(07-11-2023, 02:10 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (07-11-2023, 12:16 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]He didn't say discrimination is fine.
He said that the magnitude of discrimination that whites face is substantially less severe than what Black people face, whether you're comparing them today or 100 years ago.
And he's right.
I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying we're gearing up to have it go the other way in the next hundred years. And that's because folks like him are saying that complaints about encroaching discrimination are "laughable." Because those white people deserve it for all they've done for the last 400 years. Except that it wasn't those white people. And they didn't do it. But collectively their whiteness makes them guilty and deserving of it. But that's just babble to some folks.
(07-11-2023, 02:05 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Back to my other point, there is a problem with whites feeling marginalized. It's like there's a zero-sum game attached to this argument on the left. "Someone needs to feel marginalized... it's time you guys paid your dues." That's [BLEEP] logic. Again, that's not referencing any particular poster here, but rather a certain mindset that is present among some on the left. I am all about closing the gap and generating opportunity. That representation will not be equal across the board. There's no reason it can't be that way, but you don't need to take from one to give to the other. The one exception I make is for the elites. Start capping their wealth and you will see more opportunities arise for everyone else.
More like "White people in your great grandparents' time were bad so you have to pay for it."
That's an interesting prediction. Crazy. But interesting. We'll both be dead. If you made a prediction about an asteroid or a volcano or even climate change doing something 100 years from now, based on physical science, sure, let's get to work.
But social science? Economics? Politics? Give me a break. Not my problem, I'll be dead. That's the only rational reaction (as Maynard Keynes famously said).
(07-09-2023, 10:51 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (07-09-2023, 09:28 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with you about the shirt. It's funny. But as white people, if we wear that, others will think we are racist. So I won't wear it, even though it's funny, even though I would be right and the others would be wrong, and I won't cry about not wearing it.
The Irish were near the bottom of the social ladder here for over a century. To say nothing of the turmoil that brought them here in the first place. The fact that they have been able to climb the ladder speaks to the greatness of our principles, and the solidarity that the Irish had with each other for many years. But the fact that it's taken Black, indigenous, and hispanic people longer to climb the ladder, and they haven't gotten as far up, speaks to the fact that they started out lower, they didn't start out in the cities, and they've gotten a lot more violent pushback along the way.
Or, you know, they got a lot more 'government help" than the Irish did with the predicatible results.
And I was more into this one back in the day:
![[Image: FightingWhites.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/FightingWhites.png)
Tulsa 1921,
Ocoee 1920,
Pine Ridge, 1890
Los Angeles, 1943
Indeed, lots of "government help" was doled out to these disadvantaged groups over the years...
(07-11-2023, 02:29 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-11-2023, 02:14 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Well, enlighten me, dog. I'm assuming you're not a liar, which is why I called it hyperbolic. Suggesting blacks were being hung up in the streets in the 60's, is either a lie or it's hyperbole for effect. You've all but admitted you weren't being literal. So enlighten me. Maybe I'm just a literary dummy and there's some specific term that better explains a gross exaggeration.
I have a million things to do today. Hyperbole. I have 12 tasks to do before I can go home. Fact.
This game is taking forever. Hyperbole. This game is the longest ever recorded. Fact.
This jock strap is killing me. Hyperbole My nuts are too big for this jock strap. Fact.
Your brain is the size of a pea. Hyperbole. You are not admitting your statement was hyperbolic. Fact.
Black folks were being strung up in the 60's. Hyperbole. Blacks were still being discriminated in the 60's in a way the Irish weren't. Fact.
We've been through this.
I laid it all out.
I'll do it again.
Saying that there were blacks being lynched in America in the 60s for being black is an accurate statement.
There were simply more of them being murdered this way in the decades prior. As you've pointed out. Thanks, I guess.
You are pointing out that I chose a particular decade to cite - and it's not the best example of the relevant point.
Cool. Doesn't make it hyperbole.
I didn't exaggerate anything. I just didn't use the best example in terms of timeline. There was no intent to inflate, exaggerate or mislead. Sheesh - I expect most here to have a modicum of understanding about the history of this stuff or I wouldn't have referenced it.
My statement could have read "in the twentieth century" instead of "the sixties" and been more accurate.
But that doesn't make the less accurate (but still true) original statement hyperbole.
It was simply hastily worded because I didn't think it would ensue three pages of semantics that are completely irrelevant to the point.
You didn't say that. You asked if the "Irish Americans were being strung up in trees for being Irish in the mid-sixties," which implies that blacks were being strung up in trees, to which I said you were being hyperbolic, which is exaggerating for effect because they weren't being hung up in trees in the 60's. No matter how you spin it, what you ACTUALLY implied was hyperbolic. Sure, if you made it factual and used the 20th century, it wouldn't be. That's your bad and leaves you with a few outs: either you misspoke because you didn't realize that was untrue, you misled because you knew it was untrue and wanted people to think that was, or you chose your words carelessly because you were balls deep in an American pie. Of those three choices, I'd take the last one.
...Or you were exaggerating for effect because you wanted to make an obvious point. You're all but admitting that last bit, but, for whatever reason, you don't want to see that statement as hyperbolic. I'm done arguing it. On its face, the statement is hyperbolic, regardless of your intentions, and I only corrected it because there are many people who literally believe blacks were being strung up in the 60's. I'm going to have to move on, because Mikey's over here getting jealous that I'm not giving his "serious" posts the attention they deserve.
On a side note, I'm really bummed nobody appreciated the subtlety of the digs in my last post. That's a great progression, and I wish I could downvote you all for not commenting.
Hyperbole - noun - "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."
NYC's statements may have been hyperbole. We don't know his intent. We don't know if he was momentarily confused about which decade is which, or if he really meant to exaggerate how bad it was for Black people in the 60s.
Either way, his statement connoted something completely true, which is Black people had it worse than Irish people in pretty much every way, even though the Irish had it very rough for a while.
(07-11-2023, 02:29 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-11-2023, 02:14 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Well, enlighten me, dog. I'm assuming you're not a liar, which is why I called it hyperbolic. Suggesting blacks were being hung up in the streets in the 60's, is either a lie or it's hyperbole for effect. You've all but admitted you weren't being literal. So enlighten me. Maybe I'm just a literary dummy and there's some specific term that better explains a gross exaggeration.
I have a million things to do today. Hyperbole. I have 12 tasks to do before I can go home. Fact.
This game is taking forever. Hyperbole. This game is the longest ever recorded. Fact.
This jock strap is killing me. Hyperbole My nuts are too big for this jock strap. Fact.
Your brain is the size of a pea. Hyperbole. You are not admitting your statement was hyperbolic. Fact.
Black folks were being strung up in the 60's. Hyperbole. Blacks were still being discriminated in the 60's in a way the Irish weren't. Fact.
We've been through this.
I laid it all out.
I'll do it again.
Saying that there were blacks being lynched in America in the 60s for being black is an accurate statement.
There were simply more of them being murdered this way in the decades prior. As you've pointed out. Thanks, I guess.
You are pointing out that I chose a particular decade to cite - and it's not the best example of the relevant point.
Cool. Doesn't make it hyperbole.
I didn't exaggerate anything. I just didn't use the best example in terms of timeline. There was no intent to inflate, exaggerate or mislead. Sheesh - I expect most here to have a modicum of understanding about the history of this stuff or I wouldn't have referenced it.
My statement could have read "in the twentieth century" instead of "the sixties" and been more accurate.
But that doesn't make the less accurate (but still true) original statement hyperbole.
It was simply hastily worded because I didn't think it would ensue three pages of semantics that are completely irrelevant to the point.
I love your posts regarding the Jags, not so much in this section of the forum. Naturally you choose the the closest timeline you thought you could get away with as anything further becomes less and less relevant. You used hyperbole and didn’t know your facts, learn from it admit it and move on.
(07-11-2023, 10:51 PM)Jagfan44 Wrote: [ -> ] (07-11-2023, 02:29 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]We've been through this.
I laid it all out.
I'll do it again.
Saying that there were blacks being lynched in America in the 60s for being black is an accurate statement.
There were simply more of them being murdered this way in the decades prior. As you've pointed out. Thanks, I guess.
You are pointing out that I chose a particular decade to cite - and it's not the best example of the relevant point.
Cool. Doesn't make it hyperbole.
I didn't exaggerate anything. I just didn't use the best example in terms of timeline. There was no intent to inflate, exaggerate or mislead. Sheesh - I expect most here to have a modicum of understanding about the history of this stuff or I wouldn't have referenced it.
My statement could have read "in the twentieth century" instead of "the sixties" and been more accurate.
But that doesn't make the less accurate (but still true) original statement hyperbole.
It was simply hastily worded because I didn't think it would ensue three pages of semantics that are completely irrelevant to the point.
I love your posts regarding the Jags, not so much in this section of the forum. Naturally you choose the the closest timeline you thought you could get away with as anything further becomes less and less relevant. You used hyperbole and didn’t know your facts, learn from it admit it and move on.
A. I post in this little political cesspool when I'm bored sometimes. Wasn't trying to make fans. I'm a self proclaimed opinionated jerk. Glad you like my football ramblings, though.
B. I pulled the 1960's out of my [BLEEP] while typing a sentence - it still makes my point clearly enough - but I wish like hell I'd said 1950's or 40's so you lot could stop being focused a silly digression instead of the actual point.
LOL
The point that it's ok to discriminate against white people today because white people in the past discriminated against POCs? That point?
(07-12-2023, 11:09 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The point that it's ok to discriminate against white people today because white people in the past discriminated against POCs? That point?
No.
The point I've reiterated several times that you willfully ignore.
Discrimination happens.
It is bad - but it isn't going to magically stop.
It's evolves and shifts with change in populace, demographics and political climate.
And finally, most on-topic, the current complaints of middle class whites in America compared to the recent history of so many other groups are flatly comical. Like, laugh out loud ridiculous.
Please for the love of Christmas don't make me say this again. LOL
BTW - for personal context - I - a middle class white guy - have personally missed out on job opportunities to persons of color that may have been marginally less qualified, and I still find this stuff hilarious.
(07-12-2023, 09:54 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-11-2023, 10:51 PM)Jagfan44 Wrote: [ -> ]I love your posts regarding the Jags, not so much in this section of the forum. Naturally you choose the the closest timeline you thought you could get away with as anything further becomes less and less relevant. You used hyperbole and didn’t know your facts, learn from it admit it and move on.
A. I post in this little political cesspool when I'm bored sometimes. Wasn't trying to make fans. I'm a self proclaimed opinionated jerk. Glad you like my football ramblings, though.
B. I pulled the 1960's out of my [BLEEP] while typing a sentence - it still makes my point clearly enough - but I wish like hell I'd said 1950's or 40's so you lot could stop being focused a silly digression instead of the actual point.
LOL
B. That's cool. I never missed the point. The Irish, were not oppressed as the same way as blacks in this country. Reading you loud and clear, friend.
However, I don't consider it a digression to point out stuff that is misleading. I mean, isn't the whole point of the misinformation and rhetoric thread about turning down the volume a bit and having people own their mistakes? Suggesting, even if just getting a date wrong, that blacks were being strung up does ratchet up the severity a notch, no?
Personally, I don't mind that you got a little reckless with your statement. We all do it. I just find it weird that you're begrudging this tangent, when the whole purpose was to clear up an untruth. It should have come and gone if not for your protest, which then made it about holding you accountable, which also should have been a two-post issue.
"Hey, don't you think that was hyperbolic?"
"My bad, dude... didn't mean it to be hyperbolic; I misspoke."
Your point wasn't wrong, but your facts were. Isn't that why people get made at Orangemanbad. You just seemed to be excusing yourself instead of owning up to the mistake. No biggy. It puts you in lofty company.
(07-12-2023, 11:21 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2023, 11:09 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The point that it's ok to discriminate against white people today because white people in the past discriminated against POCs? That point?
No.
The point I've reiterated several times that you willfully ignore.
Discrimination happens.
It is bad - but it isn't going to magically stop.
It's evolves and shifts with change in populace, demographics and political climate.
And finally, most on-topic, the current complaints of middle class whites in America compared to the recent history of so many other groups are flatly comical. Like, laugh out loud ridiculous.
Please for the love of Christmas don't make me say this again. LOL
BTW - for personal context - I - a middle class white guy - have personally missed out on job opportunities to persons of color that may have been marginally less qualified, and I still find this stuff hilarious.
I agree that discrimination happens. I will go one step further and say merit-based discrimination is good. Discrimination that stems from prejudice is never ok. I don't want to have a political dialogue that substitutes one prejudice for another.
(07-12-2023, 02:33 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2023, 09:54 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]A. I post in this little political cesspool when I'm bored sometimes. Wasn't trying to make fans. I'm a self proclaimed opinionated jerk. Glad you like my football ramblings, though.
B. I pulled the 1960's out of my [BLEEP] while typing a sentence - it still makes my point clearly enough - but I wish like hell I'd said 1950's or 40's so you lot could stop being focused a silly digression instead of the actual point.
LOL
B. That's cool. I never missed the point. The Irish, were not oppressed as the same way as blacks in this country. Reading you loud and clear, friend.
However, I don't consider it a digression to point out stuff that is misleading. I mean, isn't the whole point of the misinformation and rhetoric thread about turning down the volume a bit and having people own their mistakes? Suggesting, even if just getting a date wrong, that blacks were being strung up does ratchet up the severity a notch, no?
Personally, I don't mind that you got a little reckless with your statement. We all do it. I just find it weird that you're begrudging this tangent, when the whole purpose was to clear up an untruth. It should have come and gone if not for your protest, which then made it about holding you accountable, which also should have been a two-post issue.
"Hey, don't you think that was hyperbolic?"
"My bad, dude... didn't mean it to be hyperbolic; I misspoke."
Your point wasn't wrong, but your facts were. Isn't that why people get made at Orangemanbad. You just seemed to be excusing yourself instead of owning up to the mistake. No biggy. It puts you in lofty company.
The facts were accurate. Not sure why you want to drag on with semantics for pages and still can't get that detail sorted.
They just would have been much better served citing prior decades to the one I haphazardly inserted.
And this:
"Hey, don't you think that was hyperbolic?"
"My bad, dude... didn't mean it to be hyperbolic; I misspoke."
I feel like I said that ^ in so many words. Honest apologies I wasn't more clear/direct about it.
(07-12-2023, 03:07 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]![[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2Ff5vwu.g...ipo=images]](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgflip.com%2Ff5vwu.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4b120e61c16f822d47ff4eeb35539259a76f6a7ff7913befc4e556ec8a030a8c&ipo=images)
You're Carl Weathers.
LOL
I'll take that.
Wait... doesn't he get killed off in like every film? LOL
Yes, but he's always avenged.
(07-12-2023, 02:39 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2023, 11:21 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]No.
The point I've reiterated several times that you willfully ignore.
Discrimination happens.
It is bad - but it isn't going to magically stop.
It's evolves and shifts with change in populace, demographics and political climate.
And finally, most on-topic, the current complaints of middle class whites in America compared to the recent history of so many other groups are flatly comical. Like, laugh out loud ridiculous.
Please for the love of Christmas don't make me say this again. LOL
BTW - for personal context - I - a middle class white guy - have personally missed out on job opportunities to persons of color that may have been marginally less qualified, and I still find this stuff hilarious.
I agree that discrimination happens. I will go one step further and say merit-based discrimination is good. Discrimination that stems from prejudice is never ok. I don't want to have a political dialogue that substitutes one prejudice for another.
I'm not sure why you went after NYC for using hyperbole.
If it's because he previously attacked me for using hyperbole, thanks dude. Have a nice evening either way.
(07-12-2023, 11:21 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2023, 11:09 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The point that it's ok to discriminate against white people today because white people in the past discriminated against POCs? That point?
No.
The point I've reiterated several times that you willfully ignore.
Discrimination happens.
It is bad - but it isn't going to magically stop.
It's evolves and shifts with change in populace, demographics and political climate.
And finally, most on-topic, the current complaints of middle class whites in America compared to the recent history of so many other groups are flatly comical. Like, laugh out loud ridiculous.
Please for the love of Christmas don't make me say this again. LOL
BTW - for personal context - I - a middle class white guy - have personally missed out on job opportunities to persons of color that may have been marginally less qualified, and I still find this stuff hilarious.
I don't find it hilarious at all. We have seen our government go from campaigning against discrimination, and outlawing discrimination in the 1960s, to endorsing discrimination and encouraging it, starting in the very next decade. That is a horrible thing to do for race relations.
No, it's not comical. It's not comical to go from outlawing discrimination, from trying to teach everyone that discrimination is bad, to saying, unless it's discrimination against white males, then it's okay. Government policies like that are a recruiting tool for right wing extremists. To turn civil rights on its head, and say everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others? Not funny at all.
(07-12-2023, 08:07 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2023, 02:39 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that discrimination happens. I will go one step further and say merit-based discrimination is good. Discrimination that stems from prejudice is never ok. I don't want to have a political dialogue that substitutes one prejudice for another.
I'm not sure why you went after NYC for using hyperbole.
If it's because he previously attacked me for using hyperbole, thanks dude. Have a nice evening either way.
I just go after what I perceive to be untruths. I want to know why there is a misunderstanding. I hope either I can show why they are wrong, or they can show me where I am wrong. In this case, I thought the truth of black struggle is sufficient without exaggeration, and NYC explained he misspoke. Simple enough. Now everyone is on the same page. Most of us will admit that discrimination against blacks carried well into the modern era, and also admit that they weren't being lynched regularly in the 60's. The goal for me is always the pursuit of truth. I hope you have a great day, too.
(07-13-2023, 06:03 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2023, 11:21 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]No.
The point I've reiterated several times that you willfully ignore.
Discrimination happens.
It is bad - but it isn't going to magically stop.
It's evolves and shifts with change in populace, demographics and political climate.
And finally, most on-topic, the current complaints of middle class whites in America compared to the recent history of so many other groups are flatly comical. Like, laugh out loud ridiculous.
Please for the love of Christmas don't make me say this again. LOL
BTW - for personal context - I - a middle class white guy - have personally missed out on job opportunities to persons of color that may have been marginally less qualified, and I still find this stuff hilarious.
I don't find it hilarious at all. We have seen our government go from campaigning against discrimination, and outlawing discrimination in the 1960s, to endorsing discrimination and encouraging it, starting in the very next decade. That is a horrible thing to do for race relations.
No, it's not comical. It's not comical to go from outlawing discrimination, from trying to teach everyone that discrimination is bad, to saying, unless it's discrimination against white males, then it's okay. Government policies like that are a recruiting tool for right wing extremists. To turn civil rights on its head, and say everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others? Not funny at all.
It's the politics of Collective Guilt, a necessity for the left wing to succeed.
(07-13-2023, 06:03 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (07-12-2023, 11:21 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]No.
The point I've reiterated several times that you willfully ignore.
Discrimination happens.
It is bad - but it isn't going to magically stop.
It's evolves and shifts with change in populace, demographics and political climate.
And finally, most on-topic, the current complaints of middle class whites in America compared to the recent history of so many other groups are flatly comical. Like, laugh out loud ridiculous.
Please for the love of Christmas don't make me say this again. LOL
BTW - for personal context - I - a middle class white guy - have personally missed out on job opportunities to persons of color that may have been marginally less qualified, and I still find this stuff hilarious.
I don't find it hilarious at all. We have seen our government go from campaigning against discrimination, and outlawing discrimination in the 1960s, to endorsing discrimination and encouraging it, starting in the very next decade. That is a horrible thing to do for race relations.
No, it's not comical. It's not comical to go from outlawing discrimination, from trying to teach everyone that discrimination is bad, to saying, unless it's discrimination against white males, then it's okay. Government policies like that are a recruiting tool for right wing extremists. To turn civil rights on its head, and say everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others? Not funny at all.
LOLWUT??
Who is "endorsing discrimination and encouraging it?"