(05-26-2023, 09:59 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-24-2023, 02:25 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I think we agree about this.
If you thought that absolutely all gay people were born that way and stuck that way, and the same for straight people, you would not have much reason to care about anything that might confuse a child. Confusing a child would be temporary, if everyone is basically born with their sexuality predetermined, each kid ends up in the same place whether an adult confuses them or not.
But I don't think that's your opinion.
I think what you are trying to say is that adults rarely if ever change their sexuality, but lots of kids are malleable. Even if the kids aren't willfully choosing their sexual feelings as they develop, many kids are malleable to outside influences. And because they are malleable, adults should be very cautious about what is presented to kids.
Right?
That's not what I was getting at.
I think it is biological, but not black and white.
I think there is a reason why scientists are still somewhat mystified with the fine line between gender development and the chromosomes - the rapid evolutionary change (weakening) of the Y chromosome - and trying to identify genes that are associated with those individuals who come from the womb with various "compromised" versions of Y chromosomes.
I do believe that the Y chromosome's volatility and the way it does or does not repeat readily in the DNA sequence is a possible/plausible explanation for the wide range of "feminine" qualities and instincts that many humans feel despite their actual physical male gender.
Without getting into a bunch of science journal stuff, we can just say that I believe (and I'm far from alone) that the formation of our DNA will predispose us to a very binary sexual nature more often than not, but that some individuals end up in the "grey area" (which I mentioned in the post you quoted, but you skated past that.)
Those are the folks (kids especially) I think are susceptible to being confused while still trying to figure out their own true nature.
I don't believe those of us that came out of the oven conventionally baked one way or the other have very much wiggle room to be swayed.
Now, an important note on all of this that I'll reiterate, is that young children simply don't need to have sexuality in any form thrown in their face prematurely. And yes, various groups are seeking to do that way too early in their development for different reasons. That [BLEEP] sucks. And it really sucks that it is now hyper-politicized.
What do we disagree about again?
Yes some kids might have a chromosomal or fetal brain development tending towards queerness.
And most people will never have queer feelings no matter what they get exposed to as children.
And many other kids are malleable, which is the same thing as saying they are in a gray area.
You said it, I said it, but you don't think I said it?
What am I missing?
This whole thing is about control of children by the state and reducing the decision making by the parents. There was a case in Britain where the state told the parents the healthcare choices of their child was up to them because healthcare was socialized not the parents. Schools are doing it as well. In fact I am for a voucher program where the parents can decide what school gets to teach their child because of this. My daughter is a teacher and also (remarkably) is in favor of it.
(05-27-2023, 12:13 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (05-26-2023, 09:59 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]That's not what I was getting at.
I think it is biological, but not black and white.
I think there is a reason why scientists are still somewhat mystified with the fine line between gender development and the chromosomes - the rapid evolutionary change (weakening) of the Y chromosome - and trying to identify genes that are associated with those individuals who come from the womb with various "compromised" versions of Y chromosomes.
I do believe that the Y chromosome's volatility and the way it does or does not repeat readily in the DNA sequence is a possible/plausible explanation for the wide range of "feminine" qualities and instincts that many humans feel despite their actual physical male gender.
Without getting into a bunch of science journal stuff, we can just say that I believe (and I'm far from alone) that the formation of our DNA will predispose us to a very binary sexual nature more often than not, but that some individuals end up in the "grey area" (which I mentioned in the post you quoted, but you skated past that.)
Those are the folks (kids especially) I think are susceptible to being confused while still trying to figure out their own true nature.
I don't believe those of us that came out of the oven conventionally baked one way or the other have very much wiggle room to be swayed.
Now, an important note on all of this that I'll reiterate, is that young children simply don't need to have sexuality in any form thrown in their face prematurely. And yes, various groups are seeking to do that way too early in their development for different reasons. That [BLEEP] sucks. And it really sucks that it is now hyper-politicized.
What do we disagree about again?
Yes some kids might have a chromosomal or fetal brain development tending towards queerness.
And most people will never have queer feelings no matter what they get exposed to as children.
And many other kids are malleable, which is the same thing as saying they are in a gray area.
You said it, I said it, but you don't think I said it?
What am I missing?
"lots of kids are malleable"
I think it's a very small number in fact, relative to your implication.
You seem to be implying a greater number than I believe is actually the case.
Sorry I wasn't clear on the point.
Perhaps we aren't that far off in this opinion.
I think most of the few kids that are in that grey area would likely find their way eventually, but there's no point in trying to convince them they are one thing or another, and it only serves to make an already difficult stage in life even more difficult.
I have talked to 4 girls in their early 20's that say they thought they were lesbians all through high school. It's anecdotal, but that seems a bit high to me. I think the gray area is quite large, because people want to be celebrated. If we, as a society, celebrate the wrong thing, it's going to bring a ton of converts, no matter what it is. We need to stop celebrating "pride."
(05-27-2023, 05:26 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I have talked to 4 girls in their early 20's that say they thought they were lesbians all through high school. It's anecdotal, but that seems a bit high to me. I think the gray area is quite large, because people want to be celebrated. If we, as a society, celebrate the wrong thing, it's going to bring a ton of converts, no matter what it is. We need to stop celebrating "pride."
I agree with this. The more we celebrate and give exposure to the Dylan Mulvaney's of the world and amplify them (especially on social media) with endorsements and make them "popular," I believe the number of kids/people following suit to try to reach tik tok fame, get endorsements, and become influencer "famous" will only increase. The copy cat syndrome for fame is real.
(05-27-2023, 05:26 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I have talked to 4 girls in their early 20's that say they thought they were lesbians all through high school. It's anecdotal, but that seems a bit high to me. I think the gray area is quite large, because people want to be celebrated. If we, as a society, celebrate the wrong thing, it's going to bring a ton of converts, no matter what it is. We need to stop celebrating "pride."
The point of celebrating pride is so that these folks that don't understand what's different about them don't feel lost in a wasteland of non-conformity that leads to depression and suicide at an alarming rate.
In that respect it is a good thing, and it should not be, and will not be discontinued because you're afraid kids are being converted when they are actually not being converted.
It's good that we are starting to agree that the way sexuality develops for some kids depends on what they are exposed to.
That is only half the problem we have in media today though. Some people in media acknowledge that kids can be influenced, but almost no one in media is willing to say the next thing: if you have any choice in the matter, it is better to be straight and cisgender. Straight cisgender people can usually reproduce without involving doctors or lawyers, they form longer lasting romantic relationships, and they don't usually need any surgery to feel like "themselves."
This isn't hate and is not meant to be hateful. I compare it to people born missing a limb. I don't hate them. I want to affirm them and help them be the best they can be, and we know that there are prosthetics they could use. But we all would agree, if we could wave a magic wand, we would have them grow that missing limb.
So that's the rub. Even if media will admit they are influencing some of the kids and increasing the queerness of the next generation, they mostly seem to say, "so what? You got a problem with that? Only a bigot would have a problem with there being more gay people."
It's a lose/lose situation for some. It's a win/lose for most.
I am sorry. I just can't. LEAVE. THE. [BLEEP]. KIDS. ALONE.
Save all that gender bending and alphabet soup social studies/programming for 9th graders and up. Let that be an opt in or out course for kids that are now teens and biologically developed and nearing adulthood.
Maybe if we spent the first few years of kids in school from ages 5 - 9 on the basics of being kind, civil, diligent, handling chores, being respectful and well mannered, something Japan has done now for years, by the time they reach their teens?
They'll be more mature and level headed than the average 18 year old American walking around with their heads up their [BLEEP] or glued to their phones trying to be the next big, trendy thing.
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(05-27-2023, 06:18 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-27-2023, 05:26 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I have talked to 4 girls in their early 20's that say they thought they were lesbians all through high school. It's anecdotal, but that seems a bit high to me. I think the gray area is quite large, because people want to be celebrated. If we, as a society, celebrate the wrong thing, it's going to bring a ton of converts, no matter what it is. We need to stop celebrating "pride."
The point of celebrating pride is so that these folks that don't understand what's different about them don't feel lost in a wasteland of non-conformity that leads to depression and suicide at an alarming rate.
In that respect it is a good thing, and it should not be, and will not be discontinued because you're afraid kids are being converted when they are actually not being converted.
This is an opinion. It's not based on data. We didn't have to celebrate left-handed people (who, yes, were persecuted at various times in history), for them to be accepted into society. We simply had to make it ok to NOT shun them. We don't celebrate Islam in this country, even though they are a marginalized group. Where's Target's Muslim collection? The simple fact of the matter is that LGBTQ is common in Hollywood, and those people have power over entertainment and marketing. They choose to use their power to celebrate their lifestyle. It doesn't need to be celebrated, and I think you are finally seeing people start to get fed up with the messaging. It IS affecting our kids. Plenty of data suggests this.
(05-27-2023, 06:18 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-27-2023, 05:26 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]I have talked to 4 girls in their early 20's that say they thought they were lesbians all through high school. It's anecdotal, but that seems a bit high to me. I think the gray area is quite large, because people want to be celebrated. If we, as a society, celebrate the wrong thing, it's going to bring a ton of converts, no matter what it is. We need to stop celebrating "pride."
The point of celebrating pride is so that these folks that don't understand what's different about them don't feel lost in a wasteland of non-conformity that leads to depression and suicide at an alarming rate.
In that respect it is a good thing, and it should not be, and will not be discontinued because you're afraid kids are being converted when they are actually not being converted.
Celebrating something that is giving these kids anxiety and depression and suicidal thoughts is wrong. They should be talking to someone they trust or a counselor who has no agenda who can help them process what they're feeling.
I personally don't agree with or understand homosexuality but I 100% understand anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts because I've been there and I would not wish that upon these kids, or anyone struggling with it for any reason, and trying to convert anyone is not the answer.
Kids need to be heard not influenced.
Being influenced by a society who doesn't give a rat's [BLEEP] about any of us is no way for kids to have to deal with issues.
(05-27-2023, 11:05 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (05-27-2023, 06:18 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]The point of celebrating pride is so that these folks that don't understand what's different about them don't feel lost in a wasteland of non-conformity that leads to depression and suicide at an alarming rate.
In that respect it is a good thing, and it should not be, and will not be discontinued because you're afraid kids are being converted when they are actually not being converted.
Celebrating something that is giving these kids anxiety and depression and suicidal thoughts is wrong. They should be talking to someone they trust or a counselor who has no agenda who can help them process what they're feeling.
I personally don't agree with or understand homosexuality but I 100% understand anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts because I've been there and I would not wish that upon these kids, or anyone struggling with it for any reason, and trying to convert anyone is not the answer.
Kids need to be heard not influenced.
Being influenced by a society who doesn't give a rat's [BLEEP] about any of us is no way for kids to have to deal with issues.
Let me clarify a couple of things.
I used the word celebrate in quotes when responding initially to L2L because I didn't really feel it was the right term.
My intent in whatever support I'm lending to the notion of a "pride" month is simply a desire for kids who may be lost trying to figure out why they are "different" may have some solace that there is a populace and community out there that went through something similar.
The notion of it being "celebrated" and possibly overly so, in my opinion, stems from the increased inclusion of queer characters and storylines in film and television. Folks feel like they are getting beat over the head with this message, and I can totally understand that. It seems almost ever present. I get how that is off-putting to those who don't sympathize.
Pride Month, Pride Parades, and various "celebrations" don't need to bother those of us it's not intended for.
I don't get pissed off at Columbus Day because I'm not Italian.
I don't get my panties in a twist on National Bacon Cheeseburger Day because I like Swiss and mushrooms on my burger.
There may be some reckoning or adjustment coming down the pike for Hollywood studios and production houses that issue lots of queer content to demos that largely do not "get it." That wouldn't surprise me, and I would be understanding.
I don't think calling for the LGBTQ community to not be "celebrated" or "validated" (which I find more accurate) is any sort of reasonable answer to anything.
It's not fair to the hundreds of thousands of kids that know they aren't traditionally heterosexual and are trying to figure out how to move forward in their lives.
I personally do not think the LGTBTQxyz community should be "celebrated." Many choose that life style and that is perfectly ok. But to separate one group to celebrated I can't agree with. It also depends on how you see the matter. I do not believe children are born gay. I believe they go through certain life experiences that swing them to that lifestyle. I also do not buy that young children show their sexual choice while young.
My very own Son loved to play with barbies and a girl vacuum up until the age of 5. I would of accepted him if he were later to be gay. He is now grown and not gay. He has never expressed interest in Men and now has his first child on the way. I believe some parents see "signs" their kids maybe gay and turn them down that route. Some awful parents even reflect their own feelings on their children.
The Alphabet Community: Tolerated? Absolutely! Respected? As long as it goes both ways then yes! Celebrated? Absolutely not. I am not putting one group on any kind of pedestal.
(05-28-2023, 03:14 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]I personally do not think the LGTBTQxyz community should be "celebrated." Many choose that life style and that is perfectly ok. But to separate one group to celebrated I can't agree with. It also depends on how you see the matter. I do not believe children are born gay. I believe they go through certain life experiences that swing them to that lifestyle. I also do not buy that young children show their sexual choice while young.
My very own Son loved to play with barbies and a girl vacuum up until the age of 5. I would of accepted him if he were later to be gay. He is now grown and not gay. He has never expressed interest in Men and now has his first child on the way. I believe some parents see "signs" their kids maybe gay and turn them down that route. Some awful parents even reflect their own feelings on their children.
The Alphabet Community: Tolerated? Absolutely! Respected? As long as it goes both ways then yes! Celebrated? Absolutely not. I am not putting one group on any kind of pedestal.
No one is asking YOU to celebrate anything.
Do you not see that?
Let's throw a parade and celebrate what we do with our genitals!!
Yay!!
(05-28-2023, 11:52 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-27-2023, 11:05 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Celebrating something that is giving these kids anxiety and depression and suicidal thoughts is wrong. They should be talking to someone they trust or a counselor who has no agenda who can help them process what they're feeling.
I personally don't agree with or understand homosexuality but I 100% understand anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts because I've been there and I would not wish that upon these kids, or anyone struggling with it for any reason, and trying to convert anyone is not the answer.
Kids need to be heard not influenced.
Being influenced by a society who doesn't give a rat's [BLEEP] about any of us is no way for kids to have to deal with issues.
Let me clarify a couple of things.
I used the word celebrate in quotes when responding initially to L2L because I didn't really feel it was the right term.
My intent in whatever support I'm lending to the notion of a "pride" month is simply a desire for kids who may be lost trying to figure out why they are "different" may have some solace that there is a populace and community out there that went through something similar.
The notion of it being "celebrated" and possibly overly so, in my opinion, stems from the increased inclusion of queer characters and storylines in film and television. Folks feel like they are getting beat over the head with this message, and I can totally understand that. It seems almost ever present. I get how that is off-putting to those who don't sympathize.
Pride Month, Pride Parades, and various "celebrations" don't need to bother those of us it's not intended for.
I don't get pissed off at Columbus Day because I'm not Italian.
I don't get my panties in a twist on National Bacon Cheeseburger Day because I like Swiss and mushrooms on my burger.
There may be some reckoning or adjustment coming down the pike for Hollywood studios and production houses that issue lots of queer content to demos that largely do not "get it." That wouldn't surprise me, and I would be understanding.
I don't think calling for the LGBTQ community to not be "celebrated" or "validated" (which I find more accurate) is any sort of reasonable answer to anything.
It's not fair to the hundreds of thousands of kids that know they aren't traditionally heterosexual and are trying to figure out how to move forward in their lives.
You are confusing acceptance with celebrating or validation as you put it. Look I can accept that you think you can fly but I refuse to applaud you as you leap off of a 10 story building. Most people can accept homosexuality but draw a line at this transgender crap. The need to tell a 7 year old child that they may be trapped in the wrong body is sickening. If a 30 year old man were to tell a 7 year old girl that it was ok to touch him the people supporting this idea of trans would be having a fit.
(05-28-2023, 05:31 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2023, 11:52 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Let me clarify a couple of things.
I used the word celebrate in quotes when responding initially to L2L because I didn't really feel it was the right term.
My intent in whatever support I'm lending to the notion of a "pride" month is simply a desire for kids who may be lost trying to figure out why they are "different" may have some solace that there is a populace and community out there that went through something similar.
The notion of it being "celebrated" and possibly overly so, in my opinion, stems from the increased inclusion of queer characters and storylines in film and television. Folks feel like they are getting beat over the head with this message, and I can totally understand that. It seems almost ever present. I get how that is off-putting to those who don't sympathize.
Pride Month, Pride Parades, and various "celebrations" don't need to bother those of us it's not intended for.
I don't get pissed off at Columbus Day because I'm not Italian.
I don't get my panties in a twist on National Bacon Cheeseburger Day because I like Swiss and mushrooms on my burger.
There may be some reckoning or adjustment coming down the pike for Hollywood studios and production houses that issue lots of queer content to demos that largely do not "get it." That wouldn't surprise me, and I would be understanding.
I don't think calling for the LGBTQ community to not be "celebrated" or "validated" (which I find more accurate) is any sort of reasonable answer to anything.
It's not fair to the hundreds of thousands of kids that know they aren't traditionally heterosexual and are trying to figure out how to move forward in their lives.
You are confusing acceptance with celebrating or validation as you put it. Look I can accept that you think you can fly but I refuse to applaud you as you leap off of a 10 story building. Most people can accept homosexuality but draw a line at this transgender crap. The need to tell a 7 year old child that they may be trapped in the wrong body is sickening. If a 30 year old man were to tell a 7 year old girl that it was ok to touch him the people supporting this idea of trans would be having a fit.
A. I'm not confusing anything. I was actually pointing out a difference between the terms and the unnecessary and misplaced use of the word "celebration."
B. I agree with the bolded and made that clear.
(05-28-2023, 05:34 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2023, 05:31 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]You are confusing acceptance with celebrating or validation as you put it. Look I can accept that you think you can fly but I refuse to applaud you as you leap off of a 10 story building. Most people can accept homosexuality but draw a line at this transgender crap. The need to tell a 7 year old child that they may be trapped in the wrong body is sickening. If a 30 year old man were to tell a 7 year old girl that it was ok to touch him the people supporting this idea of trans would be having a fit.
A. I'm not confusing anything. I was actually pointing out a difference between the terms and the unnecessary and misplaced use of the word "celebration."
B. I agree with the bolded and made that clear.
And this is where I vehemently disagree with you. Conservatives are not being asked to accept homosexuality. They are being told if they do celebrate it in all forms then they are transphobic, or insert what ever “ist” is supplied by the far far left. Until reasonable people start pushing back this BS will continue.
(05-28-2023, 05:45 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2023, 05:34 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]A. I'm not confusing anything. I was actually pointing out a difference between the terms and the unnecessary and misplaced use of the word "celebration."
B. I agree with the bolded and made that clear.
And this is where I vehemently disagree with you. Conservatives are not being asked to accept homosexuality. They are being told if they do celebrate it in all forms then they are transphobic, or insert what ever “ist” is supplied by the far far left. Until reasonable people start pushing back this BS will continue.
It sucks that so many conservatives feel that way.
Wish it wasn't the case, but I do understand why folks feel that way on some level. I do.
As I've mentioned in the thread - it does feel like we're being force fed "the message" a bit at times.
I wish it were simpler.
Understand that I just feel bad for these young people as they hit adolescence - don't understand why they are different - and need guidance beyond being told they are just perverted - need to be "fixed" and assume a heterosexual life.
Beyond all the statistics about suicide associated with gay kids unable to find their way, I've known two individuals that couldn't reconcile their own non-hetero nature with the guilt brought on by un-acceptance among their family and friends. They ended their own lives. I believe the numbers out there that suggest this isn't an uncommon tragedy - and I simply have compassion for each new generation of kids that have to go through some form of that inner turmoil.
I guess that's why I defend awareness/acceptance/validation, yet don't expect everyone to "celebrate" this group of people.
(05-28-2023, 05:57 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2023, 05:45 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]And this is where I vehemently disagree with you. Conservatives are not being asked to accept homosexuality. They are being told if they do celebrate it in all forms then they are transphobic, or insert what ever “ist” is supplied by the far far left. Until reasonable people start pushing back this BS will continue.
It sucks that so many conservatives feel that way.
Wish it wasn't the case, but I do understand why folks feel that way on some level. I do.
As I've mentioned in the thread - it does feel like we're being force fed "the message" a bit at times.
I wish it were simpler.
Understand that I just feel bad for these young people as they hit adolescence - don't understand why they are different - and need guidance beyond being told they are just perverted - need to be "fixed" and assume a heterosexual life.
Beyond all the statistics about suicide associated with gay kids unable to find their way, I've known two individuals that couldn't reconcile their own non-hetero nature with the guilt brought on by un-acceptance among their family and friends. They ended their own lives. I believe the numbers out there that suggest this isn't an uncommon tragedy - and I simply have compassion for each new generation of kids that have to go through some form of that inner turmoil.
I guess that's why I defend awareness/acceptance/validation, yet don't expect everyone to "celebrate" this group of people.
I can dig that..
(05-28-2023, 05:16 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (05-28-2023, 03:14 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]I personally do not think the LGTBTQxyz community should be "celebrated." Many choose that life style and that is perfectly ok. But to separate one group to celebrated I can't agree with. It also depends on how you see the matter. I do not believe children are born gay. I believe they go through certain life experiences that swing them to that lifestyle. I also do not buy that young children show their sexual choice while young.
My very own Son loved to play with barbies and a girl vacuum up until the age of 5. I would of accepted him if he were later to be gay. He is now grown and not gay. He has never expressed interest in Men and now has his first child on the way. I believe some parents see "signs" their kids maybe gay and turn them down that route. Some awful parents even reflect their own feelings on their children.
The Alphabet Community: Tolerated? Absolutely! Respected? As long as it goes both ways then yes! Celebrated? Absolutely not. I am not putting one group on any kind of pedestal.
No one is asking YOU to celebrate anything.
Do you not see that?
Yes. They are. They are intentionally targeting children because they see it as a societal goal to normalize sexual fluidity. By targeting my children, you are saying that I need to celebrate it, because my family is an extension of me. Take literally anything they are doing and replace it with Christianity and you can see how insane it is that we allow this to exist in our societal norms. Should we teach children Christianity in schools? It's been around a lot longer than gender theory. No? Why not? What if we just teach it to your children? That's cool with you, right?