(03-10-2022, 10:58 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2022, 09:09 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Again, you're wanting to shell out a pair or 3RD picks in a deep WR class with a guy that's going to warrant a contract negotiation at the end of the year with a 20M+ cap hit as it stands. No thank you.
I think people also forget that he's put up those numbers while playing on better football teams with more talent around him. Even when you go back and look at what he did in Oakland. Michael Crabtree was matching him step-for-step on the stat sheet. When you look at what he's done in Dallas. He's getting virtually matched again step-for-step by guys like Lamb, Schultz and Gallup.
You're expecting him to come in here and be "the guy" where he's never played on any team in his career that didn't have at least 2 - 3 other guys on it that were capable of matching him on the stat sheet. You're really rolling the dice here.
Again, in this scenario, at going on 28 years old in June this year, why would this be his 3rd stop in nearly 8 seasons? And, the 2nd time he would be traded? There's something to be said about that. Is he inconsistent during the regular season? Does he show lapses or lull moments during practices? Is he just a guy? Because there's a good chance in this scenario, you [BLEEP] around and find out the hard way.
He was getting a lot of help around him during his career so far. And he was never able to justify where he was ultimately drafted from his class. You think Dallas traded for him expecting him to put up those kind of numbers above? No. They didn't. They wanted him to be "the guy" and he never elevated himself to that level and that's why they had to go out and draft a guy like CeeDee Lamb.
I am telling you. This team will have buyer's remorse if they bite on a trade for Cooper. I bet he'll be lucky to hit 70 catches, 750 yards and 4 TD's on this offense as the WR1. Because we simply DO NOT have the supporting cast right now to help off set any shortcoming's of his game.
Wait it out. Let Dallas cut him. Make him a fair offer in free agency when the market opens up and go from there. Giving up any draft picks in this class or next year's class though? Just stupid.
He wouldn't cost nearly that much. Dallas is likely gonna cut him. They will take much less than a pair of 3rd round picks. We could also agree to re-work his deal to a much more cap friendly number upon him arriving after the trade. That's how a lot of these trades get done. Cooper is worlds better than any receiver we currently have on the roster and trading for him would not change my draft plans at all. I still take a WR on day 2 of the draft, no matter what. We need a completely re-built receiving unit.
As far as "rolling the dice," of course we are. We have to. We currently have the worst WR's in the NFL. Something needs to be done. A #2 WR on another team would be a #1 here and would improve our receiving unit tremendously. If I were GM, I would make sure we land one of these WR's via a trade, D.K. Metcalf, Tyler Lockett or Amari Cooper. I cannot put into words how important it is that we land one of these players. There is no WR's in free agency worth targeting. We have to get one in a trade.
Again. I am in agreement with you on Cooper's ability. I just don't think you fork over 3rd RD selections for him. Which is what jump started this entire thread based upon the link/article that was provided. This team has four picks in the sixth round. There's really no reason to sit on all of those.
I wouldn't mind shelling out a pair of sixth round picks and a fourth round pick for Cooper. I would STILL want to see this team take the other sixth round picks and possibly fifth round pick to climb back up into the bottom of RD3 and land a quality player with starting potential.
I agree that you're going to have to land another WR or possibly two in this year's draft. However, I also don't want to get overly carried away with that position in particular given that Doug Pederson's fiver year stint in Philadelphia NEVER featured a WR that put up triple digit numbers in receptions, never cracked 1,000 yards in receiving or double digit's in TD's.
During his press conference here he made it pretty clear that having a viable option at TE is crucial to his offense and any QB's success philosophically. If you look at how he treated the running game he also had that going with a healthy rotation. He seems to be like a pool player when it comes to the WR position. He would tend to "call his pocket" in certain situations.
I think he'll be able to make magic out of lunch meat with this market at WR. I think he'll find a good group of guys between the market opening up and the draft. I do think the TE position and RB position are being heavily overlooked by the majority of our fanbase and local pundits though.
Zach Ertz is very much in play here. I think you have to be optimistic about Dan Arnold. I agree with you, again, about McBride being completely on the table if he's there at 33 and a run is made at WR on the opening night of the draft. I think you're going to see them looking at a good mix of RB's next week that fit Pederson's style of play while also trying to ensure they have a decent level of talent there while Robinson and Etienne return from injuries.
This is why I didn't sweat the whole Cam Robinson tag again this year. I think with the RPO it's going to enable Lawrence to get the ball in and out of his hands. He's going to be looking for a TE or two depending on the formation and then he's going to be getting a good balance of assistance with the running game. I like Allen Robinson coming back here. I wouldn't mind Allen Lazard coming back here. I think you have to consider Russell Gage as well. Cedrick Wilson and Deonte Harris are decent pick-up's.
I don't think you have to roll the dice with premium draft picks for Cooper though in this current situation.
(03-10-2022, 01:25 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2022, 10:58 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]He wouldn't cost nearly that much. Dallas is likely gonna cut him. They will take much less than a pair of 3rd round picks. We could also agree to re-work his deal to a much more cap friendly number upon him arriving after the trade. That's how a lot of these trades get done. Cooper is worlds better than any receiver we currently have on the roster and trading for him would not change my draft plans at all. I still take a WR on day 2 of the draft, no matter what. We need a completely re-built receiving unit.
As far as "rolling the dice," of course we are. We have to. We currently have the worst WR's in the NFL. Something needs to be done. A #2 WR on another team would be a #1 here and would improve our receiving unit tremendously. If I were GM, I would make sure we land one of these WR's via a trade, D.K. Metcalf, Tyler Lockett or Amari Cooper. I cannot put into words how important it is that we land one of these players. There is no WR's in free agency worth targeting. We have to get one in a trade.
Again. I am in agreement with you on Cooper's ability. I just don't think you fork over 3rd RD selections for him. Which is what jump started this entire thread based upon the link/article that was provided. This team has four picks in the sixth round. There's really no reason to sit on all of those.
I wouldn't mind shelling out a pair of sixth round picks and a fourth round pick for Cooper. I would STILL want to see this team take the other sixth round picks and possibly fifth round pick to climb back up into the bottom of RD3 and land a quality player with starting potential.
I agree that you're going to have to land another WR or possibly two in this year's draft. However, I also don't want to get overly carried away with that position in particular given that Doug Pederson's fiver year stint in Philadelphia NEVER featured a WR that put up triple digit numbers in receptions, never cracked 1,000 yards in receiving or double digit's in TD's.
During his press conference here he made it pretty clear that having a viable option at TE is crucial to his offense and any QB's success philosophically. If you look at how he treated the running game he also had that going with a healthy rotation. He seems to be like a pool player when it comes to the WR position. He would tend to "call his pocket" in certain situations.
I think he'll be able to make magic out of lunch meat with this market at WR. I think he'll find a good group of guys between the market opening up and the draft. I do think the TE position and RB position are being heavily overlooked by the majority of our fanbase and local pundits though.
Zach Ertz is very much in play here. I think you have to be optimistic about Dan Arnold. I agree with you, again, about McBride being completely on the table if he's there at 33 and a run is made at WR on the opening night of the draft. I think you're going to see them looking at a good mix of RB's next week that fit Pederson's style of play while also trying to ensure they have a decent level of talent there while Robinson and Etienne return from injuries.
This is why I didn't sweat the whole Cam Robinson tag again this year. I think with the RPO it's going to enable Lawrence to get the ball in and out of his hands. He's going to be looking for a TE or two depending on the formation and then he's going to be getting a good balance of assistance with the running game. I like Allen Robinson coming back here. I wouldn't mind Allen Lazard coming back here. I think you have to consider Russell Gage as well. Cedrick Wilson and Deonte Harris are decent pick-up's.
I don't think you have to roll the dice with premium draft picks for Cooper though in this current situation.
We are definitely in agreement on that. A pair of 3rd round picks for a guy who is almost definitely gonna be released would be crazy. Especially now that we have trade options. Seattle has said they will listen to offers for Metcalf and Lockett. I would take any of the 3, but we must get one. I would pay significantly more for either of the Seattle receivers, because they are not facing an imminent release.
I agree about Pederson's inability to develop a WR, but I suspect he's never had a QB like Trevor Lawrence and that could change a lot of things.
I also agree that TE position is very important in Pederson's offense. Again, this is a very deep TE class and we really need to draft a good one. Drafting a TE from the class, having Arnold come back and possibly signing a an underrated TE like Hayden Hurst could really help this offense. I'm not a huge fan of going after Zach Ertz though. He is older, is starting to slow down and would cost a fortune. I believe someone like Hurst would be just as useful and still has his best days ahead of him.
As far as Robinson coming back, I'll take a hard pass on that. He completely disappeared last season. Like he fell off the map. He's gonna want big money and he's not worth it. I'd rather trade for Metcalf, Lockett or Cooper. IMO, guys like Lazard, Gage, Wilson and Harris are really not much better than the guys we already have. They are just a bunch of 3rd WR's.
I would trade for Cooper, but giving up multiple mid round draft picks would be absurd when he's gonna get cut anyway, so we're in agreement on that.
(03-10-2022, 03:01 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2022, 01:25 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Again. I am in agreement with you on Cooper's ability. I just don't think you fork over 3rd RD selections for him. Which is what jump started this entire thread based upon the link/article that was provided. This team has four picks in the sixth round. There's really no reason to sit on all of those.
I wouldn't mind shelling out a pair of sixth round picks and a fourth round pick for Cooper. I would STILL want to see this team take the other sixth round picks and possibly fifth round pick to climb back up into the bottom of RD3 and land a quality player with starting potential.
I agree that you're going to have to land another WR or possibly two in this year's draft. However, I also don't want to get overly carried away with that position in particular given that Doug Pederson's fiver year stint in Philadelphia NEVER featured a WR that put up triple digit numbers in receptions, never cracked 1,000 yards in receiving or double digit's in TD's.
During his press conference here he made it pretty clear that having a viable option at TE is crucial to his offense and any QB's success philosophically. If you look at how he treated the running game he also had that going with a healthy rotation. He seems to be like a pool player when it comes to the WR position. He would tend to "call his pocket" in certain situations.
I think he'll be able to make magic out of lunch meat with this market at WR. I think he'll find a good group of guys between the market opening up and the draft. I do think the TE position and RB position are being heavily overlooked by the majority of our fanbase and local pundits though.
Zach Ertz is very much in play here. I think you have to be optimistic about Dan Arnold. I agree with you, again, about McBride being completely on the table if he's there at 33 and a run is made at WR on the opening night of the draft. I think you're going to see them looking at a good mix of RB's next week that fit Pederson's style of play while also trying to ensure they have a decent level of talent there while Robinson and Etienne return from injuries.
This is why I didn't sweat the whole Cam Robinson tag again this year. I think with the RPO it's going to enable Lawrence to get the ball in and out of his hands. He's going to be looking for a TE or two depending on the formation and then he's going to be getting a good balance of assistance with the running game. I like Allen Robinson coming back here. I wouldn't mind Allen Lazard coming back here. I think you have to consider Russell Gage as well. Cedrick Wilson and Deonte Harris are decent pick-up's.
I don't think you have to roll the dice with premium draft picks for Cooper though in this current situation.
We are definitely in agreement on that. A pair of 3rd round picks for a guy who is almost definitely gonna be released would be crazy. Especially now that we have trade options. Seattle has said they will listen to offers for Metcalf and Lockett. I would take any of the 3, but we must get one. I would pay significantly more for either of the Seattle receivers, because they are not facing an imminent release.
I agree about Pederson's inability to develop a WR, but I suspect he's never had a QB like Trevor Lawrence and that could change a lot of things.
I also agree that TE position is very important in Pederson's offense. Again, this is a very deep TE class and we really need to draft a good one. Drafting a TE from the class, having Arnold come back and possibly signing a an underrated TE like Hayden Hurst could really help this offense. I'm not a huge fan of going after Zach Ertz though. He is older, is starting to slow down and would cost a fortune. I believe someone like Hurst would be just as useful and still has his best days ahead of him.
As far as Robinson coming back, I'll take a hard pass on that. He completely disappeared last season. Like he fell off the map. He's gonna want big money and he's not worth it. I'd rather trade for Metcalf, Lockett or Cooper. IMO, guys like Lazard, Gage, Wilson and Harris are really not much better than the guys we already have. They are just a bunch of 3rd WR's.
I would trade for Cooper, but giving up multiple mid round draft picks would be absurd when he's gonna get cut anyway, so we're in agreement on that.
Seattle is listening to options for Metcalf? Didn't see that. I would give them next year's first round selection, the 65th overall selection in this year's draft in RD3 and a conditional 2nd/3rd selection also in next year's draft based upon what Metcalf produces on the football field in 2022.
Or... I'll give you pick numero uno and pick 65 for Metcalf and your picks 40 and 41 in RD2 in this year's draft.
(03-10-2022, 03:14 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2022, 03:01 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]We are definitely in agreement on that. A pair of 3rd round picks for a guy who is almost definitely gonna be released would be crazy. Especially now that we have trade options. Seattle has said they will listen to offers for Metcalf and Lockett. I would take any of the 3, but we must get one. I would pay significantly more for either of the Seattle receivers, because they are not facing an imminent release.
I agree about Pederson's inability to develop a WR, but I suspect he's never had a QB like Trevor Lawrence and that could change a lot of things.
I also agree that TE position is very important in Pederson's offense. Again, this is a very deep TE class and we really need to draft a good one. Drafting a TE from the class, having Arnold come back and possibly signing a an underrated TE like Hayden Hurst could really help this offense. I'm not a huge fan of going after Zach Ertz though. He is older, is starting to slow down and would cost a fortune. I believe someone like Hurst would be just as useful and still has his best days ahead of him.
As far as Robinson coming back, I'll take a hard pass on that. He completely disappeared last season. Like he fell off the map. He's gonna want big money and he's not worth it. I'd rather trade for Metcalf, Lockett or Cooper. IMO, guys like Lazard, Gage, Wilson and Harris are really not much better than the guys we already have. They are just a bunch of 3rd WR's.
I would trade for Cooper, but giving up multiple mid round draft picks would be absurd when he's gonna get cut anyway, so we're in agreement on that.
Seattle is listening to options for Metcalf? Didn't see that. I would give them next year's first round selection, the 65th overall selection in this year's draft in RD3 and a conditional 2nd/3rd selection also in next year's draft based upon what Metcalf produces on the football field in 2022.
Or... I'll give you pick numero uno and pick 65 for Metcalf and your picks 40 and 41 in RD2 in this year's draft.
That is what is being reported. I'd give up the #1 overall pick and Myles Jack for Metcalf, the #9 overall pick and a 4th rounder. We could still draft Jermaine Johnson at #9 and we'd have our pass rusher and a #1 WR.
Not sure but would love to add Collins and Cooper. Would fill 2 of our biggest needs
(03-10-2022, 03:45 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]How much would it cost to swoop in and trade for both of them? I'd trade for Collins and rescind Cam's franchise tag in a heartbeat.
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1502007349690707975
Would love to have La'el Collins. I wanted to draft him, but his stock plummeted after the reported murder investigation that he ended up having nothing to do with. I never believed he did have anything to do with it and I was yelling at the TV for us to select him once he fell to round 2 and round 3, 4, 5 and so on. Collins was my #1 overall player in that draft. It was just one of the many times the team has let me down. Collins can play OT or OG.
(03-10-2022, 05:18 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2022, 03:45 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]How much would it cost to swoop in and trade for both of them? I'd trade for Collins and rescind Cam's franchise tag in a heartbeat.
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1502007349690707975
Would love to have La'el Collins. I wanted to draft him, but his stock plummeted after the reported murder investigation that he ended up having nothing to do with. I never believed he did have anything to do with it and I was yelling at the TV for us to select him once he fell to round 2 and round 3, 4, 5 and so on. Collins was my #1 overall player in that draft. It was just one of the many times the team has let me down. Collins can play OT or OG.
Same, he was a first round talent that didn't get drafted because of that. He was damn good at LSU
(03-10-2022, 05:24 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2022, 05:18 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Would love to have La'el Collins. I wanted to draft him, but his stock plummeted after the reported murder investigation that he ended up having nothing to do with. I never believed he did have anything to do with it and I was yelling at the TV for us to select him once he fell to round 2 and round 3, 4, 5 and so on. Collins was my #1 overall player in that draft. It was just one of the many times the team has let me down. Collins can play OT or OG.
Same, he was a first round talent that didn't get drafted because of that. He was damn good at LSU
(03-10-2022, 05:18 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-10-2022, 03:45 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]How much would it cost to swoop in and trade for both of them? I'd trade for Collins and rescind Cam's franchise tag in a heartbeat.
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1502007349690707975
Would love to have La'el Collins. I wanted to draft him, but his stock plummeted after the reported murder investigation that he ended up having nothing to do with. I never believed he did have anything to do with it and I was yelling at the TV for us to select him once he fell to round 2 and round 3, 4, 5 and so on. Collins was my #1 overall player in that draft. It was just one of the many times the team has let me down. Collins can play OT or OG.
https://youtu.be/6T2wcBJ-DRc
Pretty good breakdown on him from Mikerophone. Saw this last year. Really feel for him. Glad it all ultimately worked out.
Edit: Looking at him now since the 2019 extension. I can see why Dallas is shopping him.
In 2020 he ended up on IR after a car accident. In 2021 he was busted and suspended for 5 games due to missing drug tests and then trying to bribe the drug tester to help him out.
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A different report said the Cowboys wanted a 3rd for Amari but would settle for a 4th. I say we offer 70 and 102 for both. Sure, Amari is overpaid but Collins is underpaid so it'd be about an average cap hit overall for two impact upgrades.
(03-11-2022, 11:59 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]A different report said the Cowboys wanted a 3rd for Amari but would settle for a 4th. I say we offer 70 and 102 for both. Sure, Amari is overpaid but Collins is underpaid so it'd be about an average cap hit overall for two impact upgrades.
Has Cam signed his tag yet? If he has, there's no point in trading for Collins.
If he hasn't signed the tag yet, then they could rescind his tag and make a move for Collins.
I'd also trade for Amari with an agreement in place to restructure his contract as part of the deal. No thanks at paying him $20m per.
Not giving up any selections in RD3 in this year's class for Cooper and I am not really interested in Collins. Collins didn't play in 2020 and was on IR and he's a known doper in the NFL now after missing 5 games with a suspension last year. Too risky for this roster at the moment on a guy like that. He actually seems very immature with his decision making.
I would give up picks 103 (4th RD) and pick 196 (6th RD) for Amari Cooper. That's it. Not going any higher than that.
Collins would also more than likely play at RT, not LT. So, not sure why Robinson signing or rescinding on his tag would matter in the decision making here. If Baalke is dead set on getting an upgrade at RT. I commend him. Because the team needs it based upon Taylor's regression since they drafted him. However, again. I am not giving up any selections in the top 100 for him.
If you think he's an instant starter at RT? And he's been vetted and you think you can rely on him to not make stupid decisions again like he did last year while also holding up physically (he does have some injury concerns, again, didn't play in 2020, didn't finish in 2016) then, go for it. I'll give you 153 (5th RD) and 179 (6th RD) and MAYBE....MAYBE... a fourth round pick in next year's draft. Again. That's it. Not going any higher than that.
And the logic behind these picks is pretty simple. It's not that bad of a draft class at WR and T. And, you have to factor in that we're looking at a new offensive system that's rooted in the RPO. This means the burden falls on Lawrence virtually on every snap. He's going to have to read the defense completely, understand what he's seeing out there and trust what he's seeing to get the football in and out of his hands. I don't think we're going to need crazy athletes at LT and RT this year to make it work. I think you could also package up these same draft picks that I would be willing to fork over for Cooper and Collins to find adequate talent and players that are younger, cheaper and just as promising to address those needs there.
Dallas is hurting more in this scenario. They're trading away close to a total of 17% in cap hits this year with Cooper and Collins while this team gains two quality starters (potentially) in exchange for picks 103, 153, 179 & 196. That's beyond fair compensation IMHO. The way Jerry Jones likes to wheel and deal in the draft anyways he could probably use those four picks to weasel his way back into the top 100 for another coveted player of his with character issues.
(03-11-2022, 11:59 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]A different report said the Cowboys wanted a 3rd for Amari but would settle for a 4th. I say we offer 70 and 102 for both. Sure, Amari is overpaid but Collins is underpaid so it'd be about an average cap hit overall for two impact upgrades.
Just because Cooper has a costly contract now, doesn't mean we'd get stuck with it. You can always trade for him and re-negotiate or extend his deal to make it more cap friendly. It's done all the time.
(03-12-2022, 11:19 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ] (03-11-2022, 11:59 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]A different report said the Cowboys wanted a 3rd for Amari but would settle for a 4th. I say we offer 70 and 102 for both. Sure, Amari is overpaid but Collins is underpaid so it'd be about an average cap hit overall for two impact upgrades.
Just because Cooper has a costly contract now, doesn't mean we'd get stuck with it. You can always trade for him and re-negotiate or extend his deal to make it more cap friendly. It's done all the time.
If the player consents, which there would really be no reason for Amari to do. Mike Williams just got 3/60 which is exactly what is left on Amari's deal.
The reason Amari would renegotiate is if he was worried the alternative is getting cut and then not being able to get nearly as much on the open market. But he would, so he has the contract leverage.
(03-12-2022, 03:01 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Damn
https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/...3LsJRDMQPg
My offer was better. LOL.
Dallas basically swapped 6th RD picks with Cleveland and only really gained a 5th RD pick out of this trade. That's [BLEEP] INSANE!
You could have easily forked over a 4th. Hell, you could have probably got away with giving up just the 5th RD pick and one of those four 6th RD picks that will be lucky to make the final roster for Cooper.
(03-12-2022, 03:05 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (03-12-2022, 03:01 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Damn
https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/...3LsJRDMQPg
My offer was better. LOL.
Dallas basically swapped 6th RD picks with Cleveland and only really gained a 5th RD pick out of this trade. That's [BLEEP] INSANE!
You could have easily forked over a 4th. Hell, you could have probably got away with giving up just the 5th RD pick and one of those four 6th RD picks that will be lucky to make the final roster for Cooper.
Makes me think we go hard after A Rob and won't have to give up a pick