Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:You keep saying 'the man is a free agent' like it mean something. It means he didn't reach a deal with the Ravens, unless you have an interview with his agent where he says they were determined to hit FA, it means nothing but that, he didn't reach a deal with the Ravens.

 

If we sign him after trading him, I will build a shrine to Dave Caldwell in my kitchen.

 

Its not just based on the number of free agents you sign, its based on the value of the contracts. If we kept Monroe til the end, then he signed for the biggest OL deal in history and we only sign a couple of mid tier guys, that will be considered a big net loss and we would have a 3rd rounder in 2015, unless you're from the Gene Smith school of 'a pick today is worth more than a pick tomorrow', that's a worse deal.

 

You neatly and conveniently ignored the point about him being better than what we currently have, that we dont know the value of the contract he will sign or how he or the players we have to replace him will perform once we have signed it. You're right, people can't admit they are wrong, they can't even admit that we don't know yet, they have to get in a wang measuring contest and claim everything is black and white. Welcome to the internet.

 

If the following things happen, it will be a good deal, as it stands I don't like it.

Monroe signs somewhere for a stupid money deal that he isn't worth.

We make a big splash in FA negating any comp picks we would have got.

Joeckel matches Monroe's level of play

 

None of those things have happened yet.

 

So if he signs an appropriately valued deal with another team, how does that change the analysis?

 

Either way, the Ravens would have given up 4th and 5th round picks for a guy who only played 11 games for them.  He didn't make them a playoff team while he was there.  He wasn't all Pro or Pro Bowl with the Ravens.

 

He didn't make us a playoff team while he was here.  He wasn't All Pro or even Pro Bowl while he was here.  We have 4th and 5th round picks for a guy not here.  Had we let him leave as a free agent, we'd only get a compensatory pick for him-not the two that this trade netted for us, and it probably would not have been a 3rd round pick-which is the highest compensatory pick the league offers, considering he was never All Pro or Pro Bowl caliber.  The highest it likely would have been is a compensatory pick at the bottom of the 4th round (and that may not have come until next year).  If this is true, to me, a compensatory pick at the bottom of the 4th round pick (in a best case scenario) that you can't trade is less than a mid 4th round pick you can trade, plus a mid 5th round pick you can trade.

 

What it comes back to is whether we got enough in trade compensation for him.

 

Well, we had him on the team and were willing to trade him away.

 

The team that offered the picks for him was not impressed enough with him to franchise him to ensure he stayed.  They were not impressed enough with him to re-sign him before he reached free agency.

 

We don't know of any other trade offers for Monroe.

 

Now it's my understanding the Jaguars were not actively shopping him.  If this is true, it is possible a bidding war may have ensued and we could have gotten more in trade in return for Monroe.  But that is speculation.

 

Considering the fact we had a viable replacement already on the roster in Joeckel, the fact a talent starved team like the Jaguars saw him as expendable, the fact the team likely would not have received more from the league in terms of compensatory picks if they simply let him walk as a free agent, the fact the team that traded for him didn't think enough about him to offer more than they did to the Jaguars, nor did they think enough of him to franchise him or re-sign him to this point, I don't see how a reasonable person can conclude Caldwell's trade of Monroe was "bad."

Quote:So if he signs an appropriately valued deal with another team, how does that change the analysis?

 

Because if he signs a deal which matches his status (5-10 OT in the NFL), then to me, that's exactly the sort of deal you want to make. A guy you drafted who has been nothing but a model pro, you pay him when its time. If its a deal that doesn't reflect his ability, then you can make a much stronger argument for trading him away.


 

Either way, the Ravens would have given up 4th and 5th round picks for a guy who only played 11 games for them.  He didn't make them a playoff team while he was there.  He wasn't all Pro or Pro Bowl with the Ravens.

 

Just because it looks like a worse deal for the Ravens right now, doesn't mean it was a good deal for us.


 

He didn't make us a playoff team while he was here.  He wasn't All Pro or even Pro Bowl while he was here.  We have 4th and 5th round picks for a guy not here.  Had we let him leave as a free agent, we'd only get a compensatory pick for him-not the two that this trade netted for us, and it probably would not have been a 3rd round pick-which is the highest compensatory pick the league offers, considering he was never All Pro or Pro Bowl caliber.  The highest it likely would have been is a compensatory pick at the bottom of the 4th round (and that may not have come until next year).  If this is true, to me, a compensatory pick at the bottom of the 4th round pick (in a best case scenario) that you can't trade is less than a mid 4th round pick you can trade, plus a mid 5th round pick you can trade.

 

The point about us not making the playoffs or him not making any pro-bowls is asinine as you well know.
Since the trade, a lot of people have jumped on the 'Monroe was never any good bandwagon', I totally disagree with that, he was a very good player for us and c
ompensatory draft picks are mainly based on their monetary value. If he signs for top 5 OT money, there is a decent chance we would still be big net losers in FA, although as I said if we are going to make a big splash of our own to negate that, thats another of the things that would make make this trade better.


 

What it comes back to is whether we got enough in trade compensation for him.

 

Well, we had him on the team and were willing to trade him away.

 

The team that offered the picks for him was not impressed enough with him to franchise him to ensure he stayed.  They were not impressed enough with him to re-sign him before he reached free agency.

 

We don't know of any other trade offers for Monroe.

 

Now it's my understanding the Jaguars were not actively shopping him.  If this is true, it is possible a bidding war may have ensued and we could have gotten more in trade in return for Monroe.  But that is speculation.

 

Considering the fact we had a viable replacement already on the roster in Joeckel, the fact a talent starved team like the Jaguars saw him as expendable, the fact the team likely would not have received more from the league in terms of compensatory picks if they simply let him walk as a free agent, the fact the team that traded for him didn't think enough about him to offer more than they did to the Jaguars, nor did they think enough of him to franchise him or re-sign him to this point, I don't see how a reasonable person can conclude Caldwell's trade of Monroe was "bad."

 

A 4th and a 5th is very hard to justify for a good young player at a premium position, whatever his contract situation IMHO although if the 3 things I outlined happen, it becomes a pretty good deal. We hope Joeckel is viable, but that's not certain yet and if a team is talent starved yet has enough of a glut of players in one position that their best player is available to be traded, then that suggests poor draft planning in the first place. The value we have lost by letting Monroe go for peanuts could have been less had we perhaps worked out a slightly unfavorable draft day deal to move down, or even taken a lower ranked player at a position of need rather than just taking Joeckel because he was the BAP. If Caldwell wanted to replace Monroe because he just thought he was no good, then I in my own insignificant armchair analysis think he is wrong.

 

What I would have liked to have seen is what I said after the last draft.

 

If Monroe kept up his level of play, then he deserved a new contract, we should be the ones to give it too him. The deal he signs will pretty much seal it for me, if its a fair price, then the my question will always be 'why didn't we pay it?'. He was the best player on the OL while he was here and we have the room to be locking guys like that up, thats what we should have been looking to do. Joeckel's rookie contract is not prohibitively expensive in terms of tying up too much money in the OL, its less than what the Colts are paying Cherulus, so it wouldn't be an unheard of sum of money to spend on your OTs and right now, we have stupid cap room and nobody to pay it too. If we front loaded the deal, we could cut or trade him in a few years if we needed the space. As it is, we created another hole with picks that are unlikely to adequately fill it.

Quote:What I would have liked to have seen is what I said after the last draft.

 

If Monroe kept up his level of play, then he deserved a new contract, we should be the ones to give it too him. The deal he signs will pretty much seal it for me, if its a fair price, then the my question will always be 'why didn't we pay it?'. He was the best player on the OL while he was here and we have the room to be locking guys like that up, thats what we should have been looking to do. Joeckel's rookie contract is not prohibitively expensive in terms of tying up too much money in the OL, its less than what the Colts are paying Cherulus, so it wouldn't be an unheard of sum of money to spend on your OTs and right now, we have stupid cap room and nobody to pay it too. If we front loaded the deal, we could cut or trade him in a few years if we needed the space. As it is, we created another hole with picks that are unlikely to adequately fill it.

Monroe didn't want to play for us, watch his tape this year. He didn't try, guys like that need to go.

Quote:<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bullseye" data-cid="146331" data-time="1394366053">
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So if he signs an appropriately valued deal with another team, how does that change the analysis?

 

Because if he signs a deal which matches his status (5-10 OT in the NFL), then to me, that's exactly the sort of deal you want to make. A guy you drafted who has been nothing but a model pro, you pay him when its time. If its a deal that doesn't reflect his ability, then you can make a much stronger argument for trading him away.


 



The point about us not making the playoffs or him not making any pro-bowls is asinine as you well know.
Since the trade, a lot of people have jumped on the 'Monroe was never any good bandwagon', I totally disagree with that, he was a very good player for us and c
ompensatory draft picks are mainly based on their monetary value. If he signs for top 5 OT money, there is a decent chance we would still be big net losers in FA, although as I said if we are going to make a big splash of our own to negate that, thats another of the things that would make make this trade better.


 


 

A 4th and a 5th is very hard to justify for a good young player at a premium position, whatever his contract situation IMHO although if the 3 things I outlined happen, it becomes a pretty good deal. We hope Joeckel is viable, but that's not certain yet and if a team is talent starved yet has enough of a glut of players in one position that their best player is available to be traded, then that suggests poor draft planning in the first place. The value we have lost by letting Monroe go for peanuts could have been less had we perhaps worked out a slightly unfavorable draft day deal to move down, or even taken a lower ranked player at a position of need rather than just taking Joeckel because he was the BAP. If Caldwell wanted to replace Monroe because he just thought he was no good, then I in my own insignificant armchair analysis think he is wrong.

 

What I would have liked to have seen is what I said after the last draft.

 

If Monroe kept up his level of play, then he deserved a new contract, we should be the ones to give it too him. The deal he signs will pretty much seal it for me, if its a fair price, then the my question will always be 'why didn't we pay it?'. He was the best player on the OL while he was here and we have the room to be locking guys like that up, thats what we should have been looking to do. Joeckel's rookie contract is not prohibitively expensive in terms of tying up too much money in the OL, its less than what the Colts are paying Cherulus, so it wouldn't be an unheard of sum of money to spend on your OTs and right now, we have stupid cap room and nobody to pay it too. If we front loaded the deal, we could cut or trade him in a few years if we needed the space. As it is, we created another hole with picks that are unlikely to adequately fill it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I would have liked to have seen is what I said after the last draft.

 

If Monroe kept up his level of play, then he deserved a new contract, we should be the ones to give it too him. The deal he signs will pretty much seal it for me, if its a fair price, then the my question will always be 'why didn't we pay it?'. He was the best player on the OL while he was here and we have the room to be locking guys like that up, thats what we should have been looking to do. Joeckel's rookie contract is not prohibitively expensive in terms of tying up too much money in the OL, its less than what the Colts are paying Cherulus, so it wouldn't be an unheard of sum of money to spend on your OTs and right now, we have stupid cap room and nobody to pay it too. If we front loaded the deal, we could cut or trade him in a few years if we needed the space. As it is, we created another hole with picks that are unlikely to adequately fill it.

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1.  I don't believe Monroe is a top 5-10 LT.  I would rate Joe Thomas, Duane Brown, Ryan Clady, Andrew Whitworth, Joe Staley, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Jason Peters, Michael Roos, Nate Solder, & Tyron Smith ahead of him, with possibly Williams in Washington, Glenn in Buffalo and Okung in Seattle above him.  If you include the top 2-3 LTs coming into this draft (Robinson, Matthews, Lewan), Monroe ranks further down, IMO.

 

2.  Compensatory picks are based not just on monetary value, but on any number of factors.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap100000...o-16-teams

 

In relevant part..."Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula based on salary, playing time and postseason honors. The formula was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a team is covered by this formula."

 

Even if the Jaguars did not actively shop Monroe around, it's worth noting there is no record of any team, of their own initiative, offering anything for Monroe the way Miami did for Branden Albert.

 

Were he TRULY a top 10 talent at LT, there is no way two different teams let him walk within the span of a few months.

Quote:No, no, no.  We have to beat on this thing some more.  It's the internet, and no one ever admits that they are wrong.  

 

Well, there is that.

Quote:1.  I don't believe Monroe is a top 5-10 LT.  I would rate Joe Thomas, Duane Brown, Ryan Clady, Andrew Whitworth, Joe Staley, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Jason Peters, Michael Roos, Nate Solder, & Tyron Smith ahead of him, with possibly Williams in Washington, Glenn in Buffalo and Okung in Seattle above him.  If you include the top 2-3 LTs coming into this draft (Robinson, Matthews, Lewan), Monroe ranks further down, IMO.

 

2.  Compensatory picks are based not just on monetary value, but on any number of factors.

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap100000...o-16-teams

 

In relevant part..."Compensatory free agents are determined by a formula based on salary, playing time and postseason honors. The formula was developed by the NFL Management Council. Not every free agent lost or signed by a team is covered by this formula."

 

Even if the Jaguars did not actively shop Monroe around, it's worth noting there is no record of any team, of their own initiative, offering anything for Monroe the way Miami did for Branden Albert.

 

Were he TRULY a top 10 talent at LT, there is no way two different teams let him walk within the span of a few months.

 

At best its 1/3 of the puzzle, the formular isn't expressly given, but its not likely to be heavily weighted on something as spurious as the probowl.

 

I disagree with your ranking of Monroe as would have everyone on this board the day before the trade, (funny that) to say any more would truly be beating a dead horse.

haha, he will be a free agent tmrrw.  Just think if we didnt trade him, we would be in the same spot without the 4th and 5th we got from Balt.

http://inagist.com/all/443127410519592962/

Monroe has re-signed with the Ravens, and the Ravens have avoided getting hosed.

Still got hosed IMO.

 

The 4th and 5th round basically just gave Monroe and the Ravens a little history. 

 

They still didn't get a discount on the free agent deal.

Quote:Monroe has re-signed with the Ravens, and the Ravens have avoided getting hosed.

 

They had to pay him--probably more than he would've signed elsewhere.

Quote:They had to pay him--probably more than he would've signed elsewhere.

True. Having a couple of picks invested in him probably allowed Monroe to drive up their price a bit to save face.

$37.5 million over 5 years = $7.5 million a year and the 7th highest paid OT in football.

 

If people think that's not a fair price for Monroe, then I'm lost for words.

Quote:$37.5 million over 5 years = $7.5 million a year and the 7th highest paid OT in football.

 

If people think that's not a fair price for Monroe, then I'm lost for words.

 

A decent price for Monroe.

 

Still don't think he is a top ten LT, but a decent re-signing, considering it would have been hard for them to draft a LT in this draft without moving up, and considering they were without their 4th & 5th round picks, it would have been harder for them to move up.

Quote:$37.5 million over 5 years = $7.5 million a year and the 7th highest paid OT in football.

 

If people think that's not a fair price for Monroe, then I'm lost for words.

 

It's a fair price, in my opinion.  

Quote:Monroe has re-signed with the Ravens, and the Ravens have avoided getting hosed.

 

and we can put this one to bed. The Jags got pennies on the dollar for Monroe. He wasn't a rental in the end. 

 

Quote:Still got hosed IMO.

 

The 4th and 5th round basically just gave Monroe and the Ravens a little history. 

 

They still didn't get a discount on the free agent deal.

 

Yes they did actually. Rotoworld's first line in the story was "Ozzie does it again"....as Monroe got less money than Saffold or Albert yet is arguably the better player. 

 

Quote:$37.5 million over 5 years = $7.5 million a year and the 7th highest paid OT in football.

 

If people think that's not a fair price for Monroe, then I'm lost for words.

 

Yep. Agreed. 

 

The Jags screwed up by jumping at the first low ball offer. They should have allowed a market to build before jumping on any deal. There was 4 weeks left till the deadline. 

You are a moron, plain and simple.  What part of he had 11 games left on his contract don't you understand?

 

Who would trade anything for a guy with 7 games remaining on a contract?   You seriously can't be that dumb, or maybe you honestly ARE that dumb.

 

7th highest paid salary for an OT sounds about right for Monroe, who IMO is on the cusp of being a top 10 LT, but is not near being a pro bowler, much less an all-pro.

I doubt Monroe would have stayed in Jax with the way the market has shaped up for tackles.

 

Caldwell got two picks for a player that would have walked at the end of the season and that would be two less picks this team has now.

 

There is no way to know for sure if Caldwell could have gotten more.  Anyone who says otherwise is talking out of their butt. 

Quote:You are a moron, plain and simple.  What part of he had 11 games left on his contract don't you understand?

 

Who would trade anything for a guy with 7 games remaining on a contract?   You seriously can't be that dumb, or maybe you honestly ARE that dumb.

 

 

Look in the mirror.,,,

 

Any team that had ideas on keeping Monroe past the "7" games would trade something for that player. You and others keep talking as if the teams were only dealing for Monroe as a rental and thats it. This isn't baseball. No one was trading for Monroe in the "rental" way, anyone who was trading for him was doing so with long term ideas in mind. If you can't understand that, thats your problem. The Jags cheated themselves out of more value by taking Baltimores low ball first offer quickly. Veteran Ozzie knew what he was doing and schooled rookie Caldwell. 

Quote:Look in the mirror.,,,

 

Any team that had ideas on keeping Monroe past the "7" games would trade something for that player. You and others keep talking as if the teams were only dealing for Monroe as a rental and thats it. This isn't baseball. No one was trading for Monroe in the "rental" way, anyone who was trading for him was doing so with long term ideas in mind. If you can't understand that, thats your problem. The Jags cheated themselves out of more value by taking Baltimores low ball first offer quickly. Veteran Ozzie knew what he was doing and schooled rookie Caldwell. 

You have no proof of this.  If you are going to state these things as facts, you should have facts to back them up.