Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(02-28-2024, 02:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 01:32 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, he didn't look good last year even in the first 4 games compared to his 2022 year where he looked very good.  Everyone couldn't wait for Cam to get back from his suspension

Lol, then everyone misunderstood how the issue was the left guard who ended up cut a month later. Usually "everyone" is just dumb. Walker Little graded out just fine at left tackle, he only moved because he's better at guard than the guards we had and PEDSRob couldn't play guard at all. That's more on how bad the guard situation was than how Little plays.

(02-27-2024, 03:51 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with the belief that they're not going to replace three positions on the offensive line in one off season. Seems like a ton of work to do and it requires a lot of continuity. Ideally, I think it'll be something like this:

LT - Cam Robinson
LG - Ezra Cleveland
C - Tyler Biadasz - Signed in FA.
RG - Christian Haynes - Drafted in RD2.
RT - Anton Harrison

or

LT - Cam Robinson
LG - Graham Barton - Drafted with the 17th pick.
C - Luke Fortner - Potential replacement in Zack Zinter or Sedrick Van Pran drafted in RD3.
RG -  Robert Hunt - Signed from Miami in FA. Biggest pick-up financially in the off season potentially.
RT - Anton Harrison

Perfect scenario for me?

LT - Anton Harrison - Moved after Cam Robinson is cut.
LG - Walker Little - Draft Javion Cohen with the 115th pick to compete with him.
C - Zach Frazier - Drafted 48th overall. Fortner moved to back-up role. Can still compete.
RG - Robert Hunt - Signed by Miami after Brandon Scherff is cut.
RT - Amarius Mims - Drafted 17th overall.

---

Also, just like last year. It wouldn't shock me one bit if Baalke trades out of the 17th pick and takes Oklahoma's Tyler Guyton or Duke's Graham Barton somewhere in the 20's to play RT as a rookie with Anton Harrison moving over to LT. Wouldn't shock me one bit.

If he can pick-up a future pick with a 2nd RD pick in this draft he'll probably do it.

(02-28-2024, 04:34 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 02:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, then everyone misunderstood how the issue was the left guard who ended up cut a month later. Usually "everyone" is just dumb. Walker Little graded out just fine at left tackle, he only moved because he's better at guard than the guards we had and PEDSRob couldn't play guard at all. That's more on how bad the guard situation was than how Little plays.

If we are going by grades your boy Ezra Cleveland was about as bad as Fortner,   Now that's bad.  I've been Littles biggest supporter but his play declined a bit last year.  I do think if we give him a full camp at LT though maybe he can get back to his 2022 form.  Then we don't have a swing tackle if Little or Ton goes down though.  I'd be good with either decision at LT and I'd be good with Harrison at LT as well.  LT on this team is the least of my worries

(02-27-2024, 03:51 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with the belief that they're not going to replace three positions on the offensive line in one off season. Seems like a ton of work to do and it requires a lot of continuity. Ideally, I think it'll be something like this:

LT - Cam Robinson
LG - Ezra Cleveland
C - Tyler Biadasz - Signed in FA.
RG - Christian Haynes - Drafted in RD2.
RT - Anton Harrison

or

LT - Cam Robinson
LG - Graham Barton - Drafted with the 17th pick.
C - Luke Fortner - Potential replacement in Zack Zinter or Sedrick Van Pran drafted in RD3.
RG -  Robert Hunt - Signed from Miami in FA. Biggest pick-up financially in the off season potentially.
RT - Anton Harrison

Perfect scenario for me?

LT - Anton Harrison - Moved after Cam Robinson is cut.
LG - Walker Little - Draft Javion Cohen with the 115th pick to compete with him.
C - Zach Frazier - Drafted 48th overall. Fortner moved to back-up role. Can still compete.
RG - Robert Hunt - Signed by Miami after Brandon Scherff is cut.
RT - Amarius Mims - Drafted 17th overall.

---

Also, just like last year. It wouldn't shock me one bit if Baalke trades out of the 17th pick and takes Oklahoma's Tyler Guyton or Duke's Graham Barton somewhere in the 20's to play RT as a rookie with Anton Harrison moving over to LT. Wouldn't shock me one bit.

If he can pick-up a future pick with a 2nd RD pick in this draft he'll probably do it.

(02-28-2024, 05:19 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 04:34 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we are going by grades your boy Ezra Cleveland was about as bad as Fortner,   Now that's bad.  I've been Littles biggest supporter but his play declined a bit last year.  I do think if we give him a full camp at LT though maybe he can get back to his 2022 form.  Then we don't have a swing tackle if Little or Ton goes down though.  I'd be good with either decision at LT and I'd be good with Harrison at LT as well.  LT on this team is the least of my worries

That's because you don't comprehend nuance in the grading. From weeks 1 to 6 Cleveland was rated at 73.8, which is right in line with his season grade from 2022, so relatively consistent. He broke his foot in week 7 and didn't play again until after he was traded here in week 11, after which it's obvious he wasn't right. It's pretty clear that Baalke brought in an guy who wasn't healthy and that's why it took them so long to get him on the field here. Meanwhile, the guy you're attempting to say is the same graded 44 and 49 respectively in his two years. So, yeah, another stellar example of why should of read before you posted.

Little meanwhile, averaged 70.1 in the first five games before they moved him to guard and got hurt. That number is 2 points better than his rookie year and 9 points better than 2022 when you said he played better. The simple fact is that he's a perfectly fine left tackle and moving him to guard injured him and made this line worse.  They should've cut Robinson last year when they had an out for that ridiculous contract and rolled with Little at tackle all year. It's too bad they're going to double down on that error again this year.

(02-28-2024, 05:19 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 04:34 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we are going by grades your boy Ezra Cleveland was about as bad as Fortner,   Now that's bad.  I've been Littles biggest supporter but his play declined a bit last year.  I do think if we give him a full camp at LT though maybe he can get back to his 2022 form.  Then we don't have a swing tackle if Little or Ton goes down though.  I'd be good with either decision at LT and I'd be good with Harrison at LT as well.  LT on this team is the least of my worries

That's because you don't comprehend nuance in the grading. From weeks 1 to 6 Cleveland was rated at 73.8, which is right in line with his season grade from 2022, so relatively consistent. He broke his foot in week 7 and didn't play again until after he was traded here in week 11, after which it's obvious he wasn't right. It's pretty clear that Baalke brought in an guy who wasn't healthy and that's why it took them so long to get him on the field here. Meanwhile, the guy you're attempting to say is the same graded 44 and 49 respectively in his two years. So, yeah, another stellar example of why should of read before you posted.

Little meanwhile, averaged 70.1 in the first five games before they moved him to guard and got hurt. That number is 2 points better than his rookie year and 9 points better than 2022 when you said he played better. The simple fact is that he's a perfectly fine left tackle and moving him to guard injured him and made this line worse.  They should've cut Robinson last year when they had an out for that ridiculous contract and rolled with Little at tackle all year. It's too bad they're going to double down on that error again this year.

(02-28-2024, 06:40 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 05:19 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]That's because you don't comprehend nuance in the grading. From weeks 1 to 6 Cleveland was rated at 73.8, which is right in line with his season grade from 2022, so relatively consistent. He broke his foot in week 7 and didn't play again until after he was traded here in week 11, after which it's obvious he wasn't right. It's pretty clear that Baalke brought in an guy who wasn't healthy and that's why it took them so long to get him on the field here. Meanwhile, the guy you're attempting to say is the same graded 44 and 49 respectively in his two years. So, yeah, another stellar example of why should of read before you posted.

Little meanwhile, averaged 70.1 in the first five games before they moved him to guard and got hurt. That number is 2 points better than his rookie year and 9 points better than 2022 when you said he played better. The simple fact is that he's a perfectly fine left tackle and moving him to guard injured him and made this line worse.  They should've cut Robinson last year when they had an out for that ridiculous contract and rolled with Little at tackle all year. It's too bad they're going to double down on that error again this year.

I understand exactly how grading works.  With that said I dont just look at a pff grade to determine if a player is good or not.   I actually watch the games and you can look at the pff grade to determine if it matches the eye test.    This is a what have you done for me lately league.  Scherff was hurt, Little was hurt, Cam was hurt, Ezra was hurt, Hamilton was hurt, Campbell was hurt, they were all hurt.  Most of our oline could play on one leg and be better than Fortner.  Cleveland was horrendous and if he was that hurt he shouldn't of been on the field and hurting the team.    I'd resign Cleveland back depending on the price but I'm not giving him some big contract and it wouldnt stop me from drafting a rookie for him to compete for the LG spot.

(02-28-2024, 03:45 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]It's also why we could keep Scherff. Do you really want to replace starting caliber players just because they're not "worth it"?

(02-28-2024, 04:06 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Really feels like thier just gonna rollout the same line and get Lawrence killed again. The excuse all offseason so far is "well they never played together cause they were hurt". The problem with that is there is no guarantee that if the line was all health that it would even be a good line.

(02-28-2024, 04:34 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 02:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, then everyone misunderstood how the issue was the left guard who ended up cut a month later. Usually "everyone" is just dumb. Walker Little graded out just fine at left tackle, he only moved because he's better at guard than the guards we had and PEDSRob couldn't play guard at all. That's more on how bad the guard situation was than how Little plays.

If we are going by grades your boy Ezra Cleveland was about as bad as Fortner,   Now that's bad.  I've been Littles biggest supporter but his play declined a bit last year.  I do think if we give him a full camp at LT though maybe he can get back to his 2022 form.  Then we don't have a swing tackle if Little or Ton goes down though.  I'd be good with either decision at LT and I'd be good with Harrison at LT as well.  LT on this team is the least of my worries

(02-28-2024, 05:19 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 04:34 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we are going by grades your boy Ezra Cleveland was about as bad as Fortner,   Now that's bad.  I've been Littles biggest supporter but his play declined a bit last year.  I do think if we give him a full camp at LT though maybe he can get back to his 2022 form.  Then we don't have a swing tackle if Little or Ton goes down though.  I'd be good with either decision at LT and I'd be good with Harrison at LT as well.  LT on this team is the least of my worries

That's because you don't comprehend nuance in the grading. From weeks 1 to 6 Cleveland was rated at 73.8, which is right in line with his season grade from 2022, so relatively consistent. He broke his foot in week 7 and didn't play again until after he was traded here in week 11, after which it's obvious he wasn't right. It's pretty clear that Baalke brought in an guy who wasn't healthy and that's why it took them so long to get him on the field here. Meanwhile, the guy you're attempting to say is the same graded 44 and 49 respectively in his two years. So, yeah, another stellar example of why should of read before you posted.

Little meanwhile, averaged 70.1 in the first five games before they moved him to guard and got hurt. That number is 2 points better than his rookie year and 9 points better than 2022 when you said he played better. The simple fact is that he's a perfectly fine left tackle and moving him to guard injured him and made this line worse.  They should've cut Robinson last year when they had an out for that ridiculous contract and rolled with Little at tackle all year. It's too bad they're going to double down on that error again this year.

(02-29-2024, 09:21 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-28-2024, 04:06 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Really feels like thier just gonna rollout the same line and get Lawrence killed again. The excuse all offseason so far is "well they never played together cause they were hurt". The problem with that is there is no guarantee that if the line was all health that it would even be a good line.

Maybe I'm just terminally optimistic but I think there is nuance between the same line and slight change leading to improvement.

Restructure Cam - no change, but cap adjustment benefits team
Re-sign Cleveland - no change, but proven guy and possible stability
FA or Darft a C - we gotta do something here, this is the most critical weakness on the line.
Stick with Scherff - no change, no renegotiation, proven guy but risk of age and injury catching up to him
Stick with Harrison - no change, young, affordable player who is doing well and developing.

So yeah, if we start week 1 with 80% of last season's line, it's not drastic change. Is it improvement from last season? Potentially. Injury is an inevitability on the line. Even if we don't aim at starters early in the darft, we darn sure better be working to build that depth. I think we saw first-hand what injury can do to submarine a promising season last year.

---

(02-28-2024, 04:34 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]If we are going by grades your boy Ezra Cleveland was about as bad as Fortner,   Now that's bad.  I've been Littles biggest supporter but his play declined a bit last year.  I do think if we give him a full camp at LT though maybe he can get back to his 2022 form.  Then we don't have a swing tackle if Little or Ton goes down though.  I'd be good with either decision at LT and I'd be good with Harrison at LT as well.  LT on this team is the least of my worries

I wonder how much of Cleveland's bad grades were him trying to pick up Fortner's slack, though. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to defenestrate my TV after a tackle behind the line and Fortner standing around with nobody engaged.

(02-29-2024, 12:33 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-29-2024, 09:21 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe I'm just terminally optimistic but I think there is nuance between the same line and slight change leading to improvement.

Restructure Cam - no change, but cap adjustment benefits team
Re-sign Cleveland - no change, but proven guy and possible stability
FA or Darft a C - we gotta do something here, this is the most critical weakness on the line.
Stick with Scherff - no change, no renegotiation, proven guy but risk of age and injury catching up to him
Stick with Harrison - no change, young, affordable player who is doing well and developing.

So yeah, if we start week 1 with 80% of last season's line, it's not drastic change. Is it improvement from last season? Potentially. Injury is an inevitability on the line. Even if we don't aim at starters early in the darft, we darn sure better be working to build that depth. I think we saw first-hand what injury can do to submarine a promising season last year.

---

I wonder how much of Cleveland's bad grades were him trying to pick up Fortner's slack, though. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to defenestrate my TV after a tackle behind the line and Fortner standing around with nobody engaged.

Ezra came to jax already hurt and played through it - clearly coming back too soon - while trying to help save an already banged up and dysfunctional line.

I don't think we know what we have in him from that small sample, but if they believe in him as a fixture they should def seek to have someone more worthy of backing up the guard spots than what we've had of late. 

I don't believe that Doug and TB are going to sit on their hands re: IOL this offseason - but I am concerned they won't do enough.

(02-29-2024, 12:46 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-29-2024, 12:33 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Ezra came to jax already hurt and played through it - clearly coming back too soon - while trying to help save an already banged up and dysfunctional line.

I don't think we know what we have in him from that small sample, but if they believe in him as a fixture they should def seek to have someone more worthy of backing up the guard spots than what we've had of late. 

I don't believe that Doug and TB are going to sit on their hands re: IOL this offseason - but I am concerned they won't do enough.

With three positions within that interior group I think there's only so much you can do. I don't see them entering training camp with three new faces there. Just doesn't seem realistic at all. 

What should be realistically possible is two new faces in the line-up with a pair of serious investments made that can eventually start in 2025 or play in 2024 in the event someone gets hurt, which we all know will more than likely happen. 

I think we're looking at Robinson at LT, Harrison at RT and Cleveland at LG. This leaves the team with Walker Little still on the bench as the Swing Tackle and Guard role. Cooper Hodges as a guy coming back from injuries that can also play a Swing Tackle role and potential Guard role. 

I think that leaves the team with two decisions to make between March and April. Fortner at Center (Weakest Link) and Scherff at Right Guard (Cap & Age). One of those guys or both of those guys is probably replaced this off season. I would prefer it be Fortner. 

I think I could stomach Robinson - Cleveland - Veteran - Scherff - Harrison in 2024. BUT, the catch is that, Baalke invests a pair of draft picks EARLY in April to solve some of these problems later on in the year or at the beginning of 2025.

Two names that I keep coming back to. Graham Barton out of Duke and Christian Haynes out of Uconn. Those two guys offer some versatility and those two guys are probably RD2 - RD3 options. 

If we go a little further down, in RD4? We can start looking at guys like Javion Cohen at Guard and Andrew Raym at Center, etc. They just need to show a serious effort in bolstering the interior in the immediate time being and very near future. 

That way, it's something like this:

LT - Robinson - Little & Hodges as Swing Tackle Options.
LG - Cleveland - Cooper Hodges as back-up.
C - Veteran - Fortner in back-up role with new face that can play Guard/Center as an early investment. 
RG - Scherff - New face that can play Guard/Tackle as an early investment. 
RT - Harrison - Little & Hodges as Swing Tackle Options.

Just not going to get my hopes up with this current front office. They've had two - three years to get this right, get this corrected, and, they're taking their sweet [BLEEP] time in doing so.

(02-29-2024, 12:51 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-29-2024, 12:46 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]With three positions within that interior group I think there's only so much you can do. I don't see them entering training camp with three new faces there. Just doesn't seem realistic at all. 

What should be realistically possible is two new faces in the line-up with a pair of serious investments made that can eventually start in 2025 or play in 2024 in the event someone gets hurt, which we all know will more than likely happen. 

I think we're looking at Robinson at LT, Harrison at RT and Cleveland at LG. This leaves the team with Walker Little still on the bench as the Swing Tackle and Guard role. Cooper Hodges as a guy coming back from injuries that can also play a Swing Tackle role and potential Guard role. 

I think that leaves the team with two decisions to make between March and April. Fortner at Center (Weakest Link) and Scherff at Right Guard (Cap & Age). One of those guys or both of those guys is probably replaced this off season. I would prefer it be Fortner. 

I think I could stomach Robinson - Cleveland - Veteran - Scherff - Harrison in 2024. BUT, the catch is that, Baalke invests a pair of draft picks EARLY in April to solve some of these problems later on in the year or at the beginning of 2025.

Two names that I keep coming back to. Graham Barton out of Duke and Christian Haynes out of Uconn. Those two guys offer some versatility and those two guys are probably RD2 - RD3 options. 

If we go a little further down, in RD4? We can start looking at guys like Javion Cohen at Guard and Andrew Raym at Center, etc. They just need to show a serious effort in bolstering the interior in the immediate time being and very near future. 

That way, it's something like this:

LT - Robinson - Little & Hodges as Swing Tackle Options.
LG - Cleveland - Cooper Hodges as back-up.
C - Veteran - Fortner in back-up role with new face that can play Guard/Center as an early investment. 
RG - Scherff - New face that can play Guard/Tackle as an early investment. 
RT - Harrison - Little & Hodges as Swing Tackle Options.

Just not going to get my hopes up with this current front office. They've had two - three years to get this right, get this corrected, and, they're taking their sweet [BLEEP] time in doing so.

I definitely don't expect three new faces. 

I'm hoping for two - but we may see one clear new starter + competition for another spot that constitutes improved depth. I'd grit my teeth and bear it. 

If they come into camp without any competition for Fortner... I might seriously lose my [BLEEP] though.

(02-29-2024, 12:56 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-29-2024, 12:51 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I definitely don't expect three new faces. 

I'm hoping for two - but we may see one clear new starter + competition for another spot that constitutes improved depth. I'd grit my teeth and bear it. 

If they come into camp without any competition for Fortner... I might seriously lose my [BLEEP] though.

Yep. I think that's the must. If that's not the top priority on their to-do list this off season I don't know what they're doing anymore. I think they're better served in signing a free agent at Center, regulating Fortner to back-up duties there and even Guard duties in some capacity and then they have a goal of drafting another promising player that can play C/G or C/T. 

That's why I keep bringing up Barton and Haynes now. One of those guys can start on this football team today if needed and at the minimum is pushing somebody this summer for a job if they decide to keep the same people from last year. Fortner ABSOLUTELY needs competition though.