved him and thought he could become a franchise quarterback. This goes to show how difficult it is to find such a player. In reality, how many truly great quarterbacks are there- the guys who can lead their teams to the playoffs year after year despite having an average supporting cast? In the past 10 years, the guys that come to mind are Brady, Manning, Mahomes, Wilson, Brees and Big Ben. It is quite possible that Burrow and Lamar Jackson will eventually belong on this list. I'm probably leaving someone out, but that's a very small number. Andrew Luck, as good as he was, did not win a Super Bowl.
Minshew will never become great like the players listed above. However, he has the rest of this year to show that he is "good enough" to win consistently as long as he has a good supporting cast. The only quarterback in the next draft worth taking with a top 5 pick right now is Lawrence. That would be a no brainer. Fields may also be worth it, but that remains to be seen depending on his performance this season for Ohio State. As it stands today, I'd rather the Jaguars focus the off-season on strengthening the rest of the team. They are fortunate to likely have 4 draft picks in the top 40 and 5 in the top 70. They will have a ton of cap money to acquire at least 2 additional solid players. Will that be enough to compete for the playoffs next season with Minshew at quarterback? That will depend on the development of guys like Chaisson, Josh Jones, Henderson, Bartch and Davon Hamilton. If these 5 become the players they envisioned when they acquired them, I believe the answer is "yes". Chark, Jack, Shennault, Schobert, both Robinsons, Taylor and Linder have already proven they are good players (Cam has improved this season and hopefully isn't hurt too badly). That would mean there is a nucleus of 13 players prior to the off-season. Focus this off-season on improving the defensive line and secondary, add in a difference making tight end like Pitts or Freirmuth and the future should be bright. If Blake Bortles came one bad call away from leading a team to the Super Bowl, Minshew can also- as long as these other pieces come together.
Mahomes went #10. Watson #12. Lamar Jackson #32. Who cares what the media "experts" think. We need a GM with some guts and vision. Is it hard to project these things? Absolutely it is! But that is why the talent evaluators make the big money. It makes me sick hearing some fans praising Caldwell's picks each year just because they align with Mel Kiper's board and saying "well, he didn't work out, but that's where he was projected by the experts so its not Caldwell's fault". It is Caldwell's fault, because he should be more of an expert than any of the media-talking heads... and he is not. Any of us on this board could go to the store, pick up a copy of Lindy's Pro Football Review, check the draft projections, and do as good or better of a job than Caldwell has done the last 8 years. But we aren't getting paid a couple million dollars to do that. He is, and the results are brutal.
No disagreement on that. I can't believe he hasn't been fired yet.
(10-07-2020, 05:07 PM)Rockman1966 Wrote: [ -> ]Trey Lance is absolutely a top 10 pick, maybe top 5. Trask may creep into top 10.
Trey Lance is a one year starter at a tiny school. That is a recipe for disaster.
(10-07-2020, 06:24 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2020, 04:36 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]The definition of franchise QB to me is a guy where you don't have to hesitate to give him the big 2nd contract. You know he's going to become so expensive that you're going to have to sacrifice in some other areas to be able to fit him under the salary cap, and you do it anyway because you think he can carry your team if given a solid but not spectacular supporting cast.
I think Minshew is a very solid guy to have while he is among the cheapest QBs in the league, but I'm not giving him that big 2nd contract.
The thing is, a "solid but not spectacular supporting cast" means more than wide receivers or running backs. It pretty much includes the whole team. In the case of the Jaguars, if the defense was anywhere close to "solid" we might be looking at a 3-1 first quarter of the season rather than 1-3. 1 player or 1 position should not "carry a team". Minshew isn't "the problem" and is good enough to be a franchise QB. The only problem that I have with him thus far is him holding on to the ball too long rather than throw it away (he's improving on this).
Obviously we don't have a solid supporting cast now. I'm saying that once you pay your franchise QB his big 2nd contract you probably aren't going to have the cap space to give him a 00 Ravens, 03 Bucs, or 2014 Seahawks surrounding cast. You're going to have to settle for a hopefully solid supporting cast and then said franchise QB can carry the team over the top.
I don't think Minshew is putting a solid supporting cast over the top. If we had the superlative supporting cast with him on his current rookie deal we might be on to something. But we won't be able to do that in a couple of years when Minshew is going to need his payday (or moving on from).
(10-07-2020, 06:27 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2020, 05:07 PM)Rockman1966 Wrote: [ -> ]Trey Lance is absolutely a top 10 pick, maybe top 5. Trask may creep into top 10.
Trey Lance is a one year starter at a tiny school. That is a recipe for disaster.
It sucks that Lance didn't get a chance to prove it again...but his one year was insanely good, he has all of the tools you want a QB to have in spades, and there have been a plethora of successful tiny school QBs. If we can't get Lawrence or Fields I am probably rolling the dice assuming his predraft process goes well.
(10-07-2020, 08:15 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2020, 06:24 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]The thing is, a "solid but not spectacular supporting cast" means more than wide receivers or running backs. It pretty much includes the whole team. In the case of the Jaguars, if the defense was anywhere close to "solid" we might be looking at a 3-1 first quarter of the season rather than 1-3. 1 player or 1 position should not "carry a team". Minshew isn't "the problem" and is good enough to be a franchise QB. The only problem that I have with him thus far is him holding on to the ball too long rather than throw it away (he's improving on this).
Obviously we don't have a solid supporting cast now. I'm saying that once you pay your franchise QB his big 2nd contract you probably aren't going to have the cap space to give him a 00 Ravens, 03 Bucs, or 2014 Seahawks surrounding cast. You're going to have to settle for a hopefully solid supporting cast and then said franchise QB can carry the team over the top.
I don't think Minshew is putting a solid supporting cast over the top. If we had the superlative supporting cast with him on his current rookie deal we might be on to something. But we won't be able to do that in a couple of years when Minshew is going to need his payday (or moving on from).
(10-07-2020, 06:27 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Trey Lance is a one year starter at a tiny school. That is a recipe for disaster.
It sucks that Lance didn't get a chance to prove it again...but his one year was insanely good, he has all of the tools you want a QB to have in spades, and there have been a plethora of successful tiny school QBs. If we can't get Lawrence or Fields I am probably rolling the dice assuming his predraft process goes well.
I'd pass on a first round QB if we can't get Lawrence. Maybe wait until the top of round 2 and take Kyle Trask. I wouldn't touch Lance at all. He's too unproven and I don't like Fields at all. He's an athlete that lacks football I.Q.
Another game where Minshew is looking more and more NOT the guy.
He looks like a solid backup QB.
He is making every defense we come up against look much better than they are. He’s holding the ball too long, missing his reads, under throwing or over throwing balls. He came into this game having one of the worst red zone completion stats- I don’t think this game improves it. His pocket awareness also seems to not be up to snuff. It seems to be me Gruden is playing up dink and dunks to make up for Minshews shortcomings.
The defense gave the offense plenty of opportunities this week gents...
Minshew is not it.
He's a 6th round pick and he's showing why.
I've lost faith in him. The O-line certainly doesn't help at times but when we need him to make the throws, he can't deliver.
Still 11 games left. No reason to make a decision right now on him. I'll wait to see how he plays in these last 11 and then make a decision
(10-11-2020, 03:48 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Still 11 games left. No reason to make a decision right now on him. I'll wait to see how he plays in these last 11 and then make a decision
Those 11 games won’t be easier than the last 3...we just played 3 teams in a row with no wins and gave them their first....
(10-11-2020, 03:58 PM)Corriewf Wrote: [ -> ] (10-11-2020, 03:48 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Still 11 games left. No reason to make a decision right now on him. I'll wait to see how he plays in these last 11 and then make a decision
Those 11 games won’t be easier than the last 3...we just played 3 teams in a row with no wins and gave them their first....
Did someone say the next 11 will be easier?