If teams were aware of Gronk's NFL production leading up to the draft, where do you think he would have been drafted? (If you knew just his production numbers and nothing else; injuries or other players' production in the draft.) It may not be #4 because there were a lot of other good prospects in that draft, but he would have been a top 10 pick. The 2013 draft could be a different story.
If a team thinks Howard can be as productive, both in personal numbers and in defenses focusing on stopping a TE, it would be worth a top 5 pick.
No it would not. A team that does not use TE to grab one at 4.
Quote:No it would not. A team that does not use TE to grab one at 4.
If they feel he is BPA at 4 in the draft, Hackett would get Howard lots of targets. You adapt your system to your talent.
Quote:No it would not. A team that does not use TE to grab one at 4.
Newsflash:
We have a new head coach, a new offensive coordinator and a new playbook that hasn't been written yet.
Quote:No it would not. A team that does not use TE to grab one at 4.
Quote:Newsflash:
We have a new head coach, a new offensive coordinator and a new playbook that hasn't been written yet.
In 2013, Marrone's first year in Buffalo, Scott Chandler, a TE, was Buffalo's leading receiver with 53 catches.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/te...f/2013.htm
The next year (the year the Bills traded up for Sammy Watkins), Chandler was 4th in receptions with 47 catches.
The 53 receptions by Chandler in 2013 was more than any Jaguars TE caught in one season since 2010, when Marcedes Lewis caught 58 passes.
Keep in mind, neither team was exactly loaded at QB during those years.
Quote:In 2013, Marrone's first year in Buffalo, Scott Chandler, a TE, was Buffalo's leading receiver with 53 catches.
<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2013.htm'>http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2013.htm</a>
The next year (the year the Bills traded up for Sammy Watkins), Chandler was 4th in receptions with 47 catches.
The 53 receptions by Chandler in 2013 was more than any Jaguars TE caught in one season since 2010, when Marcedes Lewis caught 58 passes.
Keep in mind, neither team was exactly loaded at QB during those years.
and scott chandler isnt the athlete OJ is which makes him way more of a threat. Id be curious to see how scott was lined up and what routes he was running.
Quote:and scott chandler isnt the athlete OJ is which makes him way more of a threat. Id be curious to see how scott was lined up and what routes he was running.
It's true.
I'm no big TE at #4 proponent - but to assume this QB and staff couldn't utilize the player is a fool's errand.
If they make that unconventional pick - Hackett will inject the playbook with ways to take advantage of his talents.
Two seventh rounders - Koyack and Sterling - had games with 5 receptions and 40+ yards under Hackett's play-calling.
So - it's not hard to imagine that Hackett can do plenty more with a talent like Howard when he's running plays from his own book, and not Olson's.
Quote:and scott chandler isnt the athlete OJ is which makes him way more of a threat. Id be curious to see how scott was lined up and what routes he was running.
Quote:It's true.
I'm no big TE at #4 proponent - but to assume this QB and staff couldn't utilize the player is a fool's errand.
If they make that unconventional pick - Hackett will inject the playbook with ways to take advantage of his talents.
Two seventh rounders - Koyack and Sterling - had games with 5 receptions and 40+ yards under Hackett's play-calling.
So - it's not hard to imagine that Hackett can do plenty more with a talent like Howard when he's running plays from his own book, and not Olson's.
Exactly, guys.
I'd also like to see the down and distance situations they utilized the TE, and under what circumstances he was the primary target. Even though we have a very good set of WRs, I'd have to think if Howard were our first round pick, that somehow TE would get more targets because with his speed, he'd create more mismatches and ultimately, open things up more outside.
Quote:Wow. 43 seam routes on that '13 season. I'd love to see Hackett work that into some the playbook here. Maybe with a bit more than 7 targets, but there's a lot of variables that decide that.
Found that interesting too.
They had Thad Lewis , Jeff Tuel and rookie EJ Manuel throwing that season and ran the ball more than anyone so I wouldn't be surprised if Hackett uses the tight differently here either.
Quote:Found that interesting too.
They had Thad Lewis , Jeff Tuel and rookie EJ Manuel throwing that season and ran the ball more than anyone so I wouldn't be surprised if Hackett uses the tight differently here either.
First off, thanks for the links. Great info.
I can imagine even more seam routes here, considering:
1. We have better receivers here than Buffalo had in 2013.
2. Bortles is better than the QBs Buffalo had in 2013.
3. Assuming we draft Howard, Howard is faster and a better athlete than Chandler.
I would imagine some of the variables to which NYC referred would include:
-Down and distance
-Matchups/personnel
-the efficacy/lack thereof of our O-Line.
-running game.
Given the depth and the talent involved in this TE class, I would expect those numbers to change even if we didn't take Howard but take another TE. But if we took Howard, I would expect the seam to be utilized a lot more...actually the way I expected Thomas to be used.
I think it also has a lot to do with simplifying offense and reads for a carousel of QBs.
That's a route/audible that's easy for a QB to see, so that he can make a quicker/safer decision.
Quote:Maybe to you it is. But taking a TE at number four overall to be a Marcedes Lewis 2.0 seems more like a stupid decision and if anyone has lower expectations or similar expectations of that then they're just as stupid.
Taking a TE at number four needs to merit a player of a high caliber. A player that can command coverage his way. A player that can put a OLB or secondary player on their [BAD WORD REMOVED] or run them down the field during a run play.
Expecting a No. 4 overall pick to play on the same level as Gronkowski, Kelce, Olsen & Graham is plenty reasonable. Expecting him to last as long as Gonzalez and Witten is reasonable.
Considering that if we take Howard at No. 4 next month in this draft he's officially the highest drafted TE to ever be drafted since 1960. When the Rams took Billy Cannon No. 1 overall.
Just think about that. You're telling me this guy is so highly touted, regarded and graded as a dual threat and complete player at the TE position that he's somehow more worthy of being drafted ahead of hall of fame players like Mike Ditka, Kellen Winslow, Tony Gonzalez, John Mackey, Shannon Sharpe, etc. etc.
Please. Cut the bull [BAD WORD REMOVED] man. Do your homework. You don't take a TE at number four overall unless you think he's another once in a generational type TE. And a once in a generational type TE don't put up sub par numbers. And if he's averaging anything less than 700 yards receiving and anything less than 6 TD receptions per season he's a monumental reach.
Of course, taking a TE that early, you'd expect them to turn into a type of player such as (Gronkowski, Gonzalez, Sharpe, Gates, Witten, etc). BTW, if a team expects that a TE most likely will be at that level for a long time, I have NO PROBLEM with him being drafted that early.
If you know a TE is gonna turn out to be another Gronk/Gonzalez/etc.,, heck yeah, draft him.
But, expecting someone to be on that level right out of the gate as a rookie, that's really unreasonable (even though he "could" turn out that good instantly,,,, maybe).
I could put up with a pedestrian rookie season if the guy REALLY turns out to be a stud for a long time afterwards.
QUESTION:
If you knew a TE was going to be a Gronk/Gonzalez,, would you NOT draft that guy at #4?
You'd be out or your mind if you DIDN'T draft that.
Quote:QUESTION:
If you knew a TE was going to be a Gronk/Gonzalez,, would you NOT draft that guy at #4?
You'd be out or your mind if you DIDN'T draft that.
I guess it depends if we knew who else would be on the board at the time.
If we knew J.J. Watt would still be on the board at the same time, then no, I would not draft Gronk/Gonzalez over J.J. Watt.
Sub question: Is Gronk Gronk without Brady getting him the ball? Certainly he's a great player, but would we view him in the esteem we view him in with a lesser QB?
Quote:I guess it depends if we knew who else would be on the board at the time.
If we knew J.J. Watt would still be on the board at the same time, then no, I would not draft Gronk/Gonzalez over J.J. Watt.
Sub question: Is Gronk Gronk without Brady getting him the ball? Certainly he's a great player, but would we view him in the esteem we view him in with a lesser QB?
True,, if you knew you were going to get a JJ Watt type guy, you'd take him over a "Tony Gonzalez" any day, IMO.
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Jags to draft Howard. However, if they're pretty sure he'll end up being "elite", I have no problem with them drafting him at all.
That's the thing though, you can never be sure (as we all know).
No would have to end up better then Gates to justify pick.
If selected and Howard is great. If not than a waste with Cook and Fournette and cough qb there.
Quote:I guess it depends if we knew who else would be on the board at the time.
If we knew J.J. Watt would still be on the board at the same time, then no, I would not draft Gronk/Gonzalez over J.J. Watt.
Sub question: Is Gronk Gronk without Brady getting him the ball? Certainly he's a great player, but would we view him in the esteem we view him in with a lesser QB?
Yes, Gronk is the most talented offensive weapon in the league. Obviously he gets a boost from playing with the best QB ever but Its not that hard to separate his abilities from his QB and see hes arguably the best tight end ever.
Quote:Yes, Gronk is the most talented offensive weapon in the league. Obviously he gets a boost from playing with the best QB ever but Its not that hard to separate his abilities from his QB and see hes arguably the best tight end ever.
Most talented offensive player in the league?
That's a strong statement.
I like Gronkowski as a TE, but I don't know if I would go THAT far.
I might be persuaded by him being called the biggest matchup problem in the league, but most talented offensive player? I have to think about that some more before cosigning that one.
Quote:Most talented offensive player in the league?
That's a strong statement.
I like Gronkowski as a TE, but I don't know if I would go THAT far.
I might be persuaded by him being called the biggest matchup problem in the league, but most talented offensive player? I have to think about that some more before cosigning that one.
Not counting QBs, it can be argued he is pretty strongly considering he is also the best blocking TE in the league. Very few other players contribute to the offense no matter what the play call is.