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(02-12-2022, 08:57 AM)TheDogCatcher Wrote: [ -> ] (02-12-2022, 05:47 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]I hope not.
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I’d trade for him for one third rounder, not two. He’s lost a step and disappears. He’s not a #1 receiver.
if that's the case, I just spend the third rounder on a younger, cheaper version of the dude. why would I pay for older, expensiver, slower and disappeary if I could just get someone whose floor is that level and hope to grow them into something better?
(02-12-2022, 10:57 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (02-12-2022, 10:25 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not giving a top 3rd round pick for him. That's pretty much equivalent to the Rams or Bengals 2nd round pick. Some people are vague when they think of 3rd round picks but the 1st pick in the 3rd round is very valuable.
What are the odds that the 3rd round pick will be better than Amari Cooper?
The odds are extremely low.
If the Rams have shown anything, it’s that draft picks are overvalued and proven talent is much more valuable.
Not to mention. This specific draft class is extremely weak. I’ll take Cooper and give Trevor an immediate weapon who is still young.
Does it?
Donald, Kupp, Hopkins, Jefferson, Akers, all were their own picks. Without them, they don't win.
Von Miller had two sacks, I'll grant that; Ramsey spent the night getting toasted.
Please tell me you're not trying to equate the value of Amari Cooper to the value of Matt Stafford.
(02-14-2022, 09:51 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-12-2022, 10:57 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]What are the odds that the 3rd round pick will be better than Amari Cooper?
The odds are extremely low.
If the Rams have shown anything, it’s that draft picks are overvalued and proven talent is much more valuable.
Not to mention. This specific draft class is extremely weak. I’ll take Cooper and give Trevor an immediate weapon who is still young.
Does it?
Donald, Kupp, Hopkins, Jefferson, Akers, all were their own picks. Without them, they don't win.
Von Miller had two sacks, I'll grant that; Ramsey spent the night getting toasted.
Please tell me you're not trying to equate the value of Amari Cooper to the value of Matt Stafford.
What I'm saying is that we overvalue draft picks. Rams gave up draft picks for OBJ, Von Miller, Matt Stafford, Jalen Ramsey..... All proven stars. The odds that a 3rd round pick turns out to be a star is low. Obviously having Donald (best player in the league) and Kupp are great but the Rams don't win the SB without all the moves they made for their stars.
And are you really using Hopkins in this argument? A 3rd string TE who only played because the other dudes got hurt? And the Rams certainly could have won without Hopkins (3rd string no body), Jefferson (didn't do anything) and Akers (Henderson and Michel are just fine). However, they absolutely do not win the SB (or even make the SB) without OBJ, Stafford and Von Miller.
If I was given the choice between taking a gamble on some random 3rd round draft pick compared to Amari Cooper (a proven WR), I'll take Cooper.
All we have to do is upgrade the talent we already have. You’re not necessarily swinging for the fences when you sign a free agent. You’re looking to improve your team. Is Amari Cooper better than every receiver on the Jaguars right now? Yes he is. So if you can sign him for some sort of a reasonable amount, or you can trade for him for even as high as a third rounder, you do it. That doesn’t mean you can’t draft a receiver or two come April.
(02-14-2022, 10:27 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 09:51 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Does it?
Donald, Kupp, Hopkins, Jefferson, Akers, all were their own picks. Without them, they don't win.
Von Miller had two sacks, I'll grant that; Ramsey spent the night getting toasted.
Please tell me you're not trying to equate the value of Amari Cooper to the value of Matt Stafford.
What I'm saying is that we overvalue draft picks. Rams gave up draft picks for OBJ, Von Miller, Matt Stafford, Jalen Ramsey..... All proven stars. The odds that a 3rd round pick turns out to be a star is low. Obviously having Donald (best player in the league) and Kupp are great but the Rams don't win the SB without all the moves they made for their stars.
And are you really using Hopkins in this argument? A 3rd string TE who only played because the other dudes got hurt? And the Rams certainly could have won without Hopkins (3rd string no body), Jefferson (didn't do anything) and Akers (Henderson and Michel are just fine). However, they absolutely do not win the SB (or even make the SB) without OBJ, Stafford and Von Miller.
If I was given the choice between taking a gamble on some random 3rd round draft pick compared to Amari Cooper (a proven WR), I'll take Cooper.
eh. None of those vital players were acquired for mid-round picks, though. OBJ wasn't even a trade, that was a luxury signing we can't count on due to our differing rosters with a team like the ROMs.
If the assessment of Cooper is true, that he's slowing, going to be expensive, and get you middling or erratic performance, why not aim for a guy who is younger and might develop beyond that outlook?
If he's pricey, and we have the cap, I'd be ok with tossing a late pick to save the the cowpokes' cap. I am not using a higher pick on someone we'll end up needing to replace in 2 or 3 years, that's bad management. What if that third rounder ends up the next Cooper Kupp?
I would definitely trade for Amari Cooper...but not for a 3 and a 3. Maybe a 4 and a 6.
(02-14-2022, 10:51 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 10:27 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]What I'm saying is that we overvalue draft picks. Rams gave up draft picks for OBJ, Von Miller, Matt Stafford, Jalen Ramsey..... All proven stars. The odds that a 3rd round pick turns out to be a star is low. Obviously having Donald (best player in the league) and Kupp are great but the Rams don't win the SB without all the moves they made for their stars.
And are you really using Hopkins in this argument? A 3rd string TE who only played because the other dudes got hurt? And the Rams certainly could have won without Hopkins (3rd string no body), Jefferson (didn't do anything) and Akers (Henderson and Michel are just fine). However, they absolutely do not win the SB (or even make the SB) without OBJ, Stafford and Von Miller.
If I was given the choice between taking a gamble on some random 3rd round draft pick compared to Amari Cooper (a proven WR), I'll take Cooper.
eh. None of those vital players were acquired for mid-round picks, though. OBJ wasn't even a trade, that was a luxury signing we can't count on due to our differing rosters with a team like the ROMs.
If the assessment of Cooper is true, that he's slowing, going to be expensive, and get you middling or erratic performance, why not aim for a guy who is younger and might develop beyond that outlook?
If he's pricey, and we have the cap, I'd be ok with tossing a late pick to save the the cowpokes' cap. I am not using a higher pick on someone we'll end up needing to replace in 2 or 3 years, that's bad management. What if that third rounder ends up the next Cooper Kupp?
But what are the odds of that? That's my point. The odds are extremely low. Maybe 4% that the 3rd round pick ends up being Cooper Kupp.
(02-14-2022, 11:30 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 10:51 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]eh. None of those vital players were acquired for mid-round picks, though. OBJ wasn't even a trade, that was a luxury signing we can't count on due to our differing rosters with a team like the ROMs.
If the assessment of Cooper is true, that he's slowing, going to be expensive, and get you middling or erratic performance, why not aim for a guy who is younger and might develop beyond that outlook?
If he's pricey, and we have the cap, I'd be ok with tossing a late pick to save the the cowpokes' cap. I am not using a higher pick on someone we'll end up needing to replace in 2 or 3 years, that's bad management. What if that third rounder ends up the next Cooper Kupp?
But what are the odds of that? That's my point. The odds are extremely low. Maybe 4% that the 3rd round pick ends up being Cooper Kupp.
Then, again, I counter right back with my point I already made. In this article. It's saying you fork over a 3rd this year and a 3rd next year on a guy that's going to cost you 21M against your cap who has never hit triple digit receptions, double digit touchdowns or even 1,200 yards in a single season. He's techincally being shopped for a 2nd time and looking at his 3rd stop since being a former number four overall pick.
If you're willing to fork a pair of 3's over for a proven #2? Why not just offer those same 3's to move back up into late RD1 [potentially earlier] or early RD2 to land a younger, higher ceiling rookie with deep ball ability like a Dotson, Metchie III or Williams?
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(02-14-2022, 11:48 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 11:30 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]But what are the odds of that? That's my point. The odds are extremely low. Maybe 4% that the 3rd round pick ends up being Cooper Kupp.
Then, again, I counter right back with my point I already made. In this article. It's saying you fork over a 3rd this year and a 3rd next year on a guy that's going to cost you 21M against your cap who has never hit triple digit receptions, double digit touchdowns or even 1,200 yards in a single season. He's techincally being shopped for a 2nd time and looking at his 3rd stop since being a former number four overall pick.
If you're willing to fork a pair of 3's over for a proven #2? Why not just offer those same 3's to move back up into late RD1 [potentially earlier] or early RD2 to land a younger, higher ceiling rookie with deep ball ability like a Dotson, Metchie III or Williams?
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If we talking Jameson Williams, I do that in a heart beat.
My point isn't necessarily about Cooper at all and more about overvaluing draft picks. Proven players > Lottery tickets.
I do think you have to build through both the draft AND free agency. When we were good in 2017, we hit on both (Jalen, Jack, yannick,) and Calais, etc. It’s not an either or thing, but rather just maximizing talent acquisition how are you can.
(02-14-2022, 12:45 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]I do think you have to build through both the draft AND free agency. When we were good in 2017, we hit on both (Jalen, Jack, yannick,) and Calais, etc. It’s not an either or thing, but rather just maximizing talent acquisition how are you can.
I can definitely agree with this.
I think a lot of people questioned the Rams and their method (oh no. They have no 1st round picks until 2026) but look where they are.
The Jags are in a totally different position than the Rams (obviously). Bengals have a lot of homegrown talent and they went to the SB. You can do it in a lot of different ways.
(02-14-2022, 12:50 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 12:45 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]I do think you have to build through both the draft AND free agency. When we were good in 2017, we hit on both (Jalen, Jack, yannick,) and Calais, etc. It’s not an either or thing, but rather just maximizing talent acquisition how are you can.
I can definitely agree with this.
I think a lot of people questioned the Rams and their method (oh no. They have no 1st round picks until 2026) but look where they are.
The Jags are in a totally different position than the Rams (obviously). Bengals have a lot of homegrown talent and they went to the SB. You can do it in a lot of different ways.
It's not as black and white as you're making it. It depends on whether you are looking for success over a longer stretch. There's no way in hell the Rams can sustain this. Hell, they got a little lucky to win last night. The Rams MAYBE have another year or two...maybe. Then they'll have to 'restock' somehow. Gonna be tough without draft picks.
(02-12-2022, 10:57 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (02-12-2022, 10:25 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not giving a top 3rd round pick for him. That's pretty much equivalent to the Rams or Bengals 2nd round pick. Some people are vague when they think of 3rd round picks but the 1st pick in the 3rd round is very valuable.
What are the odds that the 3rd round pick will be better than Amari Cooper?
The odds are extremely low.
at $20 million per year for the next 3 years, there are much better ways to spend our $$. WR is probably the position where one can find really good quality in the top 3 rounds.
(02-14-2022, 12:58 PM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 12:50 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I can definitely agree with this.
I think a lot of people questioned the Rams and their method (oh no. They have no 1st round picks until 2026) but look where they are.
The Jags are in a totally different position than the Rams (obviously). Bengals have a lot of homegrown talent and they went to the SB. You can do it in a lot of different ways.
It's not as black and white as you're making it. It depends on whether you are looking for success over a longer stretch. There's no way in hell the Rams can sustain this. Hell, they got a little lucky to win last night. The Rams MAYBE have another year or two...maybe. Then they'll have to 'restock' somehow. Gonna be tough without draft picks.
The Rams definitely are extreme case. No doubt they had a window. however they completed the task during that window as planned.
(02-14-2022, 12:45 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]I do think you have to build through both the draft AND free agency. When we were good in 2017, we hit on both (Jalen, Jack, yannick,) and Calais, etc. It’s not an either or thing, but rather just maximizing talent acquisition how are you can.
this all the way.
If you go all in on FA/trades, your window is gonna slam shut with a quickness. If you do the opposite and bank solely on darft picks, you'll never stop the cycle of rebuilding and development of immature talent.
I’ve been linked to the Broncos sale too.
(02-14-2022, 01:32 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 12:58 PM)RicoTx Wrote: [ -> ]It's not as black and white as you're making it. It depends on whether you are looking for success over a longer stretch. There's no way in hell the Rams can sustain this. Hell, they got a little lucky to win last night. The Rams MAYBE have another year or two...maybe. Then they'll have to 'restock' somehow. Gonna be tough without draft picks.
The Rams definitely are extreme case. No doubt they had a window. however they completed the task during that window as planned.
Give me the Steelers model. Build to fight for your division, be good enough for playoffs. The more you get into the post season the better your odds.
We saw the all in approach in 99 and we paid hard. I didn't want it to work out for the Rams but good for Stafford.
Why spend Draft picks when the Cowboys are close to cutting him. I would not save them and trade for that contract. Wait till they cut him or trade for someone else who ain't already signed up for 20 million a year.
(02-14-2022, 07:53 PM)Jags@dajugular Wrote: [ -> ]Why spend Draft picks when the Cowboys are close to cutting him. I would not save them and trade for that contract. Wait till they cut him or trade for someone else who ain't already signed up for 20 million a year.
...probably because if they cut him he ain't even entertaining calls from the 904 area code.
but I gotta agree, look at other teams with tight cap or over the cap situations - if someone is worth it, they wiggle around to make room for the dude.
If a team resolves to move on from your price tag, it probably says something about you - either they overpaid, or you're no longer expected to play at the level they're on the hook to pay.
If someone else wants to pay him 20M, I wish them both well.
(02-14-2022, 12:45 PM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]I do think you have to build through both the draft AND free agency. When we were good in 2017, we hit on both (Jalen, Jack, yannick,) and Calais, etc. It’s not an either or thing, but rather just maximizing talent acquisition how are you can.
Not necessarily. Just look at the Bucs. They drafted a lot of good WRs and LBs to build the team then traded up and drafted the final pieces Brady and Gronk to take them to the top.
(02-15-2022, 09:17 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (02-14-2022, 07:53 PM)Jags@dajugular Wrote: [ -> ]Why spend Draft picks when the Cowboys are close to cutting him. I would not save them and trade for that contract. Wait till they cut him or trade for someone else who ain't already signed up for 20 million a year.
...probably because if they cut him he ain't even entertaining calls from the 904 area code.
The good news is in this transient world of cell phones, most of our front office and coaching staff probably don't even have 904 area codes so we should be ok.
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